Yahoo Message Number: 50322 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50322)
I know we have cussed-and-discussed shock absorbers for our rigs quite a bit over the past 5 years. But I have not had the need for new shocks until recently so I have not paid a lot of attention to the earlier posts.
It appears that Koni and Bilstein are the shock manufacturers of preference these days. How do you guys determine what model number is needed for our rigs? I drive a 40 ft. 2000 Allure with the independent front suspension and 12R22.5 Toyo tires.
It's time to start shopping,
Larry 2000 Allure 30485
Yahoo Message Number: 50325 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50325)
Larry, if I had it to do over again, I would put Road Kings sold by Henderson Alignment on my coach. I had someone talk me into the Koni FSD so I installed them. I cannot see any difference in the FSD and the old red Konis I took off. They are a bit more $$ but from the reports I have read here and on other BB's, they are way better than Koni. I would not even consider a Bilstein, they just don't have it for a heavy coach.
Don
'02 Intrigue #11427
Yahoo Message Number: 50327 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50327)
Larry,
My coach is a 40ft Allure also and near your production number. I am curious about what are you seeing in the handling while driving that makes you want to replace the shocks? I have been wanting to improve the steering and ride on front end in some way. Not sure if replacing the shocks will offer any improvemant. Or, if I need to get the front end adjusted. I plan to take the coach to JOSAM's in Orlando the first part of next year for a complete alignment, ride height check and a good suspension inspection. That may be an opportunity to have shocks replaced as well.
Let us know how your proceed.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 50330 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50330)
Thanks Don and Jim.
I'll look into your suggestion, Don. I don't think I have ever heard of that brand of shock.
Jim, I have had very good handling and steering with my Allure but I have noticed that, on humps in the road, the front end bottoms out much easier than ever before and the rebound is not dampened like it used to be. The front wants to bound up and down a little more than in years gone by. My shocks are going on 10 yrs old now and they have served me well but I suspect they're getting tired by now.
Yahoo Message Number: 50346 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50346)
Jim- I wouldn't expect any improvement on steering unless you have totally wrecked shocks on the front.
As to handling, the improvement going to new shocks can be pleasantly surprising, but enough to say WOW? That's possible if you go to truly outstanding (& truly expensive) shocks, or again, if your current shocks are obliterated. Most obvious dead-shock symptom is porpoising, i.e. front end rebounding after a dip.
You can go to Road King shocks http://www.roadkingshocks.com/ (http://www.roadkingshocks.com/) These are big bore, heavy duty valving, heavy duty price shocks, and you should be able to say WOW after you change over.
Koni FSDs or Koni Adjustables are a good basic choice. I haven't seen good longevity out of Bilsteins.
I'm puting together a double shock solution for my front end. We travel to Baja once or twice each year- bad chattery roads, and that has killed my Bilstiens in less than 10,000 on each of 3 coaches. Double shocks halve the load to each shock. I have no idea if this will be good or bad, but it will be fun to try.
Mike
I am curious about what are you seeing in the handling while driving that makes you want to replace the shocks? I have been wanting to improve the steering and ride on front end in some way. Not sure if replacing the shocks will offer any improvemant. ...
Yahoo Message Number: 50395 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50395)
Guys
I have an 07 Allure 42'with FSD shocks. Sense 5000 miles it has bottomed out on humps in the road. I finally got fed up and called Koni, they suggested that I try the old adjustible red shock set to max. I am still out on the judgement but they are much, much better. It this doesn't do it I'm going to bite the bullet and go with Road King at least on the front to see if they work.
Doug Sherar
Allure # 31453
Yahoo Message Number: 50397 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50397)
All
I am going to with Road Kings on my 07 Allure next week and will let the group know how it goes Jim
07 Allure 470
Yahoo Message Number: 50398 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50398)
Looking forward to your hearing about your results. I'm also thinking about biting the bullet on the Road Kings, I'm getting tired of the Konis bouncing twice on every dip we ride over.
Graeme Arnott
09 Allure CP #31690
Yahoo Message Number: 50400 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50400)
As soon as somebody has tried the Road Kings please let us all know, I am tired of the bottom out jaw breakers.
Frank allure 31425 wet
Yahoo Message Number: 50404 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50404)
I have an '07 42' Allure 470 with Road King schocks which were installed when I purchased it new one year ago. Do not believe that Road Kings will not bottom out. My first experience was crossing a bridge westbound on I-40 over I-35 in OK City. The road dropped about 6" snd I thought the schocks were coming through the floorboard. I have since had them bottom out, the last was two days ago while traveling to Yellowstone on Rt 26 which is under construction. I am also going to be in Albany where I hope to meet with Lonnie (Road King owner) to discuss this problem. If he is not there, I intend to drive down to Ca. to discuss this problem. Rod5206 '07 Allure 470 #31463
Yahoo Message Number: 50406 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50406)
Hi All,
I have watched the conversations on bottoming out for a while now. I have to make some comments and food for thought.
First, the shocks are not a part of the supporting suspension, they are an accessory to dampen oscillations caused by suspension movement. This being said, one of a couple things is happening. First the air bags are bottoming out, this could be because of incorrect ride height, the wrong bags used in the application, ride height valves used that do not have a restrictive orifice in it. The shocks may not be the correct length for the application, too long so it bottoms out with moderate suspension movement. This would indicate incorrect mounting position or a shock that is too long or too short.
Air Bags, the ride height should have the bag extended to 70 to 80 percent of its total height. The air in the bag should stiffen the suspension as it is compressed, as it increases the load on the bag, thus raising the pressure as it is compressed, if the compression can overcome the bag and bottom out, the bag is not the right one for the application. Low ride height will do the same thing.
If the shock is too long for the application it will reach the end of its travel before the air bag absorbs the jolt or bump in the road.
First, what is "bottoming" out? Is the suspension hitting a snubber, is the bag completely collapsing under a jolt, is the shock reaching this minimum length? The answer to this will tell us which way to go to correct the problem. Changing shocks until it rides better is not fixing it, it is putting a bandaid on the problem.
Spring suspension will bounce until the energy absorbed by the spring is dissipated, air bags are not a prone to doing this as the air bag only wants to get back to its happy spot....
I am in the Indian Head Maryland area. If anyone with this problem comes by this way and would like some help in figuring it out let me know. Something is causing this and it is not the shocks, they are being called guilty by association.
The coach should not bottom out even with no shocks installed. They are only a oscillation reduction device.
I hope this starts some thought processes.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50407 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50407)
Mike, that is my thoughts also, I have receintly purchased an 07 Allure 470, with only 9500mi and right away I noticed the bottom out syndrone, and the up and down with the front, bounce twice or three time per bumb, I thought the ride heigth was too low but I read up on the forum and found it to be within the margin recommened. Seem to me that it needs more air in the bags, but can you do this without damage to the system? and how? Maybe you can come up with the answer, but If shocks of this nature ware out in 9000mi I would be reluctant to purchase another set at the price they are..I have the Gold Color on the Front and Red on the Rear... maybe you know what brand they are, I was thinking they are the Koni??
Marvin, 07 Allure 470, 42' Tag, ISL 400, #31459
Yahoo Message Number: 50408 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50408)
Mike
This is exactly what I was told by a tech I trust in HHI. It is a air bag problem.
He said something about the tank for the airbags not being big enough to hold enough air at high enoungh pressure to keep the bag firm at the moment of impact?
Your thoughts
frank allure 31425 wet
Yahoo Message Number: 50409 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50409)
They are most likely Koni shocks. If the front end seems to bounce endlessly the bags may be too big, thus acting like a bouncing ball. It is hard to tell without examining one of these coaches. I can pretty well tell you if One ever gets to my area I bet it can be figured out. Suspension geometry is not rocket science, at least not in these coaches.
One of the first things that we need to know is what is bottoming out... The air bag, the shock, the front end hitting a snubber or stop.
If anyone is willing, lets find the real cause and fix
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50410 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50410)
The ping tanks purpose is to even out slight movement, actually it acts like a shock absorber. There are a lot of air bag suspensions that do not use ping tanks and they do not bottom out. The size of the ping tank determines air volume not pressure. The bigger the tank the more movement it will allow from the bag, as the pressure change will not be a quick due to air volume in the tank.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50411 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50411)
ANY suspension will bottom out given enough of a bump. That is why there is a stop block of some kind in the system. A system could be built to not bottom out, like the baja race trucks, but it is not going to happen on the average over the road vehicle. If one is hitting bottom, then the simple answer is to read the road and slow up at bumps. When traveling north of Whitehorse the road has great bumps, called frost heavies. They were easy to see far ahead, the scraps on the pavement, rubber laid down by panic braking, plenty of time to slow down. Yet I watched others go over them at speed and watched the 5th wheel almost go air borne. Then these same folks get to Fairbanks and wonder why they have bent axles and have to wait for two weeks for new ones.
Shocks only stop and control rebound. They are designed to allow the wheels to come up on a bump, then they slow the wheel going back down, over simplified. What I want from shocks is to stop the rebound the first time, not the third. Sounds like the Road Kings do that. If one gets a shock that will stiffing up the suspension enough to stop bottoming, I don't think one would like the ride. I had the wrong shocks on a Jeep, at the smallest bumps the ride was so harsh I was clearing the seat. The shocks came off quick. They were shocks designed for towing, i.e. to stop the rebound of trailers.
Leonard
97' Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 50414 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50414)
I am wondering if Koni quality has declined over the years. My shocks are now nine years old with 50,000 miles on them. Just had them adjusted to the firmest setting. The shop said they were in excellent condition with no sign of leakage.
Dale Loop
Intrigue 11240
Yahoo Message Number: 50416 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50416)
Call Koni and discuss your problem with them, they were about to help me. The Gold ones are FSD's and they did not work for me either. Replaced with the red adjustable and they are better. Have not put enough miles on yet.
Doug Sherar
07 Allure 470 #31453
Yahoo Message Number: 50417 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50417)
Call Koni and discuss your problem with them, they were about to help me. The Gold ones are FSD's and they did not work for me either. Replaced with the red adjustable and they are better. Have not put enough miles on yet.
Doug Sherar
07 Allure 470 #31453
Yahoo Message Number: 50418 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50418)
One more question
What it you adjust and put a little more air in the bag. What is the down side of raising the front of the coach say one inch.
frank allure 31425 wet
Yahoo Message Number: 50419 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50419)
Marvin, I would need to look at the coach.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50420 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50420)
Shocks are not going to fix the problem, they are a bandaid at best.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50421 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50421)
I cannot answer these questions without looking at the coach. The real problem is what needs to be discovered, when this is known the correct answer is simple.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50423 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50423)
Marvin
My 07 Allure 470 bottomed out from day one when I bought it new , I am going to try Road Kings and let everyone know what happens.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 50424 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50424)
Mike
This is very helpful but I haven't found anyone qualified to get into this kind of detail on my rig, I would love to get the issues checked because mine came from the factory bottoming out. Any ideas who might be able to help? Jim
07 Allure 470
Yahoo Message Number: 50427 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50427)
I am in Maryland, if someone comes to my house, shop I can tell you the answers. Anything short of that is pure guessing and that is not my cup of tea.
On another note, any good and I mean good, suspension shop should be able to figure out what is going on. The problem is most are too busy to want to fool with it.
I welcome the opportunity to figure it out.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50429 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50429)
Air bags come in diameters, heights, and weight capacity increments. Height will equate to ride height, as Mikee outlined below. Once you are up to the max diameter, there are a couple of increments (maybe) left on weight capacity.
There is a rubber bumper inside of the air bag for the coach to set on after deflating the bags, or in extreme cases to thump if the suspension doesn't have enough travel for the road & speed.
If you are bottoming excessively, you can increase bag diameter (same height) until you reach limits for clearance of all the stuff around the bag (brake lines, etc.) and get more weight capacity. To start, you need your current airbag model# which is on the bag assembly, and an inspection for whether you've got available girth adjustment. From there a good frame shop should be able to figure whether there are suitable airbag upgrades you could use.
As to rebound & porpoising (assuming you've followed the above to eliminate bottoming as much as possible), then you talk shocks.
Mike
Yahoo Message Number: 50472 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50472)
Marvin,
Our Allure is 26 numbers from yours and it also bounces more than I think it should, however it never bottoms out. We are currently on the Oregon coast and drove a hundred miles today bouncing almost continuously. I too am interested in a solution.
Jerry
'07 Allure 31485
Yahoo Message Number: 50479 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50479)
We have an 05 Allure 470...and have suffered the same problem the rest of you have. We have replaced shocks, ride height valves and had the air bags checked out, more than once. The ride improved sometimes, but returned to awful rapidly. We have an appointment at OMC on August 24 to have all of the above checked out and replace ALL shocks with the Road King shocks. We just can't take the ride anymore, so the Road King shocks are our next attempt at a better ride. We will get back to the group sometime in September, after taking a ride from Oregon through South Dakota and then back to Idaho. Wish us luck
Dick and Michelle Bain
Yahoo Message Number: 50480 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50480)
Jerry
I have only had a few times in about 3000mi of driving that it actually bottomed out, but I would not have considered the road to be all that bad, it was entrance to bridge or exit from bridge with hump...I surely think that it is the air bags as Mikee has referred.. Happy traveling..
Marvin, 07 Allure, 470 ISL 400, #321459
Yahoo Message Number: 50481 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50481)
Shocks may mask or hide the underlying condition, but they will not correct the condition, the underlying cause has to be corrected first.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50525 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50525)
Marvin/Jerry
My 07 Allure 470 31535 bottoms out on virtually any bridge abutment or rough highways, like most of ours in Calif.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 50569 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50569)
As there is an almost infinite combination of shock settings, spring rates, ride height and other possibilities I don't see how you can categorically say changing or adjusting shock settings will never solve a problem. There are times that is all it takes. I am not saying that is the case for everyone but there are so many possible variables, weight, speed, tires, air bag age and resistance, etc any one of them or some combination could be the cause/solution.
What is acceptable to one person in the way of ride quality might not satisfy another, different drivers, weight distribution and more can have an effect as well so there is probably no one solution.
Add to this that even though there are similarities among our coaches they are still actually custom built to one degree or another using the same suspension and shock adjustments across the board is guaranteed to cause problems or complaints. Not everyone is complaining about suspensions bottoming out either. I restore muscle cars. The auto manufacturers would use dozens of differents springs depending on engine, options, suspension packages, destination, etc. It drives me nuts that most restorers immediately throw away the original springs on the premis they must be junk (they might be, the might not) when the original engineers spent millions developing the right spring for each application. The choices in replacements are very limited in comparison and many restored cars do not ride anything like they diod when new. If the ride height meets original specs I clean the old springs, check them for damage and use them again - no problems after dozens of cars. There are too many factors involved for us to come to a universal solution for this problem or to reject any particular solution.
It depends.
I have also had race cars with shocks so stiff the shock mount would break before the suspension would bottom out. That is not a good solution but it can make a suspension stop bottoming out - always at the expense of something else
We had the front suspension ride height control fail on our coach a few years back. In order to get home I set it so the suspension was at full raised height. The front wheels would come off the road before that suspension would compress. As it was only a few miles I took the chance but a very small change in suspension parameters, including shocks, can have dramatic effect.
Does anyone know of a source for the ratings on different air springs? Coil springs and torsion bars are rated on the weight it takes to move/compress the spring some distance. I am just wondering if it might be cheaper to play with changing the air springs/bags than installing expensive custom shock absorbers. They aren't mechanically any more difficult to swap out than shocks and a whole lot easier and safer to handle than metal springs.
Does Road King offer a kit to change their shock settings? Years ago Delco offered rebuildable/adjustable shock absorbers but they didn't sell well enough.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50571 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50571)
Bob,
First we are not talking about race car suspension. I have a shop that does nothing but set up rave cars, you are right, a lot varies, but in these instances we are talking about "rocket science". Where a 1 lb difference can make a huge difference. These are sir suspension systems, air bags have a max weight, they should be sized to handle the load, oversizing is a problem with these... As the typical thought process is if a little is good a lot is better... Not the case with air bag suspension. If an air ride suspension consistently bottoms out, shocks will not correct the problem . one of several things is happening, wrong air bags, wrong shocks, or a combination of the 2. A lot of makers use "ping" tanks to level out or absorb dips, bumps, etc. use a ping tank with an oversized bag and it will bottom out all the time. If you go back and read one of my previous posts about max air bag lifting you can see a small size change can make a huge difference.
I agree with you, ride quality is a personal opinion, some like soft, some like firm, etc. That fact is no different in race cars, that is why every driver wants (needs) a different set up... I wish it were not that way, we could have one system for each track and it would be a lot easier..But bottoming out is not ride preference. it is a flaw in the installation or design of the system. In our truck shop where we add axles, etc to make heavy haulers, we routinely change components to suit or fit the job, but every change is a trade off... A truck set up to haul 120K will not ride good at 60K... The bags are typically under inflated at 60k and they will bottom out etc... Likewise a truck set up for 60K will not ride good at 120K , the bags are too tight to offer any absorption. It is somewhat akin to setting up a race suspension, but with a lot more latitude... as left, right, turns etc are not a huge factor... In trucks shocks are purely to dampen motion, they are not progressive, and usually are 50/50 type shocks. These coaches are really just straight trucks that folks what to ride well... We have done some trucks that have to ride good as well... Explosive haulers, some NASA stuff, etc. But they are all set up to ride the best at a specific weight.. Now the ride is acceptable outside of that weight, but the further you get from that weight the worse it gets...
In air bag suspensions there are no spring rates, compression differential, progressive springs, etc.
Air bag systems are pretty simple in comparison. But they are not for performance, ever see one on a race car?
Air bags do not sag, change rate, etc as they age.... they do crack, dryrot, etc and fail... but their action is controlled by the ride height valve... an older bag might get a little stiff, but it will just another pound or two of air to compensate for that, you cannot feel it or tell it...
I look forward to going over one of these coaches that has this problem, to see what is causing it. Again, you are right, not all coaches do it, it seems to be one or two models...
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50578 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50578)
Mikee,
In practice it appears the air suspension "spring rate" changes with air pressure so increasing that will increase the weight needed to compress the suspenson.
As my actual coach weight runs about 3,000 lbs under the design rating for the front suspension the bottoming out is almost baffling to me - unless the reduced air pressure needed to maintain the ride height is so low the effective spring rate is reduced too much for the shocks to handle. In spite of sales pitches to the contrary Koni does not make junk. The coach also wandered all over the road when delivered, moving everything of any weight I could to the front storage bays improved that dramatically. I just inrceased my house batteries from 4 to 6 for at least two reasons one being since they are located just behind the front wheels it will add weight where it appears I need it. This might even help reduce the bottoming out.
I have used Air Lift brand bags in conjunction with factory springs with great success on the drag strip to preload the chassis for improved launch and on road for carrying extra weight. They are head and shoulders above air shocks IMHO and improved handling in my cars on leaf and coil sprung rears. Yeah, I know, antique tech but I'm an antique too and there were no adjustable control arms until recently. Also, obviously not the same thing as a pure air bag suspension.
I assume air springs are used on coaches because of the adjustability over a large spectrum of loads and, of course, cost - same reason as trucks, right? A closely production controlled alloy spring almost certainly costs more than a rubber bag and ride height control valve.
If you find an answer better than increasing my spring rate by raising the ride height I am all ears! Go for it! Please.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50581 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50581)
Bob: I have been following the conversations about bottoming out and wondering why my coach has never shown this problem. I recall only one occasion when this happened and it was a rather large crater which caused it. It also handles very well at this weight distribution. I had assumed that it was because I was significantly underloaded on the front axle (1900 lbs under).
After hearing that you have the problem and you have 1000 lbs less load on your front axle than I do, I am baffled as well. My coach is also an Inspire, #51442 which is only a few hundred away from yours. I tend to agree that this issue is not all about the shocks. I think the entire system plays a role - the suspension, including air bags, the loading, and the shocks. I just touch wood and hope mine stays as is. If it helps at all to have more info on another coach, let me know. Put 1000 lbs of lead on the front end to see if it gets better.
Ever since I first weighed this coach I have believed it would be better if the tanks were further forward.
ROwen 05 Inspire 51442
Yahoo Message Number: 50582 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50582)
See comments inserted in to email below
Mikee
The ride height valve adds air to maintain height, as the load increases it pushes the bag down, the valve adds air to maintain height. It does have any idea about load, as a spring does. The ride height valve is blind to load. If you go over a bump and compress the air bag, the valve wants to add air, this air is added thru a .030 (typical) orifice in the ride height valve, far to slow to compensate. unlike a spring that is instant. So if the bag is at a low pressure it will compress, bottom out, the ride height valve will let air in thru the orifice at a rate far slower than is needed, as the need is instant, the spring is instant and its resistance increases as the load pushes it down, instantly. .
You say design rating for the front suspension, is that the axle rating or the suspension rating... I am not aware of any rating other than axle rating.... Question, how tall is the bag itself when it is in ride height? What is the max extended height of the bag? What is the bag diameter and what is the weight on the axle? The bags may be fine, but the shocks are too short or long for the travel in the suspension, thus they are what is bottoming out... No one yet can tell me what is bottoming out, just that it is bottoming out. If it is hitting the snubber, the bags are not right, if it is bottoming out on shock travel that is a simple fix as well... As I said in an earlier post, until these answers are known any conversation is pure speculation.... It could be the rear suspension is so loaded it throws too much weight on the front when it hits bump.... If the rear bounces up it transfers a huge amount of weight to the front. the air bags cannot react to this again the orfrice thing...
We only use 4 link suspensions, most of what we do is on prostock or promod... .the suspensions you are talking about are not used on these tube chassis cars...
Air suspensions are used for 2 reasons, ride quality, no spring bounce, more stable, and the second is cost.... Air bags are pretty cheap compared to springs. Air bags also require much less maintenance..
Raising the ride height may be all that is needed... It depends on the max height of the bag, if the bag needs 3 inches of height added to stop the bottoming out, it probably needs a smaller bag, this is actually pretty simple to do as most of the mounting is the same for all bags...
From your comments about moving weight to the front, it may be the center of gravity is so far back any movement translates to a huge dynamic weight difference on the front... Like I have said I need to get one of these in my shop to know for sure. But I can promise you, shocks will not fix the condition, it may mask it.... I would like to get one right, then folks can play with shocks if they want and I bet they will see very little difference in different shocks...
Yahoo Message Number: 50583 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50583)
These coaches that bottom out, are they all tag axle coaches or are some single axle in the rear as well ?? ?
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50585 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50585)
I wonder if it might be possible to have an allowable *range* in ride height so that bag pressure could be maintained closer to optimum. ???
Tom Fisher
Yahoo Message Number: 50587 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50587)
Ride height can be adjusted to make the bags happy, but you may need a step ladder to get in the coach.... If the bag is the wrong size, it will always be the wrong size for the application.
When the ride height is set according to CC what is the actual height of the bag? 6", 9", 11"?
The ride height can be changed without causing any problem as long as the front and rear are raised equally, so the "level" or attitude of the coach is not changed. This is going to bring on conversation about pinion angle.... The pinion angle is fixed with the rear end mounting to the suspension system, now what will change is the u joint angle, as long as they both stay the same no harm no foul. I doubt a change in ride height will put a u joint out of its range. Raise one end of the coach and not the other and you do change the trans tailshaft angle, this angle and the pinion angle need to be the same, or a close as possible. The front and rear U joints on driveshafts need to be at the same angle to rotate easily.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50610 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50610)
Mikee
My 07 Allure 470 is a tag axle, 37.5 ft . It bottoms on any kind of unusual road surface.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 50616 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50616)
OR how about a combined air bag and hydraulic system(*HydraAir*).
The bags would then always inflate to a constant pressure and the hydraulic mechanism rides on top of the bags between them and the chassis. The hydraulic system would then adjust +/- on top of the bags to maintain a constant ride height.
Tom Fisher
( *HydraAir* patent pending;-))
Yahoo Message Number: 50619 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50619)
Our Inspire is grossly misloaded. There is less than 300lbs capacity left over the rear axel and as noted about 3,000 under maximum on the front.
I picked up from another forum a comment by a fellow with a similar rear heavy situation and I followed his suggestion to shift weight towards the front. I did and even a small amount made a significant difference in the wandering.
I am also mystified how you could have 1,000 lbs more than us. I don't have my coach literature here but as I recall our front suspension is rated at 12,000 lbs and is carrying a little over 9,000 thus the 3,000 net capacity.
The more this is talked about the clearer it is becomming to me that, in our case at least, the "light" weight means the air springs reach ride height with relatively low psi air pressure. This makes them easier to compress. By shifting everything I can to the front of the coach and raising the suspension in small increments I am creeping up on the best possible settings.
When the front suspension height starts to be problematic because of alignment issues, tire wear, handling or whatever I guess I'll back off some. That STILL leaves mw with the only logical solution of increasing shock absorber resistance as ther only other reasonable method of decreasing the the problem before something else breaks.
One of the front anti-sway bar retainer plates has already broken. That was back in the first few months of ownership when the Koni's were set at the lowest resistance setting.
Of course adding 1,000 lbs of Pb might work but that wouldn't help the fuel comsumption any. ;-)
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50621 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50621)
Mikee
I think we are both on the same page with ride height, coach leveling, air bag height, shocks, drive shaft angle as to what they are designed to do. Or probably ...what they can't do.
Here is my suggestion on this ride issue.
What is the definition of bottom out ? .......I think those who have worked in the industry or related fields have all seen damage caused (example) by failure of an suspension component that indeed caused "bottom out".
Bottom out to me as seen when suspension components reach there max designed travel and then come against rubber cushions. The upper suspension and lower suspension try to meet. Briefly mentioned the other extreme is the components extending as far apart as they can travel.
With owners pumping 125 plus pounds of air (cold), ride height to high, shocks set to firm what else can be expected riding down the road on a park bench.
I' am sure some trucker members with OTR (over the road) experiences can comment on a loaded trailer with tractor at 70,000 lbs rides like a Cadillac, (are they still in business ?) very smooth.
Drive ability as to alignment and ride ability comfort as to ride height and suspension.
So, what is the forum definition for.... bottom out ? AL
00 affinity #5851
Yahoo Message Number: 50622 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50622)
I still find your logic that adding air, and therefore psi, to the air springs does not change the rate. The ride height valve is passive, it merely lets air flow as intended to maintain a preset height. But a balloon inflated to low pressure is easy to compress, as the rubber is stretched and the air pressure increases it is harder to compress. The same thing is happening here. This is an effective change in spring rate - it takes more weight to move/compress the air bag the same distance. I have empirically seen this with the previously mentioned Air Lift devices. More air in the bag raises the suspension and increases the effective spring rate by increasing resistance to compression. When our coach's front ride height valve failed and the only way to get home other than a tow was to let it raise the suspension to max, the front wheels came up off the road before those air bags would compress going over just the difference in road height of an interstate overpass bridge. That clearly indicates an increased effective spring rate. Obviously at the extreme but a valid observation nevertheless. I think it also explains why some coaches do not demonstrate this problem. If they have more weight over the front axle the air bag requires more air pressure to achieve the set ride height which also offers more resistance to compression.
As near as I can find by both examining the hardware and reading the materials included with the coach there isn't any significant snubber or stop. I can assure you the SLAM it makes when hitting leads me to think it is metal on metal or close to it. It is alarming to say the least and every time it happens I wait for the next shoe to drop with a mechanical failure.
One of the retaining plates for a front anti-sway bar bushing broke early on right across a line left by the stamping machine, in other words a stress line for the metal to break on. This was almost immediately after a bottoming episode. I had that plate welded and it is still there because it is now an order of magnitude stronger than another stamped replacement. But it is an example of a failure probably caused by this problem. When the plate failed the bar came loose and wiped out the linkage on the ride height control valve. I have some photos someplace if you would like to see them.
Adding weight and ride height has dramatically improved the problem but it isn't completely gone. An unexpected, average road compression or dip can still bottom out this suspension. I see no evidence of shock length being a problem. With the weights involved and the single fasteners used top and bottom I would expect a failure there but I am not aware of anyone having reported that as happening and ours have not failed after repeated episodes.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50623 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50623)
Our coach does not have a tag axle.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50624 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50624)
CC sets ride height by measuring the distance between the upper and lower shock mount bolt center. It varies by coach model. I believe at least one set of these values is in the files section for this list. Bob Handren Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50625 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50625)
I have a 2005 Inspire 51406, that has 62,000 miles
I have just determined that I may need the installation of a Wet PTO ------ Can anyone answer a couple question ---- I have a great mechanoic but I also want to have some idea of wht I may be asking him to do/
1---If the PTO after examination is still oiled and everthing else looks OK do I need to purchase a wet PTO
2 --- How do I determine if the pump is OK?
3--- If I have to purchase Pump or PTO are there more than one source/
4---How much will each cost?
5--Will an experienced Mechanic be able to do the job ?
Stan Canaris 51406 Inspire
Yahoo Message Number: 50626 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50626)
May I suggest you take a look at the file PTO 101 in the files section for this list? It should answer most of your questions if not all.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50628 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50628)
I have pasted the Country Coach ride height measurements below. Since I had to copy and paste from a PDF document, the format, while readable, is a bit strange. In any event it provides the correct ride height measurement for various models/years.
If you would like the PDF copy let me know and I will send it to you.
Chuck Penque
03 Intrigue 11673
Yahoo Message Number: 50630 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50630)
---Gentlemen the question about bottoming out is an excellent one. If your shock is really stiff, when you hit a small abutment one could easily say that you bottomed out but it could really be the shock doing it's job. I am going to change to Road Kings in the fall when we get to California. At that time I will report back to the group , as to the result. Virtually all the 09 Magna's with the 20K have the wrong shocks. I was told this by CC engineering . They put the shock from the 16K front end on the early coaches ( from the same manufacturer as the 20k front end )They told me they would change them later.I picked mine up Oct 1st 08. No such luck. So I have a shock from a lighter front end( I do have some bounce ) but there are occasions where it feels as though it bottoms out. There are good points by Bob H and Mikee. I disagree with Bob H that by increasing the air bag pressure (and thereby changing the height ) that you are not changing the spring "rate ". Regardless of valving , when you hit an abutment your bag is in a steady state, so letting air in or out is not a factor . If you run 20# in your car tire versus 40#, it is clear you would get a softer ride, and therefore it relates to side wall flex. The same thing applies to the bag.
Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025
Yahoo Message Number: 50643 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50643)
thanks
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50644 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50644)
Bob,
If you ever get in my area come on by.. I will find the problem . I have said what I have to say, any more is just repeating myself. Hopefully, someone with one of the coaches that "bottom out" will come by and we can get this figured out.
Did you get a change to find the answers to the questions I asked yesterday?
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50645 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50645)
I understand what CC uses to set ride height, I know those numbers, that is why I asked what is the actual height of the bag itself.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50659 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50659)
Mikee,
This has been an interesting topic to follow and I appreciate your in depth input. Even though I don't bottom out, I do bounce more than I find acceptable. I won't be in your area until next spring but would like to come see you then if I'm still bouncing.
Jerry
'07 Allure 31485
Yahoo Message Number: 50664 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50664)
Bob: Your front axle should be rated for 13,200. Rear at 20,000 for a total of 33,200.
We have adopted a weight shifting plan to load the front end as much as possible. That means in the basement and in the cupboards in the main cabin. Everything heavy like full bottles, books, etc. are kept in forward cabinets. Light stuff goes back. We still approach our rear limit just like you do. But the front axle loading seems off compared to yours. We don't really carry a lot of heavy junk with us and as you know the forward cabinets are smaller than the rear ones so there is a limit to how much weight shifting you can do. But I am reasonably sure that we weighed around 11,000 on the front (I'll check the ticket this evening) - with full fuel, 1/2 water and sewage pumped. That's how I usually weigh it. If you are at 9,000, it's hard to understand that difference. Do you have any unusual weight behind the rear wheels which would lift the front?
ROwen 05 Inspire 51442
Yahoo Message Number: 50665 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50665)
Has anyone with the "bottoming out" problem noted how it is affected when full of fuel and/or water(potable & waste)? This might provide an important clue to determine the cause.
Tom Fisher
Yahoo Message Number: 50670 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50670)
I'd be happy to have you bounce on over...
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 50703 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50703)
You're right, front gross max is 13,200. Relying on memory again, my bad.
Factory weights from the sheet that came with the coach:
4850 driver side front passenger side front 4850, 13,200 max = 3,500 left for cargo
9750 driver side rear passenger side rear 9800, 20,000 max = 450 left for cargo
The coach has been weighed twice since it left the factory - can't find the darn reports but not much change other than expected with some fluids and property on board.
There is no way short of hauling lead or depleted uranium that we can get anything like 3,500 lbs added to the front weight. I think at last weigh-in I can accurately estimate we've added about 500 up there by adding 2 more house batteries, keep the fuel tank as full as possoble, and everything of any weight jammed in the bays.
With the rear suspension right at max permissable load and the front extremely light in comparison I think this is the obvious place to look for at least part of cause of the problems for our coach. The dramatic effect shifting weight forward has darn near confirms it to me.
We are leaving tomorrow AM for a week at a rally so I can't get under the rig to measure things like bag height - sorry Mikee just can't do it right now. Assuming Holland-Neway knows how to design a front suspension I am sure they would have something to say about the weight distribution and handling issues but they don't/won't deal with anyone who isn't an OEM.
At this point the coach is handling the best it ever has and better than anything else I've owned. If it can be made better yet and bottoming all but eliminated (you can always go too fast over too big a bump) I am all ears but otherwise I am out of ideas and I haven't heard a better explanation than the unusual weight distribution and light front end loading.
I hope Mikee is successful in finding some common denominator. Until then I keep watching the weight, mine and the coach's.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50707 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50707)
Bob: FYI, I found a print out in the box of manuals which I am thinking is the original factory weights for my MOHO. It's a simple color pic of the 4 wheels with weights for each. There is no way of telling but I assume this is the one. Here's what it says: front left 5613; front right 5379 (2208 under on the front); rear left 9695; rear left 9648 (657 under). That leaves me with a total CCC of 2865. My on-the road weight is now 11580 on the front (1620 under) and 19760 on the rear (240 under) so I have added about 1000 lbs. If the factory is trying to replicate the info on the tag in the cupboard, they may have measured with full water and added for passengers. I weigh at half water so that picks up another 400 lbs or so and the passenger load is stated at 750 (for 5) so I suppose my load could be about 1600 lbs which seems reasonable to me.
I measured the front air bags - they are 9" from the top of the bag to the bottom of the base plate.
The puzzle for me is why is your front so much lighter than mine??
Have a good trip.
ROwen 05 Inspire 51442
Yahoo Message Number: 50733 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50733)
Let's try to compare why our would weigh so much less.
We have the 7500 Onan Quiet (HAH!) Diesel, no roll out mechanism, stick your head through a little hole.
KVH In-motion sat TV
Power gear leveling jacks
32" Panasonic LCD TV
Not much else than the usual seats, snack tray, rear TV, etc.
Rig is an ABCD = 4 slides and helps explain heavy rear.
Which front suspension system do you have, make, model? Sound the same as ours but...
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50751 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50751)
Bob: Your coach sounds identical to mine except that I have only 3 slides. Otherwise, everything you mention is the same. I dumped the heavy rear TV for a flat screen. I have 4 6V deep cycle batteries.
Anyone else have an Inspire in this range (51150-51500)? If so, what's your front axle weigh? I don't get it.
ROwen
Yahoo Message Number: 50758 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50758)
Are they both 40 ft?
I weighed mine in Jan. 09
Front 11,300 lbs
Rear 19760 lbs
At first opportunity, i will get all 4 points weighed
Gil Bourdon
'05 Inspire 40'
51322
Yahoo Message Number: 50759 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50759)
Bob: Your coach sounds identical to mine except that I have only 3 slides. Otherwise, everything you mention is the same. I dumped the heavy rear TV for a flat screen. I have 4 6V deep cycle batteries.
Yahoo Message Number: 50760 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50760)
Ous is 36'.
Drove about 200 miles yesterday, first time with 6-GC2 6V batts - best handling yet. When new I felt I was trying to keep the rig straight driving on ice. All the corrections wore me out. Yesterday I hardly had to move the wheel.
Weight is absolutely an issue.
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50762 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50762)
ROwen,
I don't think my last message got posted.
I have 05 Inspire Genoa with 3 slides. #51399 Front axel weight in June of 07 was 10940 lbs. (Have newer weights but filed aboard motorhome which is not at home right now.) Rear was 21340 lbs with full dress Harley on rear rack (800 lbs well back of rear axel) so it was a little over but drove pretty well. The front end bottoms out occasionally with or without the Harley. New Koni FSD's this Spring didn't seem to help on trip to Alaska (no Harley).
John
05 Inspire #51399
Yahoo Message Number: 50783 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50783)
Oh - I think that explains it!
ROwen 05 Inspire 51442
Yahoo Message Number: 50786 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50786)
How so?
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 50788 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50788)
Bob: The way I do the math, the average weight of a 40' is about 750 lbs per ft. Take out 4 ft., that would be minus 3000 for a 36 ft. But of course you can't take out the average because all of the main components are the same on the 2 coaches. Still, there has to be some difference since there is 4 ft. less of chassis, walls, roof, floor, etc. so the difference we were talking about seems reasonable to me and any other difference not in the coach itself is probably explained by the different "stuff" we have loaded forward in our coach.
John's numbers for his Genoa also seem to bear that out.
I always thought that the Sienna's had a different number group but I guess all Inspires follow the 5 series numbers.
ROwen 05 Inspire DaVince 40' 51442
Yahoo Message Number: 50789 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50789)
John: I think you should put the Harley on the front!!!
ROwen 05 Inspire DaVinci 51442
Yahoo Message Number: 50791 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/50791)
That's what I need, a Harley for the front end. Let me talk to the wife. After all it's a safety issue isn't it?
Bob Handren
Inspire 51178