Yahoo Message Number: 66548 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66548)
My '03 Magna's two original Lifeline 8D AGM batteries are near their end-of-life. A web search for replacements found that "Wholesale Batteries Direct" offers the "UB8D" a "12 V, 250 Ah 8D Deep Cycle AGM RV Battery" that replaces the Lifeline GPL-8D.
Does anyone have experience with the UB8D or with "Wholesale Batteries Direct"?
Thanks for any info on this,
Paul Thomas
'03 Magna 6239
Yahoo Message Number: 66551 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66551)
Paul,
I don't know anything about the Universal Brand, but for another 40.00 I can provide you with Lifelines and you would have piece of mind about the product. From the picture of their battery, it appears the blade posts are lead and not copper and the warranty is for one year vs 5 years prorated, 1 year full replacement with Lifeline. I'm not knocking the product, just noticed the differences.
I sent you an e-mail.
Tom
Trans-Specialists/Lifeline Batteries
01 Magna 5999
www.trans-specialists.net (http://www.trans-specialists.net/)
Yahoo Message Number: 66553 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66553)
$.02 - keep the change, from Smitty:)!
If you are replacing 2003 Lifelines now, and they served you well during this time, does that not speak of their quality and how well they've supported you?
As with oils, and Chevy vs Ford - Battery messages come down to the opinions of all us us, and we all may have diffent opinions.
-Some want the best reasonable quality they can get get, with reasonable costs.
-Others just want the best price they can get, with less then best quality being a reasonable compromise to them.
The definition of Qality and Reasonable, varies amontst us all...
Ok - so it was more like $.01...
Best,
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 66556 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66556)
Smitty,
When you say "speak of their quality" do you mean the AGMs lasted 7 years or because they were Lifelines?
Lead-Acid wet cell batteries can easily last 5 years or more. Is the difference in cost really justified?
Jim E
Yahoo Message Number: 66557 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66557)
This is a love/hate arguement to me because no one will win on which battery is better. I personally would gladly pay a couple hundred more to know that I will have a battery will last as long as a well taken care of flooded battery. The cost in time and energy spared in checking the water after super charging it and cleaning the terminal and dealing with the gasses floating around the battery bay with other expensive elactronics nearby let alone the extra rusted that is created by the gasses and exposed acid. To others this is a normal expected outcome and would rather do the extra required maintenance to save a couple hundred dollars per battery. That is one area of the motor home that I could care less in maintaining and I am paying to have it that way.
I have had so much rust over the years to deal with around flooded batteries on my restoration projects that it is just not worth it to me IMHO.
The day that the guy down at Les Scwhab in Junction City OR, convinced me to go AGM over flooded, I thought for a moment that this was going to be a really dumb idea and the cost would not be worth it. After paying for the visa bill a month later I really have appreciated the no maintenance thing around batteries with that much amperage and acid.
This is like argueing that a person with a $100,000 motorhome is better off than a person with a $400,000 motorhome who may be doing more deferred maintainence but taking on less depreciation. If you enjoy the ride and like a bit more 'do it yourself' deferred maintenance to end up in the same place with fewer dollars out of pocket, then you win this arguement of saving the most money. To each his own. Go flooded if you like maintaining your battery compartment or go AGM for those who would like to visit that area less often and have better things to do with their time.
One last comment, this opinion of mine is in no way intended to insult those that are watching their budget. I can totally understand the idea of flooded batteries are more cost effective per amp hour. I am just speaking to another point of view that there area other positive externalities that need to be considered in choosing a Battery.
Dallas 2004 ovation C12 11688
Yahoo Message Number: 66558 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66558)
In looking at the Lifeline web sites I notice there is no listing for AGM 8D start batteries and it has been suggested that if one gets the Lifeline 8D deep cycle batteries that you could use an 8D flooded battery like Interstate Workaholic with 1400 CCA as your start battery which seems like a good choice/combination.
On the other hand if one tries to find an 8D flooded deep cycle battery I can't find one listed on the Interstate web sites although they list smaller sizes under their RV/Marine section but labeled combination deep cycle/start.
Where are the listings for deep cycle flooded 8D batteries in case one wants to compare? You'd think it would be a simple matter to simply plug in 8D flooded or lead/acid deep cycle into the web search engines but it doesn't seem to work that way.
I'm leaning toward the Lifeline 8D AGM deep cycle house batteries and the Interstate Workaholic 1400CCA flooded start battery as the best overall combination when I replace.
Jim M
'02 Intrigue#11410 ISL 400
Yahoo Message Number: 66559 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66559)
Hi Jim,
It was the life, I figured over 8 years, as most likley the 2003 rig had 2003 batteries, and we are at the end of 2010. I don't know if the OP's batteries were flooded or not, but 8 years is a good life for a battery.
So many people with flooded batteries, sometime (and sometimes multiple times) - let the water get too low. This really can hurt the life of a battery.
I agree that a well cared less expensive battery can, and do, last over 5 years. Other factors come into play to, like reserves and amp hours are usually higher on the higher quality batteries. That is a life of usage, and possible safety item, when batteries have more reserve hours.
:) Dino, syn, chevy, ford, bud, coors, blond, red heads - we all have our ways of doing things:)! Smitty
Yahoo Message Number: 66560 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66560)
The local Sams Club has 8D batteries for around $120, my current Sams 8D chassis battery is over 5 years old, that one cost me around $95 and the Sams folk installed it for me. Most Sams clubs will not install them but I got lucky with a Sams Club near Knoxville, Tn. I think the secret to long life for these batteries is to keep them charged and water at proper level. Having solar panels helps because the batteries never get discharged. I've only had to add water to this battery two or three times and very little each time to keep the plates covered.
Ray
2000 Intrigue 11040
Yahoo Message Number: 66561 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66561)
Dallas, I cmopletely agree with you.
I'll only add that the durabiity of a battery is not measured by the years it lasts but by the cycles it lasts. On that score the science is in. Lifeline AGM batteries will far out perform flooded cell batteries on cycles.
As an example. I store my coach with 7 year old 8D Lifelines at a storage lot without power. I do not winterize. I set the the thermostat at 45 degrees with the Hydrohot on diesel. I have RC7GS set to start eh gen at 50% SOC and shut off at 90% SOC. I have done this since new so this is my 8th winter using this process. I do at least 30 and as many as 45 cycles with the systems managing the winter alone. I also do as few as 40 and as many as 60 nights of boondocking and the cycles that implies.
I also have 240 watts of solar on the roof and leave my BD-1 battery de-sulphator on the house bank most of the time.
So, in total I have at east 500 cycles on the house batteries and zero maintenance and zero compartment damage. I can still go all night of boondocking at 30 degrees with the coach at 70 degrees and a couple of hours of TV and other usage while dropping to 70% SOC.
For me, AGMs more than pay for themselves.
George
Yahoo Message Number: 66562 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66562)
Ooops, sorry. Hit the SEND before I finished signing.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 66563 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66563)
I have more than 20 years of experience with gell cell and later AGM designs in marine and RV applications The new technology batteries are like anything else The additional cost provides service features with the same energy performance The traditional design does provide value in many applications which does not cycle the energy requirement on a regular basis. I use all three types in different applications BUT when I WANT reliability and convenience I Use AGM. BOB. 06 intrigue 12047
Yahoo Message Number: 66564 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66564)
Jim
Deep Cycle batteries are not good for starting batteries, as they are not designed to supply the really large currents required for starting. They are, however designed to deliver much lower currents over a long period of time and short periods of discharge below the 50% point.
Marv Swenson: Intrigue # 11314
Yahoo Message Number: 66565 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66565)
George,
I completely missed that point on the cycles. I knew there was another point out there that caused me to go the direction of the AGM. Thanks for adding that point. I would agree with you that the number of cycles could make the AGM a better buy.
I set up my SOC the same way on my autostart. I have the desulfator too. Great minds think alike. I still am considering the solar panel but here in the pacific northwest we only get rain all the time. If I could figure out how to harness the wind and rain I would be the cat's meow.
Dallas 2004 ovation 11688
Yahoo Message Number: 66569 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66569)
George,
How cold do the winters get where you are located? I live in Tulsa, OK. It can get fairly cold here( zero or a little colder at times). I've been considering using a similar proceedure as you are using but I haven't been willing to trust my Hurricane heater that much. I've been considering it with two backup electric (thermosatically controlled) heaters, one in the plumbing bay and one in the coach.
Kevin Burns
00 Affinity 5865
Yahoo Message Number: 66570 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66570)
Oh come on George - sometimes we get snow in the PNW too!! It's not always raining!
Mark P
03Allure #30916
Yahoo Message Number: 66572 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66572)
I disagree with Marv. I had a 1999 Allure that started life with an 8D flooded starting battery, but after about one year was replaced with a Lifeline 8D AGM deep cycle battery. That Lifeline 8D AGM deep cycle battery served as my starting battery for the next 5 1/2 years. It started perfectly each and every time and seemed to start the engine better than the flooded battery even when the flooded battery was brand new. I used the AGM deep cycle battery for a starting battery at the suggestion of the head of customer service at CC at the time in 1999. I've forgotten his name but he was a full timer who lived in his Magna and had that setup. Worked perfectly!
Brian Davis
Coach #11901
'05 Intrigue OVTS
Yahoo Message Number: 66575 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66575)
Deep cycle battery From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_cycle_battery#mw-head), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_cycle_battery#p-search) A deep-cyclelead-acid battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery) is designed to be regularly deeply discharged using most of its capacity. In contrast, starter batteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_battery) (e.g. most automotive batteries) are designed to deliver short, high current burst for cranking the engine, and to be frequently discharged of only a very small part of their capacity. While a deep-cycle battery can be used as a starting battery, the lower "cranking amps" imply that an over-sized battery may need to be used.
The structural difference between deep cycle batteries and cranking batteries resides in the lead battery plates. Deep cycle battery plates are thicker, active plates, with higher-density active paste material, and thicker separators. Alloys used for the plates in a deep cycle battery may contain more antimony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimony) than for starting batteries. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_cycle_battery#cite_note-Linden02-0) The thicker battery plates resist corrosion through extended charge and discharge cycles.
Flooded batteries will decompose some water from the electrolyte during charging, and so regular maintenance of flooded batteries requires inspection of electrolyte level and addition of water. Major modes of failure of deep-cycle batteries are loss of the active material due to shedding of the plates, and corrosion of the internal grid that supports active material. The capacity of a deep cycle battery is usually limited by electorlyte capacity and not by the plate mass, to improve life expectancy. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_cycle_battery#cite_note-Linden02-0) A deep-cycle battery is designed to discharge between 50% and 80% depending on the manufacturer and construction of the battery. Although these batteries can be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge, [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_cycle_battery#cite_note-1) as there is a direct correlation between depth of discharge on your battery and the number of charge and discharge cycles it can perform.
Marv Swenson
Intrigue 11314
Yahoo Message Number: 66576 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66576)
James, there is no listing due to the fact that regular lifelines make excellent starting batteries. Been using them for my c-12 for 4 years.
Rich 2002 magna
Yahoo Message Number: 66580 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66580)
Jim
I have sealed Interstate starting batteries and they have required no maintenance and are going strong (just had the tested) after 5 years.
Deka AGM house and no corrosion.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348
Yahoo Message Number: 66582 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66582)
We have had this discussion so many times. Everyone has their opinion. To me, it comes down to this: If you do not want to be bothered checking the water level in your batteries, and you have more dollars then sense, buy AGMs. If you don't mind occasionally opening up the battery compartment and checking your batteries for water, and want to save dollars, buy flooded. They will last just as long (if you get quality flooded, like Trojan). It is as simple as that. All the talk about corrosion, etc, is nonsense. I have Trojan T-105 flooded and have NO corrosion. To me, it is a no-brainer. But people spend big bucks and then have to justify it, otherwise they appear foolish. At least, if you buy AGMs, you should be honest with yourself. Say 'I am too lazy to check my water levels and I don't mind spending the extra money to avoid it'. And yes, I know they also charge up a little quicker. Still not worth the extra money.
Al Colby
2000 Intrigue 10979 (with six Trojan T-105s)
Yahoo Message Number: 66584 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66584)
in the fall of '04 i put in (2) $250.00 AGA batteries in our CC. traded in may '06 we put our old AGAs in the replacment CC they failed '08 , this made a believer in AGMs out of me. The new ones cost $375. ea. we dry camp a lot, my wife has a Cpap machine so we use the inverter alot. just my $.02, for AGMs bob '02 Magna 6028
Yahoo Message Number: 66585 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66585)
for the record my AGMs are not Lifeline bob '02Magna6028 --- On Thu, 12/16/10, robert harbrecht wrote: From: robert harbrecht Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Lifeline AGM Battery Replacement TimeTo: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, December 16, 2010, 10:38 AM
in the fall of '04 i put in (2) $250.00 AGA batteries in our CC. traded in may '06 we put our old AGAs in the replacment CC they failed '08 , this made a believer in AGMs out of me. The new ones cost $375. ea. we dry camp a lot, my wife has a Cpap machine so we use the inverter alot. just my $.02, for AGMs bob '02 Magna 6028--- On Thu, 12/16/10, corralitos95076 wrote: From: corralitos95076 Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Lifeline AGM Battery Replacement TimeTo: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, December 16, 2010, 9:59 AM
We have had this discussion so many times. Everyone has their opinion. To me, it comes down to this: If you do not want to be bothered checking the water level in your batteries, and you have more dollars then sense, buy AGMs. If you don't mind occasionally opening up the battery compartment and checking your batteries for water, and want to save dollars, buy flooded. They will last just as long (if you get quality flooded, like Trojan). It is as simple as that. All the talk about corrosion, etc, is nonsense. I have Trojan T-105 flooded and have NO corrosion. To me, it is a no-brainer. But people spend big bucks and then have to justify it, otherwise they appear foolish. At least, if you buy AGMs, you should be honest with yourself. Say 'I am too lazy to check my water levels and I don't mind spending the extra money to avoid it'. And yes, I know they also charge up a little quicker. Still not worth the extra money. Al Colby2000 Intrigue 10979 (with six Trojan T-105s)
Yahoo Message Number: 66586 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66586)
As you and several others have stated the Lifeline 8D deep cycle batteries can be used as start batteries. Of course then there is the cost consideration. Lifelines cost at least 2X a top line flooded start battery with a much greater CCA starting specification and in a really cold situation that lesser CCA might indeed make a difference. The Lifeline dealer/distributers also don't make that recommendation although I'm sure they'd like to sell more batteries.
Jim M
'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL 400
Yahoo Message Number: 66587 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66587)
The list price of Lifeline D8 AGM's is around $650 each plus shipping (around $100) although if you shop around you can get maybe $150 off the total for each. Top of the line D8 flooded start batteries are a little over $200 each and flooded deep cycle batteries quite a bit more. At the prices you mention AGM's are a no brainer but price and cost/benefit ratio does make a difference. I presume that you mean AGM batteries not AGA or is AGA a brand?
Jim M
'02Intrigue #11410 ISL 400
Yahoo Message Number: 66588 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66588)
I went to the Interstate distributor and there flooded lead acid batts were about $200 ea. Sam's Club has the same ones for $124. Times six for a $650 AGM battery is about $3900 plus shipping. Sam's $744 plus tax for 6 flooded batteries sounds like a no brainer to me.
I questioned the Interstate distributor about the outgassing which was causing splattering and corrosion. He said "the bulk charge on these 8D flooded batteries should not exceed 8 amps ea., that's what they charge all there's at". My coach was bulk charging my 4 house batts at about 150 amps or 35 amps ea. So I regulated that down on my remote and now I can't even tell they are outgassing.
For all those that say the echo charger doesn't output enough amperage to charge the chassis batteries I would say they are wrong. I have two 8D chassis batteries and my EC outputs 15 amps. By information I received from Interstate Batteries that is about the max charge they should be subject to for longevity, maybe that's why CC built their coaches that way. I wonder if all those complaining about the corrosion caused by flooded lead acid batteries are over bulk charging them in the first place? Kevin Burns
00 Affinity #5865
Yahoo Message Number: 66589 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66589)
you are right they are AGMs, & $375.. out the door.for 8D's hope these last as long as the last pair... bob '02 Magna6028 --- On Thu, 12/16/10, James Monnahan wrote: From: James Monnahan Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Lifeline AGM Battery Replacement TimeTo: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, December 16, 2010, 11:20 AM
The list price of Lifeline D8 AGM's is around $650 each plus shipping (around $100) although if you shop around you can get maybe $150 off the total for each. Top of the line D8 flooded start batteries are a little over $200 each and flooded deep cycle batteries quite a bit more. At the prices you mention AGM's are a no brainer but price and cost/benefit ratio does make a difference. I presume that you mean AGM batteries not AGA or is AGA a brand? Jim M
'02Intrigue #11410 ISL 400
Yahoo Message Number: 66590 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66590)
Kevin,
I resemble that comment about spending a boat load on AGM's. :( Interesting comment about reducing the charging amps to reduce the gassing. That would make sense. The problem I have is that I camp off grid all the time so there are greater demands on the batteries. I want the generator to come on as little as possible... once a day preferrably for a couple hours. With (4) 8d AGM'S they charge up at 150amps so I can go from 55% SOC to 90% SOC in very little time. No limit on what charge they can take and how quick they take it.
Is it worth the extra $1800 they cost for 4 of them over the flooded batteries? In my opinion they are because I would spent the savings on diesel to run the generator longer, replacing the batteries more often by going through less cycles before the battery needs replacing. In the end, I am probably pretty close to break even.
Oh and I never have to maintain them which means my wife does not either if you know what I mean. I have the same opinion about why I personally installed the residential refrigerator, garbage disposal, macerator, extra house batteries, pure sine wave inverter and dishwasher in the motorhome the past month. My wife thinks of the motorhome as just another home.... priceless, which is why my wife agreed to buy this, our first motorhome, in the first place.
Dallas 2004 ovation C12 11688
Yahoo Message Number: 66592 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66592)
Jim
I don't the overall experience is with the Deka AGM (Schwabb) but they have worked for me. They are cheaper than the Lifeline .
Dan 2006 Allure 31348
Yahoo Message Number: 66593 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/66593)
Kevin
The faster charging rate is one of the reasons that people who dry camp prefer the AGM batteries. I have had three motor homes and several vehicles where the flooded batteries have caused a mess and I am glad I am done dealing with it.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348