Yahoo Message Number: 71683 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71683)
Looking for some opinions on fuel filter changing. Simply put, take off the old filter, fill the new filter with fuel and put it back on. But, a Cummins tech told me that they think it is much safer to put the filter on dry and then prime it via the rubber pump primer on the edge of some filters or by turning the key on and off multiple times thus priming it that way. There are probably multiple ways of priming it, but he said that pre filling it with fuel could be dangerous in that if there was trash in the fuel, it could go directly to an injector and possibly cause a big time problem. I had never heard this. Mikee, Ken, what say you. Is pre filling the filter a no no? Other folks have an opinion?
R. D. Vanderslice (King of Bad Fuel) Sob
P.S. Someone said on this forum that they cut a Fleetguard Filter open and found a very tiny filter element in a big container. I saw several "opened filters" today and they all were filled to capacity with an impressive looking element.
Yahoo Message Number: 71685 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71685)
Have changed my Cummins filters for ten years at once-a-year intervals. I have never pre-filled the filters with fuel. Always cycled the ignition key to the on position 4-5 times. Leave the key on for about a minute then turn off, wait 30 seconds and turn on again. After that, start it up. It may cough a little, but don't be alarmed.
This method is what the book says and the Cummins service department told me the same.
Rob
2002 Intrigue #11480
Yahoo Message Number: 71687 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71687)
Rob, that is exactly the way I have done it. I have noticed that the oil change services like to pre fill the filter. I guess they don't want to take the time to do it dry and then prime?
R. D. Vanderslice
Sob
Yahoo Message Number: 71688 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71688)
I just had the coach serviced at Speedco and they did not pre fill the filters. It took 3 cycles of the ignition to fill the filters.
Don
'02 Intrigue #11427
Yahoo Message Number: 71689 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71689)
RD..... this is the some do and some don't again. In our service business we always prefillled fuel filters. As for the dirty fuel getting into the filter you could argue dirt getting into a dry
filter unknowingly. What ever the case care is taken in handling the change. I also use an air blower to lightly pass over the filter before loading it with fuel.
I see your sign off on king of bad fuel and I know what your talking about with the bad (real bad) fuel fill you had with towing also a nightmare.
AL
00 affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 71690 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71690)
IF the system has a priming pump that actual works, it would always be my first choice. Put diesel on the rubber seal, install empty filter and prime with pump. BUT not all systems have a primer pump that will actual work, then fill the filter before install and start engine to finish.
Leonard
97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 71691 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71691)
That's a good point Leonard a primer pump that works. Why screw around with something you don't know works or not.
AL
00 affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 71692 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71692)
I had gotten some bad fuel a couple of months ago and SilverLeaf displayed it as a fault and I got a service engine light on the dash. I always carry a spare but I had no way to fill the new filter before putting it on. I had to wait until I got home and access to diesel. You can run a battery down and/or create a wicked vapor lock by not filling the filter first. Rod5206, SOB, former Allure 470, SN#31463
Yahoo Message Number: 71693 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71693)
If the fill is not filtered, you just bypassed the filter with the fuel. YES it could be a problem. Either filter the fuel you use to fill the filter or use the key to fill it.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 71699 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71699)
Rod is correct: on a CAT you can pump or crank all you want, will not work. New filter must be filled woth fuel by hand, and speaking from experience, same applies if you run out of fuel. Carry a filter wrench.
Rich 2002 magna
Yahoo Message Number: 71709 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71709)
Save your Prime Pump! I have worked on Diesel engines since 1973 now I show my age! At Cat Using a Clean and again Clean bucket of Fuel, Slowly pour the fuel in the filter! Nuff said! Ken Retired Cat Factory Trained Service tech! You would not want to pay me for hand priming you filter. BTW The service Man. is correct but fella's this is the real world! Ken 99 Allure 30356 Yes it has a Cummins!
Yahoo Message Number: 71712 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71712)
In my real Cummins world I follow the manufacturer's recommendation. Having changed my ISL 370 fuel filters many times over the last 7 years I can report that fuel priming with the Cummins lift pump is absolutely fool proof. I can think of no good reason to not follow the manufacturer's recommended procedure.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 71716 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71716)
Hi all
I am sure there is a bit conflicting info on this subject. The older Cummins engines (don't know when they changed) pre ISC,X,L and so on had a cam driven pump that also could thumb operated to bleed the fuel system. Using this pump with your thumb to fill the filter would have taken a lot of time. A big and strong thumb. Hence pre filling filter was the best option.
The new type of lift pump makes pre filling unnecessary .
Mar Swenson
2001 Intrigue 11314
Yahoo Message Number: 71724 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71724)
Only the engines with electric fuel pumps will be able to prime the filter. Prior to the electric fuel pumps, they were mechanical pumps , and of course you would have to turn the engine over for a long while to get the filter full, and therefore not recommended. I was told that if you did that on the mechanical fuel pump engines , there would be enough suction to destroy the filter innards. I would guess that the 04 or 05 engines ( Cat or Cummins ) and earlier were mechanical fuel pumps. All ISL engines were electric fuel pumps. Can't vouch for Cat or other sizes of Cummins
Ron Baran 09 magna 7025
Yahoo Message Number: 71725 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71725)
With one exception! The filters are after the lift pump and are therefore under positive pressure, cant suck the filter innards out. It is the same with the electric pumps, filters also under positive pressure from the pump. Also in older engines too much air in the filter will require that the air be bleed from the system by opening one of the low pressure fittings and the use of the thumb on the mechanical pump. If enough air gets into the Injector pump the injectors the will have to be purged of air. (bleeding the injectors) that is done by loosing each injector fitting while cranking and or with the engine running. Been there and done that on a 93 Dynasty with a 8.3 Cummins. My 2001 Cummins ISC has an electric lift pump.
Marv Intrigue #11314
Yahoo Message Number: 71732 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71732)
If you want to manually prime your fuel filters, it is safer to buy the cheapest ATF you can find. A fuel container can have contamination in it. A sealed bottle of ATF is highly likely to be completely clean. Also handy if you have to change filters on the road.
I got this tip from a Cummins seminar. Works for me and the engine can't tell ATF from fuel. No smoke.
George Harper
04 Allure
31093
Yahoo Message Number: 71733 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71733)
Very interesting. George, have you tried this? Could be a great on the road way to change filters. I'm a bit uneasy with the ATF but if it does not smoke then probably good.
Leonard
97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 71734 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71734)
Well, if Cummins says using ATF is ok, then I guess I'll try it? Thanks George!
Larry, 03 Allure, 30856
Yahoo Message Number: 71739 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71739)
Thanks to everyone on the fuel filter changing info. Appears that it is a Ford/Chevy thing as to whether to pre prime the filter or not. The Cummins Techs warning of pre filling the filter was that possible trashy fuel could go direct to an injector and cause costly problems. That's why he didn't like the idea, but, George brings up a solution that I have never heard of, using a new bottle of transmission fluid. Now the plot thickens. Anyone want to opine on this possibility. What say you. (Sorry, to much FOX TV)
R. D. Vanderslice
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 71740 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71740)
Using a new bottle of transmission fluid is exactly what a tech from Buddy Gregg did when he changed out a stopped up fuel filter on my 350 Cummins three years ago. It re-started back up with no hiccups.
Walt
2004 Inspire
Yahoo Message Number: 71741 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71741)
Ok, but do you use dextron or mercon? Ha Ha Kevin Burns
00 affinity 5865
Yahoo Message Number: 71742 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71742)
We could not find a bottle of either dextron or mercon so we used Ha Ha.
Walt
2004 Inspire
Yahoo Message Number: 71743 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71743)
Another thought to eliminate the possible use of trashy fuel in priming the filter is to filter the fuel going into the filter by using a double thickness of your wife's nylon hose. I do this all the time to filter spray lacquer before placing the lacquer in the spray gun.
Fritz 98 allure 30223
Yahoo Message Number: 71744 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71744)
Does your wife ever complain the next time she puts them on?
Bob Wexler
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 71747 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71747)
R D keep in mind some techs have more ideas then practical experience. Some of the BS they can come up with is well...remarkable. Had they spend more time reading service manuals, night schools, and doing better quality work with more care rather then sloppy work.
Never had heard about filling a filter with trans fluid. Do recall some truckers using Ford ATF. I qt in each saddle tank with a fill up.
Best regards,
AL
00 affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 71748 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71748)
Al, the transmission fluid in the filter sounds like the ideal solution, in that you can easily carry a couple of bottles of trans fluid, as opposed to hauling around a container of diesel fuel that is constantly deteriorating. Also, the trans fluid lubes the gasket and should be a quick, easy, and clean possibility. I would think that the trans fluid would be thicker and smoke some, but I sure don't know anything about it. We'll see what the rest of the group has to say and I hope Mikee and Ken chime in.
R. D. Vanderslice
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 71749 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71749)
Ken Here, Another Chime In, I enjoy all your posts on Fuel filter Prime fuel filter or use hand fuel prime pump or cycle you Ign Sw. On newer Diesels like the Cat C-15 No air is Allowed into this fuel system as a Injector failure do to Lack of Fuel Lube is certian! I know on newer Cummins I-SX and Cats Fuel injectors are around 1000.00 dollars! Each! In our shop I was told Im allowed getting air in the newer Common fuel rail systems only once then if I did it a second time I will pay out of my pocket for Damage. I was told use clean fuel and FILL THE FILTERS!!!! Dont believe me call your dealer! Ken retired Cat Tech. 99 Allure 30356.
Yahoo Message Number: 71750 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71750)
Yeh, lets wait to hear from them. We always used diesel fuel in a bucket which we built raising the discharge 2 inch above the bottem. Trans fluid is in fact ideal when out on the road to change a fuel filter. Sure does beat carrying diesel other then in the fuel tank.
Always something new on the CC Forum.....
AL
00 affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 71751 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71751)
Marv, I agree on your post BTW Some older diesels the filters are before the Mach, or Electric pump as a Racor water seperator is between the Tank and lift pump. I never had filter innards sucked out. In a way wish I were still working as these comments would get comments from co-worker's around the shop Ya know I spent lots of time on Cat Marine Diesels and they are still out there and Water is a biggie so most had 2 or 4 racor fuel filter's and the Engr, had a Ga. To measure filter glogging up and clear fuel bowls to see water. I know there are X-Cat tech's out there so Join in! I never told my Customers I was a RVer. Mainly to protect myself and keep the talking to a Min. Enjoy all the post's! Ken 99 Allure 30356.
Yahoo Message Number: 71769 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71769)
Any filter has an exit and an insit, or on input side, and and output side. The fuel goes in from the tank, and the fuel goes out to the motor.
So, what is the problem with putting fuel into a filter from a can, as long as you pour the fuel into the hole that would be the same hole as it goes into when it comes from the fuel tank. The challenge may be to figure out which hole, or set of holes this is, and avoid putting fuel into the other hole or holes. Use a funnel or a battery bulb.
Yahoo Message Number: 71774 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71774)
Problem with this is the big center hole is the out. Next to impossible to get fuel in the filter with the ring of little holes.
Leonard
97' Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 71778 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71778)
Ken, I have been told that it is very difficult to change filters without getting a very small amount of air in the system. Are you saying that on the newer engines it is different and they will not tolerate a very small amount of air without damage to an injector? Looks like there would be a great likely hood that there would be many, many damaged engines due to some of these oil change and service type places not taking the time to make sure they didn't get air in the system. You said Cat-15 and ISX's, what about newer ISL's?
R. D. Vanderslice
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 71803 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71803)
Even if you are a good enough aim, you still have to wait for the fuel to penetrate the filter media and fill the output chamber. Faster to pour both at once.
George Harper
04 Allure
31093
Yahoo Message Number: 71820 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71820)
Just get a pipe nipple the same size as center hole and screw it into the center hole. That is what most folks use.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 71842 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71842)
What am I missing! I thought you filled the entire filter You fill the outside chamber( little holes) and the inner chamber( large hole) so that the filter is totally filled.
Fritz
Yahoo Message Number: 71847 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71847)
R.D. You are correct! I had a Cat C-15 a co-worker was working on, Turns out all six injector's were destroyed! After replacing the injectors the engine ran fine. The problem is Cat rental units have a low fuel level shutdown but when units are sold to some endusers they disable this low level shutdown then the damage occurs. I remember my coworker spent a lot of time troubleshooting this, The Laptop was no help on this problem. Our Master Teacher was involved also. Again shop tech's good and bad are out there! A good tech will prime the filter but my old school real life is use clean container and clean fuel. Yes all larger diesels can not tolerate air in the fuel system's on High pressue fuel rails and pre fuel rail electronic inj. systems. Again you run this by a dealer and they will quote their service Man on fuel filter changing. BTW I enjoyed the post on ATF as never heard of this and I would run this by my Master Teacher for his thoughts if I were still working. I know truckers do things like this just like they add a gallon or two of Gasoline per tankful in Colder climents to allow the engine to run hotter but this was years ago with older Mach. Pumps and Injector's. Back in High school I was a outboard Mach. I use to Pickle a Mercury two stroke outboard with Marvel Mystry Oil for winter storage, Which I believe is like ATF. ATF in a newer diesel well I really dont know. I enjoy all your posts! Ken 99 Allure 30356
Yahoo Message Number: 71849 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71849)
Fritz,
The small outside holes are where the unfiltered fuel comes into the filter then goes through the filter media and out the large center hole to the engine. So if one can fill the filter through the little holes then the fuel goes through the filter media as the filter is filled. If one pours into the big hole then the fuel is not filtered. Using a nipple as Mikee suggest allows to fill through the little holes as the nipple acts as a dam. A good solution from Mikee and one I had not thought of.
Leonard
97' Magna 5418
Yahoo Message Number: 71851 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71851)
Leonard
Thanks for your reply. I was concerned that I was doing something wrong. My procedure is to use a clean gas container, filter the fuel using nylon stocking and fill the entire filter. My filter has to be manually. primed using the push piston on the engine. Less work if you fill the filter.
Fritz 98 Allure 30223
Yahoo Message Number: 71853 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71853)
My primer pump is a sick joke. Replaced with a new one and it was a double joke on me. The pump has to short of a stroke and to little of a piston to be of any use. Have to fill the filter, start and work to get all the air out. Our household has not had nylon stockings in so many years, kind of forgot what they are. he he. Looked at trying to find a better primer pump and gave up. When I worked for Cat, they had a very good one on the off-road diesels. Large unit that moved volumes to get the job done quick. Only pump I have seen that does the job as it should be done.
LIke the ATF ideal. Would really like to hear from more then one source that it is an acceptable practice. We would not think of using diesel fuel in a automatic transmission. So not totally convinced using ATF in a diesel is a good ideal. My concern is the ATF not burning clean and causing carbon to form on the nozzle tip.
Leonard
Yahoo Message Number: 71855 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/71855)
I replaced my primary with a racor filter assembly that has a primer pump on it which gives me a primer on the primary and the secondary cat filter assembly has one as well. I sill fill the filters using the outside holes before installing and have no troubles. I carry a small container with 2 gallons of deisel for emergency filter changes .
Marc 05 affinity #6429