Yahoo Message Number: 63907 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63907)
I'm looking for others who have an Amsolar system on your coach. Would like to compare notes on operation.
Thanks
Leonard Kerns
97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 63908 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63908)
I went with a self installed RV Solar Electric unit (Scottsdale, AZ), but will compare as we can, if you want. For true gurus on solar, get with the Escapees yahoo group. Some engineers there that can answer almost any question.
The folks at RV Solar will spend as much time on the phone as you want to get you (or anyone interested) educated and comfortable, even before you buy. 1-800-999-8520 No affiliation, just happy customer.
Jack Nichols, 2003 Intrigue 11527, 4 x Kyocera KC-130 panels (520 watts total), Xantrex C-35 controller
Yahoo Message Number: 63938 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63938)
Jack, it looks like you have lots of power with 520 watts. What kind of amps do you see? How well does it keep up your batteries? How many batteries do you have? We have 4 older 75 watt panels with a new control panel and not seeing the amps I think I should. Trying to short out all the solar stuff and get a real world handle on what solar can really do or can't do. Seems wire size maybe a key to a good system.
Thanks
Leonard Kerns
97' Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 63945 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63945)
Leonard...
With 300 watts of solar panels you should have 14+ volts and around 15 amps of current coming out of the controller (at high noon in full sun)...
Panels and controllers rarely go bad... Most solar systems fail due to high impedence connections at the panels due to oxidation... The problem is compounded by the fact that many installers use "clamp-on" lugs or just wrap the wire around the screw on the terminal strip...
Fix is: At both the panels and the controller, remove the "clamp-on" lugs and replace with lugs that are soldered to the wire, also, "brighten" the terminals at the panels and controller before re-attaching the wires...
Wire size is very important in low voltage circuits... Use at least 14 stranded THW (sunlight and oil resistant and can be used in wet locations) to "parallel" the panels, and at least 12 stranded for the main feeder wire from the panels to the controller... 10 stranded would be better, but is harder to handle than the 12 gauge...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, C10, Allison 4060
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Yahoo Message Number: 63948 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63948)
Thanks Buck,
I see the volts, but the amps are far short, 10 amps, mostly less. Time to do more troubleshooting.
Leonard Kerns
97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 63954 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63954)
Leonard:
I agree that wire size is a factor, especially with 12 volt panels. I installed mine with six ga wire, both on parallel wiring the panels and the drop to the controller and to batteries, through a 30 amp fuse. Once it gets off the roof, I would rather have a little heavier wire. As a practical matter it probably does not make much difference, but it seems foolish to waste power that took so much money and effort to make, no matter how little it might be. Wire cost would be very little more, and labor is the same.
On my four 130 watt panels I often see a peak of 6-7 amps (at 12 volts), and that is with dirty panels, partly shaded under a tree (with lots of birds). Bird poop is a great solar insulator, by the way. In full sun and clean panels I show about 10 amps with them tilted for maximum exposure. Initially I did not have a meter to show amps, voltage, or cumulative amp-hours, but a friend said "If I spent that much for a system, I would want to see what it did". Good point, so I installed one. Until then I had a little 12 volt meter on one of the light circuits, reasoning that voltage is a good indication of battery health, so no worries. The expensive meter is a comfort, not really necessary as long as your monitor voltage some way.
When I was boondocking in Quartzite and West Texas I had three 8D lead acid batteries, 240 amp-hour capacity each. I could watch satellite TV until about ten every night, being careful with parasitic loads and lighting, and turning off the inverter when I went to bed. Voltage would get down to about 12.3 or so, and solar would have me back up to 13.5 volts by about 1 PM the next day without running the generator. If I ran the hydronic heater, my generator would come on about 3AM to keep my batteries healthy. Some day, after I win the lottery, I will fill my battery compartment with L16 AGM batteries to double my capacity. Of course it is always better to have too much solar capacity, so you fully charge the batteries, and the super capacity batteries may require another panel or two - lots of real estate on top of a 40' coach, and the panels provide some expensive shade too.
I have my inverter/charger set to stop charging my batteries at 90 percent of full, and let the solar controller fine tune them to 100 percent.
There are higher voltage, computer based controllers available, and for big systems may provide better service. I am happy with what I have, so have not investigated it. The past year I spent 98% of my time on 50 amp shore power, but I have saved over 7,262 amp hours of electricity to charge my batteries. The system would take only about 50 years (if ever) to pay for itself at that rate. After the first of the year I will boondock more, and I am glad I have the ability to camp without using a generator.
Leonard, I would not worry too much about your system, just keep the panels clean and connections tight, and they should do well. I think panels are rated based on laboratory conditions, not average real world conditions.
Lots of good research going on with solar and wind power, and I think we will continue to see improvements as we go along.
Jack Nichols, 2003 Intrigue 11527
Yahoo Message Number: 63956 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63956)
Jack,
Thanks for the good information. Our system was installed in 97. Lots of things have changed with solar since then. The install was not well done. Panels in series with undersize wire not uv rated. The panels were laid for the longest wire leads. Have redone all that with heavy cabe, in parallel with distribution box, newer designed control panel. I think I need to run heaver wire from the roof top down now. You are the second one to mention 6 ga. wire to me. Think that is where I'm loosing, only 10 ga now. Did you run your 6 ga wire all the way back to the batteries are did you tie into the battery cables in the electrical bay? Our present system ties into the fuse panel in the main electrical bay where the inverter is. Running wires all the way back to the batteries is tough assignment.
Thanks
Leonard 97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 63958 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63958)
Leonard:
Sounds like you are well on top of it, and easily know as much or more than I do about it. Did you get my correction of my statement on wire size? I originally stated six, but it is ten gauge. Larger would be better, of course. I will put that on my to do list.
The set up to get the wire from front to back of the coach was a challenge, for sure, as my Intrigue has a wheel opening right in front of the battery bay. I ran the wire from the roof alongside the black water tank vent, as it is closer to the batteries. I had to pull the washer/dryer to finish it, and next time I am just going to buy more wire and run it down the refrigerator vent, believe me. Once the wire was run into the wheel well arch, I put it above the rubber gasket between the skin and chassis, and sealed it with expanding foam spray. I wired directly to the battery cable clamp bolts, with an inline 30 amp fuse. (I might should have run to the battery disconnect switch). The controller is in the bay with the Hurricane heater, as I do not want controller electronics in the battery bay.
You mentioned your panel was originally wired in series - is it possible you may have a voltage controller that can be set for higher voltage input? If you are feeding a controller set to (say) 24 volts input and input 12 volts (your 12 volt panels in parallel), that may something to look at. My controller can be configured to either 12 or 24 volt systems, but it only inputs and outputs the same voltage. I cannot input 24 volts and get out twice the watts at 12 volts. Rats. I wonder how the system would react to a transformer on the input to reduce a 48 volt input (my 4 panels in series) to 12 input into my controller? Buck? I will check with my gurus, and get back to you.
Jack Nichols, 2003 Intrigue 11527
Yahoo Message Number: 63963 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63963)
Leonard,
Assuming that the wire size is adequate and sunlight is bright, direct and with a good angle of incidence you may see the 14 amps that Buck predicts. But, there are a couple of more dependencies as well. If your controller is from 1997 it is not likely to be and MPPT device which does a great job of taking the excess voltage from the array and increasing current. Also, with an older controller your battery state of charge will have a large impact on current. If you are not below probably 80% SOC with non MPPT, non 3 stage controller you will not see near maximum current rate.
You may benefit from new wiring and a new controller.
I have a 2005 vintage Blue Sky 2000e 2 stage MPPT controller managing 240 watts of solar array. The very most current I have ever seen was in early July at 8,000 feet on a clear cool late morning with a low state of charge. At that time I saw 12 amps.
One last comment. It is also important to have clean panel. That is where I think most solar performance fails. I have no ladder to my roof so you can imagine how often I clean the panels.
Good luck
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038.
Yahoo Message Number: 63968 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63968)
Jack, Leonard...
Most modern controllers require a minimum of 18 volts input in order to do their job... A properly designed and working "12 volt" solar panel will output about 20 volts in full sun... The controller reduces and regulates the panel output to about 14 volts, a level that will charge the batteries without damaging them... The controller also "tapers" the charge by reducing the amperage as the battery nears full charge (about 12.66 volts) and at that point in time goes into "float' mode which will keep the battery at about 14 volts and ready for use... (the ideal charging voltage is 13.8 volts if you want your batteries to live a long life)... The controller also keeps the panels from discharging the batteries when the charging voltage drops below the battery voltage due to the sun going down.
Since the solar panel output will be reduced to about 14 volts by the controller, there is no need to supply more than the 20 volts the controller needs to do it's job... Therefore, the best way to increase your solar wattage is to wire the 12 volt panels in parallel, which will result in the 20 volts needed by the controller and will make the amperage generated by all of the panels available to the batteries...
For example, a 12V 100 watt solar panel will put out approximately 20 VDC @ 6 amps at high noon in full sun... If you wire 4 of these panels in parallel, you would have 20 volts @ 24 amps available to the controller... The controller takes the 20 volts and reduces and regulates it to a usable voltage of about 14 Volts, and makes most of the 24 amps available to charge the batteries... I say "most" because there is always some loss in electrical circuits...
Jack, re: using a transformer to drop 48 volts to 12 volts... Transformers only work with AC, so the DC voltage from the panels would not induce voltage/current in the secondary winding of the transformer... Yes, there are some ways to use a transformer with DC, but they are cumbersome and very inefficient, and would be more trouble than it would be worth, considering the controller only needs 20 volts...
Solar electric systems are out in the weather, so keep the wiring runs as short as possible and use solder terminal lugs at the panels and controller to keep oxidation at a minimum... If you use #6 wire, the lugs may be too large to fit on the terminal strips on the panels and controller...
Keep in mind too that the American Wire Gauge system (AWG) says #14 wire will handle 15 amps, #12 will handle 20 amps, #10 will handle 30 amps, and big ol' #6 will handle 60 amps!
I have only one 100 watt Siemens panel on my coach... I bought the panel and controller on Craig's list for 50 bucks... The guy that had them told me the panel or controller was not working but a quick check of the panel with a VOM showed it putting out over 20 volts... the controllers seldom go bad, so I really wasn't worried about it working... The Magna's electrical schematic showed several 12 gauge spare wires in the wiring harness to the fridge, so I mounted the panel on my coach roof near the refridgerator vent and mounted the controller in the cabinet next to the fridge so I could monitor charging voltage/current from inside the coach.. ran #12 from the panel down the fridge vent to the controller, hooked the "spare" wires in the fridge compartment to the controller output and then to the house batteries... no pulling wires, etc. I felt like a thief it was so easy...
By 0800 I am getting around 700 milliamps of charging current, and by noon about 5 amps...(in full sun)... the panel is mounted flat on the roof 'cause at my age I didn't want to be climbing up there to adjust the "angle of attack"...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, C10, Allison 4060
Yahoo Message Number: 63971 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/63971)
Buck, thanks for checking in.
I realized my AC/DC vs transformer mistake when I re-read it. Even assuming it would work, any slight gain in voltage loss in the wiring would be more than offset by loss in the transformer. Sometimes I over think problems, and after much agonizing and work decide it is not worth the trouble. ;*) Wiring directly into the 12 supply behind the fridg is feasible (and MUCH easier), but I wanted a no-nonsense direct connection so I could more easily isolate the system, no other circuits involved. Your way is better.
Jack Nichols, KA5IFU, 2003 Intrigue 11527
Yahoo Message Number: 64014 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/64014)
Jack, I hope you mean you see 6-7 amps per panel, not all four together!
Rich 2002 Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 64017 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/64017)
If I was charging into a low charge battery bank, probably so, but since I am on shore power, all it is doing is topping up. Seven amps per panel is what they advertise, and I have no doubt it would. My location is terrible one for solar gain, and that might also be a factor. Thanks for the heads up, though. For info, my four panels theoretically put out a max of 28 amps, and my controller is good for 35, so I am in a comfort zone there.
Jack
Yahoo Message Number: 64285 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/64285)
Leonard,
Sorry I didn't answer sooner. I installed the AM solar "kit" with two 150 amp panels and Heliotrope MPPT controller just before leaving Oregon mid Sept.
At Richmond VA lattitudes in October with full sun on flat mounted panels..
8.5 amps @ 9 am
10 amps @ 10 am
16 amps @ 1 pm
11 amps @ 3 pm
That is probably a best case with my mounting at that time of year and lattitude. Also, that is with new clean panels.
I did use 10 gauge for each panel to combiner box then 6 gauge to controller and batteries.
Hope this helps.
Terry Wertz
'97 Intrigue #10392
Yahoo Message Number: 64304 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/64304)
Thanks Terry
We both have 300 watts. You with the new AM panels and me with 4 X 75 Siemens. The max I have seen is 14 amps, briefly. Hard to find good clear skies in Oregon lately. The smallest cloud shadow really drops the output. With that aside, it looks like we are getting very close to the same output, taking the difference in Sun angle between VA. & OR. this time of year. Seems the next, best step is to add a 100 watt AM panel. Off hand it seems it would not be justified to replace my panels with the newer 150 watt AM panels. AM calms better performance in low light with the new panels. Don't know of anyway to measure that without having two rigs beside each other to compare. Then, there is the other thing of higher voltage output that allows the controller to use the addition volts to produce more amps, with the newer AM panels. Another thing hard to measure.
Received lots of good information in this response:
Leonard,
Sorry it took so long to reply but have been very busy. I have 4-100 watt panels on our Intrigue. They were installed by AM Solar in July of 2004. We have been extremely happy with their product and instalation. We normaly produce 22 to 24 (and up to 29 under ideal conditions) amps when the sun is out. Not only do they keep the batteries fully charged but allows us to leave the inverter on all the time.....great for TV and microwave whenever you want. The only time we run the generator is in the morning to make coffee and run my wife's hairdryer. We have 2 AGM 8D house batteries and 1 - 8D starting battery. These are the oiginal batteries and are now over 7 years old. Went to replace them last month and after load testing was told they don't need replacing. I was told the solar helps extend the battery life. I would highly recommend AM Solar.
Bill Holmes
Bill gives me hope I can reach the 20 amp goal. My biggest power drain is the Wabasto heating system. It is really a power hog. Think I need 20+ amps to keep up with it.
Thanks Terry, Bill and all the rest who have shared.
Leonard Kerns
97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 64323 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/64323)
Bill,
How long do you run your generator in the morning? Do you have satellite TV that is on most of that time or all evening AND you are running the microwav! That is amazing. I think you must be talking about summer months? Just curious since I also have 400 watts and a 3k watt inverter.
Rich 2002 Magna