Yahoo Message Number: 55710 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55710)
Hi There,
I have begun to experience intermittent electrical power problems in my coach. While plugged into 50amp shore power, I suddenly lost 110 devices throughout the coach. I heard some clicking noises around my interior sensor panel, then the power came back on about 20 mins later. During the 110 power loss, the panel indicating battery strength visibly dropped from 100% to 70%. I turned off the inverter outside the coach, and I had 110 power again, for about 12 hours. The whole scenario repeated itself, power restroed, and it lasted 20 hours before going through the same cycle.
I started the generator, and had no power problems, the batteries recharged, and when I shut the generator down, the shore power provided the 110 power. I changed the surge guard, same thing happened. I checked the power source at the plug in, it is putting out properly.
So, I'm stumped....Does anyone have any suggestions or similar experiences? I had a mobile tech out and he couldn't identify the problem as its so intermittent.
I'm open to any and all thoughts,
Thanks,
Jerry Keller
2006 Allure #31347
Yahoo Message Number: 55713 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55713)
Jerry, I would start with the path that power enters and moves through the coach. You mention the generator seem OK, so move on to shore power flow. If everything checks OK at the power post, (I assume you have been plugged in a while and this problem is new) does the serge protector cut off power? Are you using any large draw appliances, like electric heat pumps or washer / dryer that may be generating heat in the wiring? It is common for one 120v receptacle somewhere to have a loose wire which will cause the surge protector to cut out. Next is the transfer switch. All the wire lugs tight there? Next check the wiring on the inverter. Not sure about the clicking noise at inside panel. If this happens when power is restored, could be the energy management panel returning power to the circuits. My guess is, if you can narrow down the reason for power cutting off, the battery charge will be OK.
Dave 07 Inspire 52060
Yahoo Message Number: 55733 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55733)
A couple months ago I experienced a similar AC power problem. After a lot of poking around I discovered that two GFI's were faulty. I replaced them and all was okay.
Mel Shapiro
LEXA 6177
Yahoo Message Number: 55734 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55734)
Jerry,
1. I would bet the SurgeGard has gone bad OR the inbound power at the post is dropping to low voltage causing the SurgeGard to turn off. You can check by bypassing the SurgeGard with the key on the front panel.
2. The above is causing your coach to run off the inverter which will draw down your batteries. Since your batteries are old, the draw down will happen fast. My OEM batteries only lasted two years.
3. The clicking sounds you hear are the transfer switch changing between shore power and internal power. Nothing to worry about.
4. The generator bypasses shore power and the inverter so everything will work and the batteries will charge.
Al
2006 Allure Hood River #31440
Yahoo Message Number: 55738 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55738)
Hello to all who provided thoughts and guidance on my intermittent power problems.
An electrician finally narrowed it down to my transfer switch. I have one ordered, he will put it in as soon as it arrives, and hopefully all will be well. Right now the coach is sitting with all of the 110 appliances off, the refer is on LP, and I have a trickle charger hooked up to the house batteries maintaining a charge. The new transfer switch should be here in a couple of days.
Thanks again to all of you who shared with me insight and ideas about how to diagnose and correct this issue.
Best,
Jerry Keller
2006 Allure 430 #31347
Yahoo Message Number: 55747 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55747)
Not a good idea to by pass the surgeguard until one knows what the problem is.
Chuck & Mary B
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55752 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55752)
Jerry,
Glad you found it. It is an extremely simple matter to bypass the transfer switch and have shore power while you are waiting for the new one. I should mention that I did this and it turned out to be the surgeguard.
Others have told you about the Progressive products. Go to their website as they sugggested: for openers, instead of idiot lights you have a digital readout with ten fault codes. These units are modular and parts are field replaceable by owner, etc.
Rich
Yahoo Message Number: 55754 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55754)
Hi Jerry,
I do not understand why your electrician did not suggest that he wire around the transfer switch since it has to come out anyway.
Chuck & Mary B
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55758 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55758)
I would expect that the clicking sounds (not one thump) is the EMS ramping up or down its load sharing relays with its multiple indicator lights, when the power changes over.
Herb
2007 Allure #31466 (SOLD)
Yahoo Message Number: 55759 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55759)
Are any of the EMS relays fast enough to respond in one nanosecond???
TF
Yahoo Message Number: 55777 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55777)
Hi T Boone,
Go to www.progressiveindustries.net (http://www.progressiveindustries.net) for the information you are asking. The unit is microprocessor controled for the needed protection. Its not the operation of any given relay, but the release of the relay.
Chuck & Mary B
Las Vegas, NV
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55780 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55780)
Common sense would tell anyone that a mechanical relay cannot respond/open in "less than one nanosecond". Thus, IF the neutral line opens *after* the unit has connected power, items in your coach will be momentarily be exposed to as much as 220V. Many if not most devices only designed to be operated on 120V will be FRYED when only momentarily exposed to 220V.
TF
Yahoo Message Number: 55781 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55781)
TBonne
Would you kindly explain how an open neutral exposes any 110 volt appliances to 220 volts.
Don Seager
2004 Allure 31046
Yahoo Message Number: 55783 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55783)
The EMS relays I am referring to is when you are on 30A (or it thinks you are) -- it manages any potential overload by shedding up to five loads -- rear A/C compressor, front A/C compressor, Hot Water Heater, Washer/Dryer, and A/C fans (not in that order) -- to keep you under 30 or 20 amps. In some cases, when power is applied, it connects the load over a couple seconds -- hence the multiple clicks.
FYI, Dip switches sets the order that load is shed or added. Mine were not set correctly to match the labels.
When it sees a 30A load, it sheds the first load, and will not restore it until the current used by other circuits decreases for around two minutes.
Herb
2007 Allure #31466
Yahoo Message Number: 55787 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55787)
????
I'll do better than that. I'll illustrate it. Plug your coach into a 50 amp receptacle and then disconnect the neutral connection to the receptacle. The illustration will be dramatic and you won't forget it!!;-))
TF
Yahoo Message Number: 55790 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55790)
TF Basically, the neutral is the reference wire for the voltage lines. You have two hot wires which are 120v to neutral and 220 hot to hot. If you loose the neutral then there is no reference for the 120. Depending on the size/load of the devices in your coach the 220v power is split between the load(s) on phase A and Phase B. What ever amount of current flows thru on must flow thru the other. If you had only two devices powered up (one on each phase) and they were of equal resistance than the voltage would be split equally. BUT, if one has more resistance than the other then the voltage will be split proportionally. This is (I hope) just a simple explanation. There are more factors but basically, this is how it works.
ddtuttle
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 55791 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55791)
Very good explanation and I already understood this relatively simple voltage divider
circuit. Now you need to explain this to others on this group who don't. Of course the
fact that they don't understand it doesn't make it any less true.;=)) The bottom line is that an open or weak neutral can be a disaster in your coach or home.
Unfortunately, there are countless real life examples of this happening.
Since the EMS system uses mechanical relays, I seriously doubt that it can disconnect
power fast enough to prevent damage. This is why many folks test each leg of a 50amp
plug with a heavy load *before* connecting to it. If it cannot maintain correct voltage,
the neutral may be weak and open up later under load......*after* EMS has allowed
a connection.:-(((
TF
Yahoo Message Number: 55792 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55792)
Maybe this makes it easier to understand
l__l__l
120 NEUTRAL 120
l 120 l 120 l With Neutral
l___l
120 120 No Neutral
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 55793 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55793)
There's another way to look at this. Lets say you have an air conditioner motor on one leg and it draws 3 amps and on the other leg you have a TV and your stereo that draw .3 amps when turned off due to the logic circuits. The motor requires as much as 5 times current to start rotating, if the neutral is dropped then the motor is going to draw 15 + amps, times 2+, through the circuits of the TV as it has no transformer and through the transformers of the stereo equipment, the fusses aren't going to blow fast enough and pow! TV's, Microwaves, inverters, anything plugged in are in danger. Remember current is what kills. Plus when you start talking 30 amps being pushed by 220, the wiring in the coach is rated for 1/2 that is in danger, and connectors and wiring on our appliances are rated for far less. If that isn't bad enough, now all the grounds and chassis of appliances are now hot and if we should be unfortunate to touch metal, well that would be sad.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731
Original Message:
-----------------
From: mbaul Mbaul@... (Mbaul@...) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:05:56 -0500 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com (Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com) Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: intermittent electrical problems
Maybe this makes it easier to understand
l__l__l
120 NEUTRAL 120
l 120 l 120 l With Neutral
l___l
120 120 No Neutral
Mikee
In a message dated 01/19/10 09:35:44 Eastern Standard Time, william_byte@... (william_byte@...) writes:
TF Basically, the neutral is the reference wire for the voltage lines. You have two hot wires which are 120v to neutral and 220 hot to hot. If you loose the neutral then there is no reference for the 120. Depending on the size/load of the devices in your coach the 220v power is split between the load(s) on phase A and Phase B. What ever amount of current flows thru on must flow thru the other. If you had only two devices powered up (one on each phase) and they were of equal resistance than the voltage would be split equally. BUT, if one has more resistance than the other then the voltage will be split proportionally. This is (I hope) just a simple explanation. There are more factors but basically, this is how it works.
ddtuttle
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange (http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange)
Yahoo Message Number: 55795 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55795)
Don,
An open neutral will probably not expose the appliances to 220V, but it certainly could be more than 110V. Explanation below:
Without a connected neutral you would have a floating neutral in the coach. In normal conditions, appliances on the A Leg and the B Leg are connected to this common, connected neutral and receive 110V. Without the neutral connected to the power company, the A Leg appliances are effectively and collectively connected in series to the appliances on the B Leg. If the total resistance of all appliances that are turned on, on the A Leg equal the total resistance of the B Leg, then you are lucky and will evenly divide the 220 V between the two legs, or 110V each. In the extreme case when, let's say, the B Leg is shorted to the floating neutral, then the voltage on the A Leg would be 220V. But lets say the resistance of the ON appliance on the A Leg is twice that of the B Leg, then the voltage on one leg will be (1/3)*220V or 73V and the other leg will be (2/3)*220 or 147V -- not a good condition.
BTW, if all of the loads (appliances) on one of the legs were OFF, then the you will find that all the appliances on the other leg would be OFF (because the floating neutral is basically disconnected from any power.
Herb
2007 Allure #31466 (SOLD)
Yahoo Message Number: 55796 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55796)
I've gotta step in here because after carrying an electrical Masters' license for 43 years, I'm getting confused with all of the explanations. I'm not sure where to start, but briefly, there is no way (in a single phase 4 wire residential system) for any 120 volt consuming device to get 240 volts to it when the neutral is lost. When the neutral is lost on a 120 volt circuit, there is no return path for the current. The circuit is , at that point, an open circuit and NO current will flow. There are some exceptions to that, but generally, that's what happens. In a 120 volt circuit the amperage is the same on both the hot wire and the neutral (return) wire. On a 240 volt circuit if there is 10 amps on one leg and 13 amps on the other leg, for example, 3 amps (the difference) will flow in the neutral wire. If the amperage in each of the hot legs is equal, NO current will flow in the neutral.
In the scenario that was originally cited, if the neutral dropped, I can't see any way that that there could be any damage to anything in the amount of time it would take for the contactor to open.
As usual there are always exceptions for unusual circumstances.
Dave Trotter
Intrigue 11215
Yahoo Message Number: 55797 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55797)
I agree with DAVE BOB BSEE 06 Intrigue 12047
Yahoo Message Number: 55798 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55798)
Dave, it's easy to demonstrate.....disconnect the neutral supply line from your house and stand back!!!;-)) On second thought, don't do this as one with a "Masters' license for 43 years" might be very embarrased.
TF
I've gotta step in here because after carrying an electrical Masters' license for 43 years, I'm getting confused with all of the explanations. I'm not sure where to start, but briefly, there is no way (in a single phase 4 wire residential system) for any 120 volt consuming device to get 240 volts to it when the neutral is lost. When the neutral is lost on a 120 volt circuit, there is no return path for the current. The circuit is , at that point, an open circuit and NO current will flow. There are some exceptions to that, but generally, that's what happens. In a 120 volt circuit the amperage is the same on both the hot wire and the neutral (return) wire. On a 240 volt circuit if there is 10 amps on one leg and 13 amps on the other leg, for example, 3 amps (the difference) will flow in the neutral wire. If the amperage in each of the hot legs is equal, NO current will flow in the neutral.
In the scenario that was originally cited, if the neutral dropped, I can't see any way that that there could be any damage to anything in the amount of time it would take for the contactor to open.
As usual there are always exceptions for unusual circumstances.
Dave
Intrigue 11215
Yahoo Message Number: 55799 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55799)
Excellent explaination David. The neutral bus in the campground power post and in the coach main power panel needs to be isolated from the electrical panel it is in. The ground bus will be grounded to those panels. That is where the confusion arises with some folks. The neutral and ground needs to be separated in any surge protection device installed.
There has been some confusion between TF and myself about what we are talking about. I think TF is talking about the relays in the Energy Management System (EMS), and I am talking about the Progressive Industries surge power protection device. Right row but the wrong seat.
Chuck & Mary B
Las Vegas, NV
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55800 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55800)
Except the legs are 180 out of phase... So the potential between them is the amount of phase difference.... should be 180.... so when one is at max negative the other will be at max positive..... So it is not going to 0 but an amount exactly opposite of itself... 120 is the RMs of typical service The actual peak is higher... At the "crossing" of the sign waves from positive to negative the difference will be 0, but at max positive on one and max negative on the other is will be the peak to peak voltage of the 2 lines...And yes this is assuming at least one device is on on each leg. Everything being off is quite rare, refers, acs, heat, inverters, lights, alladins, etc etc, .
A lot of technical speak to say it will and does cause an expensive condition that you want to avoid. When someone tries to prove TF wrong please send me the pictures... And have all the camers s ready as it does not last too long.... but it is quite a sight while it is happening...
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 55801 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55801)
Hi T Boone,
I thing I see where you and I are talking apples and oranges. I now see that you are referring to the Energy Management System (EMS), a load sheding device when hooked up to 30 amp shore power. I am talking about the Progressive Industries EMS, a power surge protection device that is installed on the main power cord of the coach. A few years ago, a campground owner accidently opened up the neutral to a feeder sub panel. All the power posts feeding from that sub panel were involved. All the RV's using 50 amp service around me suffered a lot of damage. Our EMSHW50C shut down the incoming power to our coach. We suffered no damage including the unit.
Chuck & Mary B
Las Vegas, NV
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55802 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55802)
Hi Dave,
You make reference to residential applications. Check the code Book for RV applications. The key word is referencing. Is the service referenced to neutral, or to ground?
Chuck & Mary B
Las Vegas, NV
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55804 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55804)
As I understand the system, the EMSHW50C system uses *mechanical* relay(s) to connect
power to a coach. IF this is true, there is no way this *mechanical* relay(s) can respond fast
enough to disconnect power when a neutral opens up *after* the system is connected.
IMHO, you were very lucky and/or the problem happened slow enough so that the relays
had enough time to actuate. A typical 50-100 millisec(?) relay response time is more than enough
time to do mucho damage to all your favorite toys!
TF
(praying for a Brown Victory in Mass!!)
Yahoo Message Number: 55806 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55806)
Chuck,
My reference to residential wiring was only to point out that the wiring configuration available at the power post in an RV park is the same as what 99% of the homes in this country have. The breaker panel in the coach is nothing more than a cord connected sub-panel. Same rules apply.
The original statement involved the question of damage that would occur during the split second it would take for the contactor to drop power to the coach in the event of a lost neutral, and the contention that there would suddenly and mysteriously be 240 volts applied to circuits that were previously 120 volts. Ain't gonna happen. I cannot envision any scenario where damage would be incurred because of overvoltage.
I'm NOT saying that there might not me a possible, theoretical, hypothetical 'what if' case where damage to electronic devices could occur in the absence of the neutral. It's hardly ever good to run without one, but as a practical matter, nothing bad will happen to 120 volt consuming devices in the time it takes for the contactor to open.
Dave Trotter
Intrigue 11215
Yahoo Message Number: 55809 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55809)
Hi Dave,
I respect your master electrician's rating. I speak from experience. I was in a RV Park where the owner opened up the neutral coming from a sub panel going to the power posts on the street we were parked on. Our coach was saved because of our Progressive Industries unit. Our neighbor's, who were on 50 amp service, received a lot of damage. This was in the summer time in 90 degree heat with the airs running.
Chuck & Mary B
Las Vegas, NV
Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat
Yahoo Message Number: 55816 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55816)
What may I ask is the EMS you are all talking about (not the Progressive EMS). Sounds cool. I don't think I have one on my Magna. I would love something that would drop loads as needed. BTW, gentleman, you have outdone yourselves on technical discussions this time!
Rich 2002 Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 55817 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55817)
Excuse me, but electrical Master or not, I saw what happens when you lose neutral. We had an intermittent neutral on the power line going to our bunkhouse. It blew every single light that was on (four of them)simultaneously. One circuit had a refrigerator on it, the lights were on the other.
Al Colby
2000 Intrigue 10979
Yahoo Message Number: 55847 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55847)
TF
What would you use to produce a 'heavy load' before you connect the coach to a power receptical? Something that works like a battery tester could be a effective and handy device, albeit, it has potential to be somewhat dangerous in the hands of someone whom is being careless. e.g. plugging or unplugging it while is is on.
ddtuttle
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 55850 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/55850)
Electric cube heater, hair dryer....etc....something that draws 1000Watts+.
TF