Yahoo Message Number: 74047 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74047)
I was wondering if my 96 Intrigue had some kind of surge protector installed at the factory.
Dick. 96 Intrigue 10203
Yahoo Message Number: 74060 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74060)
Best way is to track the power line into the coach, to see if you can spot one. But, at least on all of the Progressive units we've had (Grand total of two: 1) 30A for our Bounder 2) Or Allure came stock with a 50A.), you will see a time delay from when you plug in for power, until when the 'check the condition of power' cycle is complete. Can be 30 seconds +, time delay. If no time delay for power in the coach when plugging in, good chance it does not have one.
Best of luck,
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 74067 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74067)
Well, sorry to say, my coach does not have a surge protector.
Checked the fuse panel, and the 110 schematic and could not find one.
Debating if I should purchase Auto former.
Thanks for the help. Dick
Yahoo Message Number: 74071 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74071)
IMO, Surge Protector 1st, Autoformer 2nd. Keep the Surge Protector infront of the Autoformer, if doing both.
Best of luck:)!
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 74073 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74073)
Dick, there was a surge protector of some sort in my original "96 Intrigue. I was told by cc that it should be adequate but I got nervous and when the coach was about 2 yrs. old I had a Surge Guard Auto power RV 50 amp. installed and it has saved me many times especially on low voltage. It was mounted in the compartment over the bed next to the electrical box, they drilled a couple of holes for the wires. For some reason it had to be mounted upside down, maybe wires were too short. Have to move wife's pillows to read it when hook up elec. but no issue to read it upside down. Had it done at a FMCA rally. Jim Veen, '96 36 ft. Intrigue, #10299.
Yahoo Message Number: 74078 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74078)
Sorry to disagree but the autoformer should be first. If you have a low voltage condition the autoformer will boost the voltage before it goes to the surge protector. Otherwise the surge protector will shut off the power before the autoformer has a chance to boost the voltage.
John Pratt
2006 Allure
Yahoo Message Number: 74083 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74083)
John - No worries on being sorry! And, I stand corrected, not the first time and will not be last... I did not look before I typed, I assumed I was 'protecting' the Hughes from high spikes... Bad assumption. (I still have not looked, but what you typed seems the way it should be.)
IMO - I was wrong:)!
Best to all,
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 74094 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74094)
Recently, I have had problems occurring only in middle of night with my 50 amp service shutting down and starting up again every 5 min or so -- really weird because it only occurs in the middle of the night -- when I spoke with the office of the campground here they told me to switch to 30amp - so far, on 30, it hasnt occurred. with the electricity shutting down and starting up every 5 min or so a few times on several nights, would that have damaged in any way my electrical system?? Do you folks feel it was in the power connection to my coach or something going wrong with my coach? thank you..
jan
06 Inspire 51898
Yahoo Message Number: 74095 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74095)
I agree with Smitty...
if the surge protector is installed downstream from the autoformer, you are leaving your $600.00 autoformer un-protected...
Most surge protectors only protect from voltage spikes... The very expensive surge protectors that will protect your coach from low voltage will not do so until the line voltage drops to around 104 Volts AC...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74096 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74096)
Your surge protector should be the model that also protects against low and high voltage. Your power source voltage was probably going too low or too high. The strange part is that it should have been happening on the 30 amp plug also.
Yahoo Message Number: 74097 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74097)
Jan...
The campground has wiring problems...
And they are aware of it, or would not know to advise you to switch to 30amps to "fix" the problem...
I suggest you find a campground with adequate wiring...
buck
k7wn. '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74098 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74098)
I forgot to sign my last post.
John pratt 2006 Allure
Yahoo Message Number: 74099 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74099)
From Jan's description of the problem, it sounds to me that her surge protector was shutting down due to low voltage...
After a "shut down", the surge protector will re-boot and re-connect power after a few minutes "rest"...
As to "it should have been happening on the 30 amp plug also", There are a myriad of reasons why it would work on 30 amps but not on 50amps...
Jan didn't tell us whether she actually went out to the shore power box and physically switched the line from the 50 amp plug to the 30 amp plug... Possibly she just changed her "power sharing" to 30 amps at the coach's power distribution panel... Either action would have limited the amperage draw, which would keep the line voltage from dropping...
Plenty of other reasons why it isn't happening at 30amps... Possibly a "lazy" 50 amp breaker in the shore power box, poor or loose connections or other wiring problems...
Without being there with my bevy of "flukes", I would bet that the campground has in-adequate wiring, that they know it, and thus tell anyone that has power problems to switch to 30 amps...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74100 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74100)
Has anyone heard of a combo gadget that does both jobs in one unit? Seems like a better idea.
Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure, 30226
Yahoo Message Number: 74110 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74110)
I was in a RV park that was operating on a generator which is a recipe for varying voltage. My surge protector kept shutting me down.
I switched to a 110 outlet and got through the night not without some apprehension about my electronics.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348
Yahoo Message Number: 74116 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74116)
Buck,
John pointed out that the Autoformer would help with lower voltages, doing what it is intended to do - raise/stabilize power. I could see his point. I have to go look at my setup, as I do not know what is online first on my rig... The protector would take away the benefit of raising the lower power?
Still has me thinking:)!
Best,
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 74119 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74119)
Smitty...
John is correct in that the function of the autoformer is to maintain the line voltage at a constant level...
The function of the surge-protector is to protect the coach from high voltage/amperage spikes and, in the case of some surge protectors, from lower voltage... The surge-protector will not raise the low voltage, it simply shuts down when the line voltage drops to around 104 volts...
John suggested that the autoformer be installed first in line from the shore-power, his reasoning being that surge-protector would not allow the autoformer to do it's job if installed downstream from the surge-protector ...
My points are:
1.) IF the autoformer is 1st in line from the shore power, it WILL NOT BE PROTECTED from high voltage/amperage spikes...
2.) If the surge-protector is installed 1st in line from shore power the autoformer WILL BE PROTECTED from high voltage/amperage spikes...
3.) Since most surge protectors don't shut down unless the voltage drops to around 104 volts, it will not prevent the autoformer from stabilizing the voltage until the line voltage drops below 104 volts...
If the line voltage drops to the point that the surge protector shuts down, it is time to crank up and move to a campground that has sufficient wiring to maintain a reasonable voltage/amperage level...
One other note about autoformers... Some campgrounds prohibit their use due to the fact that they think the autoformer uses more "electricity" and causes the line voltage to drop...
This is simply not the case... autoformers are extemely efficent, core and hysteresis losses are usually less than 2%... The autoformer actually helps keep the voltage up in the entire campground by preventing additional amperage draw from the coach's systems/appliances as the campground line voltage drops...
To "sum up"... methinks it best to install the autoformer in one of the coach's bays so the campground won't know you have one... and, install it down-stream from the surge-protector...
Kind of a long-winded answer to your query Smitty... short answer is: IMHO, placing the autoformer downstream from the surge protector would NOT take away the benefit of the autoformer...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74120 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74120)
I believe the autoformers all have surge protection built in also. All the Country Coaches that I know of have the more expensive surge protectors that protect against high and low voltage also. This is an important feature as you are much more likely to encounter high or low voltage than a spike or surge. Put your autoformer where you want but it will not work if you put it downstream from the surge/voltage protector. Its job is to raise voltage when it gets too low. If the surge/voltage protector sees low voltage in the line ahead of the autoformer, it will shut the line down. The $600 autoformer is now doing nothing.
John Pratt
2006 Allure 31308
Yahoo Message Number: 74125 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74125)
John, Buck - I'm again changing my opinion...
I do have the Progressive first in line, as it does more then protect for too low/too high/spikes. It also checks that the camp ground is wired correct (reversed polarity, open ground/neutrals). It has a better Joules rating ranges. It does cut off at a low of 104V, but I'm OK with this.
The Hughes RV450 is protected, and is also handling 104V up support, and providing more 'stable' power during internal surge needs within the coach.
So, I think I have this wired the right way. We have this in the cabinet space behind the bedroom TV. Progressive came hard wired from CC, and we added the RV450 downstream from this. I do not hear any humming, which I was asked once before on another board.
I sure can see it the way John talked about it too. But, I figured if it drops below 104v, I probably don't want to be on that parks power grid anyway:)!
I sure enjoy this board, and learn so much from all of the nice people who share their knowledge. I may have this wrong, but, it works, and I think I will keep it this way.
To each their own...
Best,
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
They verify that the CG pedestal is wired correctly before allowing power into you RV and disconnects it if problems occur after plug in. This includes high/low voltage, high/low Hz, reversed polarity, open ground/neutrals,
Yahoo Message Number: 74126 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74126)
Smitty...
Sounds to me like you have the situation well in hand...
Remember: "wrong", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74129 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74129)
One point
Autoformers do make conditions for the other people in the campground worse. In order for them to 'boost' the voltage to a usable level it has to draw more current which causes an increased voltage drop on the feed line.
The statement that if your surge protector trips out on low voltage it is time to move is valid. Low voltage causes more issues that surges simply because they are more numerous.
In my opinion (which is worth what you paid for it) save the money, space and weight on the autoformer and just make sure you have a good surge protector.
Dave
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 74139 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74139)
Hi David,
I'm not an electrician (proved that in this string:)!), but I've read this same comment on other boards. But, I've also then read from others - that this is not the case.
Good recent string over on Escapees about all of this. Some of that gang have strong electrical background.
One comment from Jack Mayer was about 30 or 50 Amp breakers in a RV Power Pole, will 'cap' what you can pull in. Can't pull more then the 30 or 50 Amp.
I just don't have enough knowledge to state one way of another. I did not put in the Hughes to cause problems for others in the park. But I do not feel that I am. If anyone is having problems with a low voltage situation, they should not be talking with those that have Autoformers, they should be talking to the park management that rented them a spot with inadequate power. That is how I look at this.
Just my opinion.
Best to all,
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 74145 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74145)
I have been watching this surge protector thread with great interest. No body has addressed the issue of a "open neutral" situation. If the neutral line comes open, you will have 240 VAC entering your coach which will do a lot of damage. Does your surge protector offer open neutral protection?
Chuck B
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 74147 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74147)
Yes, the Surge Guard (I looked, it was not Progressive.) does protect from neutral...
TRC site has spec's on this.
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 74151 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74151)
Dave...
Your statement: " Autoformers do make conditions for the other people in the campground worse." is simply not valid.
Also, your statement: "In order for them to 'boost' the voltage to a usable level it has to draw more current which causes an increased voltage drop on the feed line", is not valid when considering the TOTAL amperage drawn by a motorcoach...
Modern transformers (autoformers) operate at an efficiency in excess of 98%... Yes, there is a small loss (less than 2%) due to core losses and hysteresis, but it is minimal when compared to the increased amperage drawn by the coach's systems and appliances while trying to operate at reduced line voltage...
Without getting into a long-winded explanation of "power"(usually expressed in "watts"), Let me say that "Power" is a constant... As line voltage drops, the coach systems/appliances draw more amperage to maintain the "Power" level... Conversely, as line voltage increases, amperage drawn by coach systems/appliances decreases...
When considering the electrical draw of the coach and autoformer as a system, It becomes obvious that the autoformer, by keeping the coach line voltage at a reaonable level, reduces the total amperage drawn by the coach systems/appliances when compared to coach systems/appliances struggling to operate at the ridiculously low voltages available in some campgrounds...
To sum up, The benefits of the autoformer in reducing TOTAL coach amperage far outweigh the small losses that occur in the autoformer...
Nope, I do not sell autoformers...
buck,
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74153 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74153)
Smitty...
You don't have to be an "electrician" to have good judgement...
Dealing with electrical circuits always results in "trade-offs", and in your particular case, you decided to protect your $600 autoformer at the expense of not being able to stay in campgrounds that have ridiculously low voltages...
FWIW, IMHO, you made the right decision...
Rest assured that your Hughes autoformer will not cause problems for anyone...
Yep, there will be campgrounds and RVers that will accuse you of causing problems, but keep in mind that they are the victims of mis-information put forth by folks that don't understand (or just won't admit) that the autoformer reduces total coach amperage draw...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74155 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74155)
So... for me being an electrical laymen; if one did not want to have low voltage at an RV park or State Park; does one need to purchase a 50 AMP for a 50 AMP hookup and then purchase a 30AMP for a 30 AMP hookup? or will a 50 AMP work for both? And if you have a built in surge protector do you just plug in the autoformer, then plug in your coach? And do you have to hide the unit?
Sorry for not fully understanding all but the fact that this unit will increase the line voltage. I have defiantly been where, at certain times, the voltage will drop and my coach will switch to running on the inverter, then later when the electricity up to the correct voltage, will allow the electricity to pass through normally and bypass the inverter.
I am certain that there are a few more people on this group that would like to better understand the advantage of this autoformer, if someone would care to comment to us "electrically challenged". I have looked at the web site for this autoformer, but they don't tell you very much, I guess your just supposed to know about this stuff.
I would gladly spent the funds if it would better protect my unit over time.
All comments welcome!
Dan Nigro
08 45' Intrigue 12233
Yahoo Message Number: 74156 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74156)
Which models and what are the specs? Do all Surge Guard models have the open neutral protection? Once that protection is violated, can it be repaired?
Chuck B
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 74158 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74158)
Dan...
Will try to answer your queries...
50 amp will work for both, and 30 amp will work for both...
If plugged into 50 amp shorepower set your "power-sharing" at the inverter control panel to 50 amps, if plugged into 30 amps, set the "power sharing" at 30 amps... With 50 amp plug in, you should be able to run everything in the coach... With 30 amp plug in, you will be able to run only one AC/HeatPump and possibly the Microwave without tripping the 30 amp breaker...
Hide the autoformer??? Yep, I would... Although the autoformer reduces total coach amperage draw, there are campgounds and folks that mistakenly think autoformers drag down line voltage... If you just put it by the shore power pole, you will catch some "flack"... Autoformers are also prime targets for thieves, so, it is better to install it in a coach bay and keep it under wraps...
You certainly can put the autoformer out by the shore power and plug your coach into it... Or, you can install it in a storage bay and hard-wire it to the coach... If you do this, you have to decide whether to wire the autoformer "upstream" or "downstream" from the surge protector...
In your coach, your surge protector also protects from low voltage, (cuts off at about 104VAC) so the "trade-offs" are:
1.) with the autoformer wired "upstream" from the surge protector, you avoid the low voltage cutoff of the surge protector but open your $600 autoformer up to possible damage from surges which can reach values of thousands of volts at hundreds of amperes...
2.) wiring the autoformer "downstream" from the surge protector gives your $600 autoformer additional protection from surges, but may result in a "shut-down" when the campground line voltage drops below 104VAC.
In my humble opinion, If you are in a campground with voltage below 104 volts, you need to find a campground with adequate wiring..
There are other ways to deal with low campground voltage, but if you have plenty of cash, go for the autoformer...
If you don't have an autoformer, check the voltage at the site shore power BEFORE you level-up and put out the slides... If it is low, it will drop even lower when you plug in the coach... get a refund and go to another campground... If the campground refuses to give you a refund, get out your cellphone and ask "information" for the number for the County Electrical Inspector... This will result in an immediate refund... leave with a smile...
once hooked-up, monitor The voltage in the coach... if it drops below 112VAC, ask the office for a refund and go to another campground...
I always pay with a credit card, thus assuring a "credit" with a smile...
This may seem extreme, but it is far better than burning up an AC/HeatPump or other appliance/system by trying to run it on ridiculously low voltage...
Don't worry about being "electrically challenged"... All you have to know to be an electrician is: "Payday's on friday if the electricity don't kill you"...
I'm not an electrician and I don't sell autoformers...
Yes, I am opinionated...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74162 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74162)
Maybe I can offer some insight into electricity. Volts, amps are what makes up electrical consumption. The formula is P = IE. Simply stated Volts times amps equals watts. As voltage goes down amps go up to keep the watts the same. As voltage goes up amps go down. Thus if you are using 12,000 watts at 120 volts it is 100 amps. I am just using easy numbers here, keeps it simple. If the voltage drops to 100 then the amps goes up to 120. Other than the internal loss in an autoformer, it does not affect anyone else. The real problem is the power supply. Your coach's wattage consumption will remain constant as long as the load (stuff running) does not change. All power companies sell electricity by the watt, typically billed in kilo watts (1,000 watts), they do not sell by volts or amps. Watts are the only way to measure consumption.
With this being said, it is easy to see autoformers do not cause a problem, they make your electric stuff happy, while your consumption remains constant. You are suing the same amount of watts from the campground, the amps will vary based in voltage.
Hope this helps.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 74163 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74163)
The surge guard units protect pretty well. The down side they are sacrificial. Once they fail you must replace the entire unit. The maker will not sell parts. they would rather sell you a $650 unit. This as I see it is the down side to them.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 74164 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74164)
Mikee,
Well stated and precisely correct! I've explained it by using a see-saw as an example. Amperage on one end and voltage on the other. The fulcrum point is wattage......... which doesn't go up and down. Only the voltage and amperage will vary in order to maintain consistent wattage consumption.
Dave T
Yahoo Message Number: 74165 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74165)
I just read the info on the autoformer. According to them it kicks in at 116 volts and boosts 10%, not variable boost. If the park power gets to 95 it goes into bypass. Based on this if I were to add one I would put in after the surge unit. The surge unit cuts out at 104 volts. 104 x 110% = 114.4. This is starting to get pretty low. With it installed after the surge unit it can help until the park power gets too low. Then the surge unit will stop the electricity to the unit. It will help with marginal power, but the surge unit will cut off when the power gets poor. The autoformer goes into bypass at 95 volts. 95 x 110% = 104.5. This will let the surge unit stay on if it is put before the surge unit, however if the park power gets to 95 volts it is time to disconnect.
It will work in either place, before or after. I would rather have it after, this way it can help with marginal power, but if the power gets poor the coach will be cut off from the power, by the surge unit. This way you get good power, when the park power gets a little weak, but will be isolated when the park power gets really weak or poor.
If the park power gets that bad I do not want to be on it and will start my generator.
Your opinion may vary. Either way it will work. Neither one is "wrong", but I do not want devices to mast a real problem. I would rather know about it.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 74168 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74168)
Aptly stated Mikee... I envy your ability to clearly state what I have been trying to say with my long-winded emails...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060. SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74169 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74169)
Mikee...
There are many ways to protect from power surge, but most surge protectors use MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) which have the ability to conduct large loads to ground when their voltage rating is exceeded...
But, as you state, they degrade each time they take a large surge and will ultimately fail...
It's ridiculous that the makers will not sell replacement parts for their products...
I think Mouser Electronics will be able to furnish almost any component needed to repair whichever electrical/electronic circuit fails, including MOVs needed to repair surge protectors...
I always found the guys at Mouser eager to supply needed components or tell me where to get them if they did not have them in stock...
Nope, I don't work for Mouser...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74171 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74171)
The Progressive Industries EMS50C has replacable circuit boards in them. In fact, I have known where they replace their MOV board free of charge. It also has a micropressor circuit board that tests the MOV board each time you plug into a campground power source. If the processor board determines the MOV's has degraded, it will not allow power into the coach.
Chuck B
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 74173 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74173)
Does anyone have any idea how load power factor affects current levels ? Bob 06 intrigue 12047
Yahoo Message Number: 74174 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74174)
If you are asking how much the Amps will be reduced by correcting pf to 1.0, the answer is the Amps are reduced proportionately to the pf.
Example: A 25 Amp load with a .8 pf will draw only 20 Amps when corrected to 1.0 pf. In a 120 volt, 60 Hz system, this would require a 330uF capacitor to correct the pf to 1.0, assuming a lagging pf.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor) for a tutorial on pf.
Dave
2000 Allure
#30444
Yahoo Message Number: 74175 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74175)
Working in a Campground one time I was told be my Boss the Have folks with autoformers remove them or leave! My two cents. Ken 99 Allure 30356
Yahoo Message Number: 74176 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74176)
Hi all
I have been using a Hughes autoformer for years. I started with a 30 amp when I had another brand of Motor home that had 30 amp connection. When I changed to our first CC with 50 amps I continued to use the 30 amp Hughes Auto-former. After a time the higher use-age of a 50 amp coach overloaded the 30 amp Hughes. Hughes manafactorsugested a 50 amp unit for a 50 amp coach.
I travel on the back roads of our great country and find that the campgrounds that you find do not always have real good electric. Low voltage is somtime very marginal. There is not a lot of choice in some of the areas of the back roads for campgrounds. When the voltage is low (above the low voltage cuoff for the Hughes) I have been able to have the Motorhome function.
I did installed the Hughes inside a bay before the surge protector on the 94 Magna we had. The hughes failed because of over heating.
Since then I have used it at the park pedestal.
Bo & Kathleen Lee
2000 Magna #5896
Yahoo Message Number: 74180 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74180)
It does not have any bearing on it at all. It is a term used by electric companies to charge commercial customers more money. The charge commercial customers for what they use plus a percentage for the alleged power factor.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 74181 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74181)
So what you are saying is your boss did not have a clue.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 74188 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74188)
Some additional information:
Not all loads in a Motorhome are constant power. Current goes down as the voltage drops in heating elements, hot water heater, refrigerator, coffee pot, toaster, electric dryer, heating strips, etc. That means that if you increase the voltage via a transformer, current (power) is increased.
Motor loads tend to be constant power, as the motor slows down, the motor reverse voltage is reduced and the current increase, air conditioner compressor, fans, washer motor. Battery charger usually use some type digital converter that outputs a constant current.
Depending on their design (or I just don't know), microwaves, radios, TV's, modems, etc. may or may not be constant power.
The "bigee" is the compressor in the AC, if the voltage gets too low, they will draw excessive current and either burn out or it's life will be shortened. Don't think low voltage will permanently damage a TV or any of the "Heaters". Not sure about the microwave, haven't examined their design. Someone said the battery charger would cut off, I'll look at the specs (when the spirit moves me).
Bottom line, the parks and places we stay have "good" electricity. Something else, measure the voltage at your breaker box, measuring the voltage at an outlet may give an erroneous value. Especially on a 30A coach, the breaker on the park's panel will trip with a coach draw of less than 30A, assuming a voltage step up.
Joe n Judy
98 Intrigue 10578
Yahoo Message Number: 74195 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74195)
Simply put, autoformers increase current draw to make up for low voltage. It can't increase voltage out of thin air. Dave aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 74197 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74197)
Buck,
I appreciate Mikee trying to express the situation in simple terms but in doing so he has left out some important factors of AC circuits.
E x I = VA while E x I x the pf (power factor) = watts. For resistive loads the pf is unity so the results are the same. For reactive type loads such as motors the difference becomes important.
The concept of the power remaining a constant is simply not true. Take a 60 watt incandescent bulb connected to 120 supply with a dimmer switch. If this were true as the dimmer switch lowered the voltage the light would continue to draw 60 watts and you would not dim. The bulb dims because E = I x Z (impedance = resistance for a light bulb) and as the voltages drops so does the current and the Watts also drop thus the bulb dims. The formula still applies to a motor connected in place of the bulb. Here however the Z (impedance) is affected by a drop or raise in voltage such that lower voltages can result in a lower impedances thus the current can increase.
The Power is still I x E x pf and is whatever the math yields. Nothing is attemping to hold it at a constant.
Power companies bill residential customers on kilowatt hours not kilowatts. Kilowatts are a rate of using energy not an amount. Draw 1 kilowatt for 1 hour and you have consummed 1 kilowatt hour of energy.
Whether or not an auto-former has an adverse or beneficial effect on customers sharing the same circuit is totally dependant of the load profile at the time that the device corrects for high/low voltage. One cannot make any blanket statements about it. Campground owners are usually reacting through experience and seldom a technical background in power theory. They have seen cases where the auto-former caused even lower voltage for other customers so they simply say get rid of them.
Don Seager
2004 Allure 31046
Yahoo Message Number: 74207 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74207)
Don...
I appreciate your taking the time to comment...
IMHO, Mikee's example briefly and succinctly explains that the auto-former does not cause campground voltage to drop...
And while I fully admit that there are various and sundry factors and concepts that come "into play" in power distribution and appliance design, I don't think the average RVer should have to worry about them... Let's leave "power factor" and appliance design to the power distribution and design engineers and get back to enjoying life...
I am basically in agreement with your presentation and comments, but take issue with the following statement: "They have seen cases where the auto-former caused even lower voltage for other customers so they simply say get rid of them"...
The truth of the matter is:
THE VOLTAGE DROP IS CAUSED BY OUT-DATED, INADEQUATE, and/or POOR WIRING PRACTICES in the campgrounds.. NOT BY THE AUTOFORMER ! If campgrounds have adequate wiring, there will be no appreciable voltage drop as additional coaches hook up to the campground's electrical system, whether or not they are using autoformers...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74225 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74225)
Don
What you say is true, but goes far beyond what is needed to understand what is need to know for our coaches.
If you desire I can get into any type of engineering discussion you desire, but will not do it on this board as it is beyond the purpose of this board.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 74228 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74228)
If campgrounds have adequate wiring, there will be no need for an autoformer!
Dave
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 74229 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74229)
Dave...
Congratulations on "figgering out" that the problem is with campground wiring, and not with the autoformers...
I rest my case...
buck
k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad
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Yahoo Message Number: 74241 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74241)
Hi Friend, The campgrond I was workig in had Lowsey 30 Amp and under sized wire going to the Pedistals. The Pedistals each had their own breaker from the dist. Panel Box, The power was so bad if you put on a hair dryer the voltage went down to less then 100. This was a Members only campground and My Boss was very firm on this issue. You know Im sure in Modern Campgrounds the Wireing is like 2/0 or larger and is Daisy Chained. Im Enjoying this Thread as at One Time I was in The Generator Repair Biz. I like the Power factor issues on the table and reminds me of Cat Power Systems School I went to years ago. We have a lot of Talant on this group and were are here to help each other. Ken 99 Allure 30356 now in Yuma.
Yahoo Message Number: 74256 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74256)
Mikee,
If you agree that what I say is true than you ought to also agree that it leads to an opposite conclusion. Only one of the conclusions can be right so you can't agree with me and you at the same time.
Herb is the one to make the decisions as to what is needed to know about our coaches as well as what is beyond the purpose of his Yahoo Country Coach Owners Group. He does a great job but I wonder if he would agree that it is a 'board'.
No offense intended but it simply boils down to the fact that we disagree on the point. I would never us an auto-former so I have no vested interest with continuing this offline.
Sorry if I offended you and others on the group.
Don Seager
2004 Allure 31046
What you say is true, but goes far beyond what is needed to understand what is need to know for our coaches.
Yahoo Message Number: 74261 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/74261)
I never said the "problem" was with autoformers, I said the use of autoformers makes the low voltage problem to a degree worse for the rest of the units on the same feed.
Dave
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443