Yahoo Message Number: 73362 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73362)
We have a Onan 8HDKAK in our 07 Allure and the following problem. When we run the genset the forward AC unit dosn't run.
When on the mains all is normal. The voltages at the pedestal, transfer switch and breaker box all measure L1 to ground 120V, L2 to ground 120V, L2 to L2 240V.
On the genset the voltages are, L1 to ground 120V, L2 to ground 120V and L1 to L2 0V. These voltages are the same from the genset terminal block through the system.
The EMS panel shows Gen and all lights are lit but there's no voltage to several of the breakers including the front AC.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73390 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73390)
Your generator does not produce 240 volts across L1 and L2. It has 2 120 legs in phase so the voltage across them will be 0. The voltage readings you have posted are the way they should be for both shore power and generator. You need to look a little harder at the Load Shedding device and breakers.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 73397 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73397)
Thank you Mikee,
With that information I'll look further at the Intellitec 50 Amp Smart EMS. It correctly shows "GenSet" with all lights lit when the gen is running but, it is shedding loads including the front AC unit.
Me-thinks I may have a failed component on the EMS board. Where to get a rebuilt and/or new board?
Thanks again,
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73398 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73398)
I. Agree the gen can produce 240 volts but in a MH application it provides two 120 volt legs in phase. Bob 06 intrigue 12047
Yahoo Message Number: 73401 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73401)
Buck,
They come in both flavors. In coaches that do not have any 240 volt appliances it makes no difference to the coach wiring, In fact a 50 to 30 amp pigtail creates the same condition for a street hookup. L1 to Neutral 120, L2 to Neutral 120 and L1 to L2 0 volts.
Don Seager
2004 Allure 31046
Yahoo Message Number: 73406 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73406)
Freind I agree with you, Rarely on smaller RV Generators 25 kw and under Single Phase will you have 240 volts across the Two Generator Mounted Breaker's, One way to find out as many times repairing them and removing them from a coach/Building etc. is a Jumper on the Generator side of the Two Gnnerator Breakers connectong L1 and L2,The other end of the Marked L1 and L2 coils are tied to eather a Neutral Bar/Bolt and or are Tied to the generator Stator Housing. Our 7 kw power tech had two breakers and each one allow's about 25 A/C Amps at 120 pass. Added total of Plus or Minus 50 total Amps. Yes you would and should get zero volts between L1 and L2! Keep us posted Ken Retired Cat Power Statems Tech. 99 Allure 30356
Yahoo Message Number: 73412 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73412)
UpDate. To further test the system I moved the power cord from the 50 amp plug on the park pedestal to the 30 amp plug. The system came up normally with the EMS announcing 30 amps and all circuits active. As I applied loads the EMS shut down as necessary to stay in limits. The front AC unit worked normally.
Does this juggest our house system, EMS etc., is set up with the expectation of multi phase, ie 240V across L1 & L2, input from the genset?
Boy this is fun!
Thanks,
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73417 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73417)
What this suggests to me is that there is something wrong with your 50 amp shore power. Have you checked your surge guard? They can do wierd things when shore power is bad.
Rich 2002 Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 73423 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73423)
Hi Rich -
Yes we've checked the shore power 50 and 30 amp and all is well. The surge guard is working fine, the problem(s) only occur when we run the genset. I checked the specs for the Onan 8-HDKAK and it's only rated for single phase 120 on each leg so it should not yield 240 L2 to L2.
The best I can come up with now is a failed component on the Intellitec EMS board.
When we run the gen all of the "shed loads" are dumped - any other souce, 30 and/or 50 amp and the system works OK.
Thanks,
Jim 07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73425 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73425)
Sounds like the shore power is either wired wrong or missing a neutral. I have seen that in the campground that I am at. The neutral was intermittant and corroded at a bad junction at the meter.
Jon Baum
Magna 5923
Yahoo Message Number: 73426 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73426)
Guys the shore power is OK, my problem only happens when we disconect it and use the genset!
When on the GENSET all the shed loads are dumped.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73432 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73432)
Buck,
The generator can be wired either way, 2 120 volt legs in phase or 2 120 legs 180 apart in phase. A lot of coaches use 240 volt appliances, dryer, stove, etc that require a generator that will provide 240 volts. Most coaches, with onan have 2 120 volt legs in phase. It is not an absolute, if you measure 120 on each leg to neutral, but 0 across L1 and L2 they are in phase, if you measure 240 across L1 and L2 they are 180 apart in phase. 180 apart in phase gives 240 volts, 2 120 legs in phase give 0 volts across L1 and L2 .
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 73433 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73433)
Jim,
Have you measured the voltage after the transfer switch when on generator? The easiest place would be the main panel in the coach. If you have 120 on both legs there the problem if after that if not it is before, move back towards the generator until you find the loss. It may be one contact in the transfer switch is failing, or one leg on the generator is dropping out. Let me know the results of these measurements.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 73455 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73455)
Mikee and others,
Thanks for all your help.
Here's the latest - I have 120V out on each side, L1 & L2, at the genset. On the input of the transfer switch I only have 120V on L2.
Something has gone open on L1 between the genset and the transfer switch. This wiring is buried in the ceiling(s) of the bays. Does anyone know if there are connections and/or devices in that line?
Thanks to all again,
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73456 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73456)
Jim,
I don't believe I have seen the answer to Mikee's question below. Have you measured the voltages (L1 - Neutral and L2 - Neutral) AT THE TRANSFER SWITCH -- both input to the transfer switch and output from the transfer switch. Maybe bad contactor on one one of the two lines from the generator. If the input to the transfer switch from the generator does not look right, then search back to the generator. I vaguely believe the breaker on the generator is TWO-POLE, even though the potential between L1 and L2 is zero volts -- bad breaker or generator.
Herb
Forum Moderator
Yahoo Message Number: 73457 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73457)
Jim,
While posting, I missed the post 7 minutes before mine -- about the time I started typing my previous reply!!!! Glad you have confirmed that it is before the transfer switch. Where did you measure at the generator? Before or after the breaker on the Generator?. Even though the breaker has only one handle, I seem to recall that it has L1 and L2 separated. I'll bet on the breaker.
Herb
Yahoo Message Number: 73458 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73458)
Hi Herb -
I measured the output of the genset after the breaker(s) at the connection block on the top right front of the unit. Got 120V on each side, one side is missing however at the input of the transfer switch.
This tells me I've lost continuity between the genset & the switch.
Before I dig in to the bays I'd like to know if there are any connections or other hardware along that line.
Thanks,
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73461 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73461)
On my coach, there is a 120 volt conduit junction box, above and behind the genset. Inside, the stranded conductor, flexible conduit from the genset is connected to solid conductor Romex wire with wire nuts. The wire nuts in mine were not very tight. If you have this junction box, it is a likely source of your problem.
Dave
2000 Allure #30444
Yahoo Message Number: 73464 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73464)
I just looked at ours and what I can see is some sort of straight connection between the flex cable and the run aft. I don't see a box or a way I can climb in there without putting the coach up on a hoist.
If the thing I see is the junction I'll just have to wait till we get to a shop.
I wonder if the "box" may be further aft in the overhead of one of the bays, I may be able to get to it that way.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73466 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73466)
There should be no junctions that are not in a junction box. They may have run individual conductors in conduit all the way to the transfer switch rather than using Romex in your coach. Or as you say, there could be a junction box elsewhere.
Good Luck,
Dave
2000 Allure #30444
Yahoo Message Number: 73486 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73486)
I think it is a direct run, with nothing else in between.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 73489 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73489)
Unfortunately I'm afraid it is Mikee.
Dave and others have said there should be a junction box aft of the genset that connects the flex conduit, needed to accommodate the gens in & out, coming out of the genset to the rigid conduit running aft to the t-switch.
On this coach it appears they made a straight connection between the flex and the rigid and pulled a wire set all the way with no connections.
If we have an "open" in that wire set we'll have to pull new wire(s) I guess.
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73492 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73492)
I would look for a loose connection at both ends of the wire set. That is more likely than an open wire, but anything is possible.
Happy Hunting and let us know what you find.
Thanks
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 73493 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73493)
Done that, in fact I reset all the connections at the genset and tightened them at the t-switch.
Think I'll dig into the overhead(s) of the bays today and see what I can see along that line.
We're having fun now, right?
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73496 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73496)
Jim, even though you tightened the connections at the genset, you may still have corrosion inside the connection. Remove the wire completely and wire brush the wire and the inside of the connector terminal. Do this at both ends. Then, if you still have the problem, go to a craft or sewing store and get some T-pins (get the largest ones they carry). At the genset end, follow along the wire toward the transfer switch to the last point that you can access the wire. Using pliers or a small hammer (with the genset off, the coach disconnected from shore power, and the inverter off) push a T-pin through the insulation and into the wire itself (make sure you are in an area where the pin can't touch anything). Turn on the genset and check the voltage at the T-pin. If you have voltage, remove the T-pin (the hole in the insulation should be too small to cause any problems but you can take a wrap of electrical tape over the hole to be sure). Then repeat the process at the transfer switch end. This will at least verify that the wire is indeed broken if it is. Given the size of wire that they use, I really have a hard time believing that the wire has broken without leaving bare wire exposed which should cause the genset breaker to trip if it is in contact with the frame somehere. The situation would be the same if the insulation has just been damaged by chaffing - the breaker would turn off but the voltage would still be there. Having gone through that analysis, I believe that if the voltage is 'dying' somewhere between the 'pins' then there just almost has to be a junction box buried somewhere (this doesn't mean that you can get to it - just that it exists) and that is where corrosion or loose contacts are causing the problem. If that is the case, pulling a new wire may be the simplest answer.
One last check that can be made requires some jury-rigging, but would give you one more piece of information. Disconnect the wire at the genset end and attach a long piece of wire to the power wire. Then, with your meter set on 'Ohms', measure the resistance between the end of the 'new' wire and the power wire end at the transfer switch. If you get high or infinite resistance, then the wire is truly broken or disconnected at some point. If you get low or reasonably low resistance, then the wire is not broken. However, this will also indicate that in all probability there is a loose connector somehere in the line. Many times a connection will ohm out as good, but will have enough resistance that when high current tries to flow, the resistance will be enough to cause all the voltage to drop across the 'bad' connection.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
John
'06 Inspire DaVinci #51905
Yahoo Message Number: 73498 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73498)
A simpler way is to purchase a proximity AC voltage detector and with the generator running just follow along the cable until there is no AC voltage present.
Charlie
Inspire 52093
Yahoo Message Number: 73499 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73499)
Charlie, I have one of those but just getting to the line(s) is just a but more than this OLD guy should be doing!
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73511 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73511)
except there are 2 hot lines in the conduit.. so there will always be voltage, one of them works.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 73525 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73525)
You are correct Mikee, but if the working leg is disconnected at the gen first then it should work.
Charlie
Yahoo Message Number: 73368 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73368)
If you have the EMS, and when you remove the panel cover to read your voltages you should have seen how the heavy load items are split to a relay bank so to control your loads while on 30amp vs 50amp. I would troubleshooting the EMS relay bank may have one locked up or a board that isn't sensing polarity correctly.
Best Regards,
Dave
Dave Rousey Jr./ Owner
Former CC Technician
Styleworks RV Repair &
Restoration
33070 Roberts Ct.
Coburg, OR 97408
(541) 543-7983
http://styleworksrvrepair.com (http://styleworksrvrepair.com) dave@...
Yahoo Message Number: 73374 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73374)
Thanks Dave,
Yes, the display says Gen Set but about half of breakers are cold including the front AC.
The mains measure 240 volts from L1 to L2, which I think is correct, the genset is zero volts between L1 and L2 is that normal?
Would this be a bad sense lead or a bad EMS board?
Thanks,
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73381 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73381)
Jim...
Sounds like you are losing one "leg" of the genset output...
If everything is normal with the coach plugged in to shore power, your problem is either the transfer switch or on the genset side of the transfer switch...
With the genset off, and the coach on shore power, measure the output of the transfer switch with a good vom... L1 to ground should be 120+ Volts, L2 to ground should be 120+ Volts, L1 to L2 should be 240+ Volts...
Next, with shore power dis-connected from the coach and the genset running, measure the output of the transfer switch with your vom... It should also read L1 = 120+Volts, L2 = 120+Volts, L1 to L2 = 240+ Volts...
If you don't have these voltages at the output of the transfer switch with the genset running, measure the voltages at the input to the transfer switch... If you have the voltages at the input, but not at the output, you have a bad transfer switch...
If you don't have all the voltages at the input to the transfer switch, you have a wiring problem between the genset and the transfer switch or a problem with the genset itself...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
=========================================================
Yahoo Message Number: 73386 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73386)
"Next, with shore power dis-connected from the coach and the genset running, measure the output of the transfer switch with your vom... It should also read L1 = 120+Volts, L2 = 120+Volts, L1 to L2 = 240+ Volts..."
Thanks Buck, this is what I'm trying to find out. At the output block of the genset I have 120 volts from L1 and L2 to ground and zero volts between L1 & L2.
Should L1/l2 at the genset be 240V???? If so that's where the problem is.
Thanks,
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73399 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73399)
Jim... Don't know about other coaches and gensets, but with my shore power dis-connected and the genset running, I measure 240 V between L1 and L2, on both the input terminals and the output terminals of the transfer switch...
Maybe someone else will chime in and confirm that you should or should not have have 240V between L1 & L2 from the genset in your particular coach...
buck
k7wn,'99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
=====================================================
Yahoo Message Number: 73402 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73402)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, the mystery deepens. Also I note the "shed load" priorities of the EMS have the bedroom AC unit going off before the living room. When on the genset it's running the bedroom OK but not the living room.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73411 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73411)
Jim...
I don't know what "EMS" is... If there is one in my coach, either I don't know what it is, or know it by another name...
In any case, it still sounds to me like you are losing one "leg" of your genset output... Seems to me that if things are "normal" while plugged in to shore power, then the culprit must be either the transfer switch or on the genset side of the transfer switch...
I base this premise on your statement that on genset power you lose several outlets and your front AC unit, but on shore power everything is normal...
You may have multiple problems... Strictly a "stab on the dark", but try re-setting your GFI AC outlets and see if you get your front outlets back...
Where are you now??? I am in central Florida...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 73376 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73376)
Yes that is normal on genset mode, when troubleshooting the relay bank you will see the lines coming in to the relay the back out to the load being A/C, etc..... So the only lines going through the EMS are the roof units, washer/ dryer, maybe water heater. I have changed out only the relay board/ control board. So if you have power coming in you should have it going out on 50amp, but on 30amp only certain loads can be used like only one roof unit it power shed's for you.
Regards,
Dave
Dave Rousey Jr./ Owner
Former CC Technician
Styleworks RV Repair &
Restoration
33070 Roberts Ct.
Coburg, OR 97408
(541) 543-7983
http://styleworksrvrepair.com (http://styleworksrvrepair.com) dave@...
Yahoo Message Number: 73459 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73459)
Hello,
There should only be the j-box where the generator is, so follow the romex flex line to the j-box. (Then it should be a straight shoot to the transfer switch or the surge guard depends on how it's wired.) I have had to r&r or re-tighten the wire nuts used to connect the wires many times.
Dave
Dave Rousey Jr./ Owner
Former CC Technician
Styleworks RV Repair &
Restoration
33070 Roberts Ct.
Coburg, OR 97408
(541) 543-7983
http://styleworksrvrepair.com (http://styleworksrvrepair.com) dave@...
Yahoo Message Number: 73460 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73460)
Thank you Dave,
If I can get my old creaky body in there somehow I'll see if I can take a look.
Best wishes to you and all the good tech folk how keep us on the road.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 73468 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73468)
Jim: When I lost my transfer switch, TS-50 the small board in the switch had gone bad. About 2"x11/2". I replaced the board, $35.00 and it fixed the problem. Barrie Boas 94 Concept 5111
Yahoo Message Number: 73472 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73472)
Thanks Barrie, but the problem now is we have voltage out of the genset but NO voltage going into the transfer switch on one leg.
We have an open somewhere along that line.
Best,
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73497 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73497)
We have others tools I would use in this case that would be multi-meter or a cry baby which attaches at one end then you follow the line until the cry baby goes off. Never open or make an pin hole on ac line insulation allows atmosphere to enter (sorry my opinion).
Dave
Dave Rousey Jr./ Owner
Former CC Technician
Styleworks RV Repair &
Restoration
33070 Roberts Ct.
Coburg, OR 97408
(541) 543-7983
http://styleworksrvrepair.com (http://styleworksrvrepair.com) dave@...
Yahoo Message Number: 73500 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73500)
I cleaned those connections pretty good when I reset them the other day. I just opened the front bay ceiling and I can see the 4 wires exiting the rigid conduit. They are taped with black tape every foot or so and secured a few places with plastic wire ties as they run aft.
I believe this "out of conduit" state goes all the way back to where they come down out of the ceiling and into the t-switch.
I'm pooped now so I think I'll leave the fix to the pros.
Thank you one and all,
Jim
07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 73507 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/73507)
I agree that there are other tools that trace down a break, but they tend to be rather expensive - not what the general do-it-yourselfer has. I also agree that if the power line is in locations that are subject to having water sit or drain across the pin hole location, then the pin idea is not good. However, I think that getting a good wrap of electrical tape over the area where the pin hole is will take care of the issue. When we installed an experimental radar on a Navy ship, we had a power issue and used the T-pin trick to determine where the problem was (the radar processor and displays were hundreds of feet and several decks away from the transmitter and antenna). We found the problem, repaired it, and had no problems during over 6-months of sea trials - definitely a worse case environment.
Jim, if you try the pin trick, then be sure to tape over the area with good electrical tape. Also, whenever you use electrical tape over electrical connections, be sure to pull the tape so that it stretches as you wrap the joint and be sure to put at least 2 layers over the area. This will help insure that the tape adheres to the wire and to itself and does not have loose areas for moisture to penetrate.
Regards,
John
'05 Inspire DaVinci #51905