Yahoo Message Number: 78289 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78289)
My dash A/C is blowing fine but no longer providing cool air. The same thing happened a year ago. I had the system re-charged and it worked fine for several months.
I suspect I have lost coolant due to a leak somewhere. Is this something that I can trace myself? Perhaps a loose or bad fitting? I know that I can charge with coolant that has a dye included. But, where do I start looking for the leak(s)? Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure, 30226
Yahoo Message Number: 78290 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78290)
If you put a dye in your system you'll need a black light to look for it. Just hope that the leak is not in the evaporator coil. It is a bear to get to.
Steve & Jane
1998 Intrigue
#10557
______
Yahoo Message Number: 78292 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78292)
Daron, the system also uses ester oil lubricant to keep the compressor healthy. Quite often this will stain the hoses and fittings when the freon escapes, look around the hoses and fittings for oily stains. When our condenser cracked just past the inlet, the leak was obvious and a repair without replacing it was possible. Then add oil and recharge with freon and dye to check for future leaks? Good luck.....Skip 2002 Intrigue #11329
Yahoo Message Number: 78293 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78293)
The oil will show up on the high pressure side of the system. If there is no oil then its most likelyon the low pressure side. A lot of times its a loose connectionat the compressor. It gets the most vibration there.
Steve & Jane
1998 Intrigue
#10557
______
Yahoo Message Number: 78303 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78303)
We' had the same experience..... finally gave-up on dash-air as it was only barely adequate anyway. Now we simply run the genny while underway and keep the A/C going. Way better.
Cheers, Mel Shapiro
'03 LEXA
Yahoo Message Number: 78304 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78304)
Mel's plan is my plan too.
Two prior fixes, two prior bills, two failures . . . no more.
Lee
--
Lee (leozbrowski@... (leozbrowski@...)) 2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153
CAT C-13
Yahoo Message Number: 78311 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78311)
Daron,
There are a number of things you can do to possibly narrow down the problem. However, depends on how much you want to dig into the system and how much you want to invest in $$$ to repair. Especially for a system that is marginal at best to provide cooling in the coach. While, I still use my OTR AC, on really hot days I run the generator and roof AC.
Here are a few ideas you can consider:
Do you know if your compressor clutch is engaging and compressor is running? With engine running and AC turned on to MAX COOL, look at the center of the pully on the compressor. If the center is turning, then there is still a sufficient freon charge in the system. If the freon charge has leaked down the center of the pulley will not be turning or will be cycling on and off. There is a lower pressure switch on the accumulator that will disengage the clutch if the pressure is too low in order to protect the compressor. A cycling compressor clutch indicates there os still some remaining freon in the system. A compressor clutch not turning at all may indicate that all freon has escaped.
Has your coach been in storage without occasionally running the AC? If so, most likely you have a leak at the compressor. If you use your coach and AC with little storage time, then look at your compressor around and behind the pulley/clutch for any signs of oil. Compressor will leak if not occasionally used. Especially, those 14 years old.
Other areas of common leaks are the schrader valves in the servicing ports, fittings at the compressor and accumulator as well as the evaporator. The hoses run from the rear of the coach all the way to the evaporator at the front of the coach. Hose can chafe anywhere along the way resulting in a leak.
If you have no evidence of oil leakage and there is residual freon pressure, try some soap and water or get it serviced with some dye so you can find the leak with a black light. Some leaks may only show up only after running the system for several hours or more. If you have evidence of an oil leak, then you may need more refrigerant oil as part of the charge. If you have no freon pressure on the system, then the entire system needs to be pressurized to determine leak down rate. If the system is empty, some techs will use a static load of dry nitrogen, gauges and a sniffer to verify leaks.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 78335 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78335)
I have an 04' Allure. Dash air went hot only. In the front of yor coach there are two electronic dispensor valves that direct the either heat or
cold air to function. Replaced that valve and all is OK. Clamp off the hot water hose and then try the air conditioning.
Yahoo Message Number: 78341 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78341)
Recently, my dash air/heat/vent just stopped functioning - I heard a bit of a sound coming from behind the dash as if it was trying to work. I had no heat, a/c, no vent.
Not knowing very much at all about these things, I stopped at a repair place. It took them 10 minutes to "fix" my problem - it was a blown fuse. Now I need to find out where I would look to check this should it happen again so I can save myself time and money...... big learning curve here for me..... jan
06 Inspire DaVinci 51898
Yahoo Message Number: 78364 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78364)
Jim,
Thank you for your very comprehensive response. I tested the system a couple of days ago with a thermometer stuck into the A/C outlets in the drivers area with the fan set at low and the selector set at MAX COOL. The ambient outside air temp was @ 84 deg. F. After running the A/C for about 20 minutes, the thermometer read about 58-60 deg. I have been advised previously that this should read out at around 42 deg. F. Is that correct? Tomorrow I will inspect compressor while it is in operation per your instructions. Then, I will report my observations.
Daron
Yahoo Message Number: 78365 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78365)
If you are getting 58-60 deg sounds like you may need to add some refrigerant (R134A)
Steve & Jane
1998 Intrigue
#10557
______
Yahoo Message Number: 78366 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78366)
Isn't 20 degrees below ambient about all you can expect for temp. drop?
Dave
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 78373 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78373)
No. A properly operating automotive system with 134a refrigerant will do far better than that. To prove it to yourself simply put a thermometer in the outlet in your car. You'll find that it blows cold in any ambient temp.
My 2004 Allure, when set on A/C bringing in 95 degree outside ambient air, while cruising down the road, will blow at or below 50 degrees depending relative humidity.
Check your car and verify. Your coach is capable of the same performance as the system is the same.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78392 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78392)
Sounds like your system has some freon in it but it may not be enough. You will likly notice your compressor cycling on & off. The low pressure switch usually cuts it off at 20psi and then on at 45psi. Your air temp should be 40-45f with system in MAX COOL, fan on high and engine @ 1000rpm.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 78472 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78472)
To Jim Hughes and all others who responded, Thank you. I got a great education here.
Follow-up report.
Upon inspection I observed that the clutch was cycling. All hoses seem to be in good condition and properly secured. No evidence or chaffing. Yes, the coach has been in storage for several months in S. CA.
I was able to have an auto tech friend check it out. He has the proper gauges and fill system. When he removed the dust covers he advised me that one of the valves showed evidence of leakage into the dust cap. We cleaned the cap and he snugged up the guilty valve. Then, he proceeded to add about two canisters of refrigerant as he monitored the gauges. He advised that the valves should be replaced but that the freon would need to be recovered with shop equipment.
Success! Temp at outlets went down to 44 degrees at 700 RPM. I will monitor performance over the next several months during our summer trip.
BTW, in our experience, the dash air has been adequate to keep both driver and co-pilot comfortable most of the time. I do not believe that there is any appreciable sacrifice in fuel economy with the dash air on. On the other hand, I have been told that the gen-set drinks between .5 to .75 gallons per hour on my coach......But, that subject has been covered before.
This group is such a wonderful asset. Thanks again to all! Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure 30226
Yahoo Message Number: 78486 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78486)
Daren,
Glad you were able to find the problem and get working. Now your coll going down the road. Safe travels.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 78367 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78367)
You will only get at best 20 degree delta, so if the air coming in is 80 degrees only 60 degrees will come out.
Dave
Dave Rousey Jr./ Owner
Former CC Technician
Styleworks RV Repair &
Restoration LLC
4762 Long St.
Sweet Home, OR 97386
(541) 543-7983
http://styleworksrvrepair.com (http://styleworksrvrepair.com) dave@...
Yahoo Message Number: 78374 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78374)
That is not true Dave. A properly functioning 134a system will blow cold in any ambient temp once you are cruising down the highway. To verify this check the temp at the vents in your car. My coach dash A/C works extremely well. I don't need to run generator and rear roof A/C below 100 degrees ambient if dry and 95 degrees if humid. I do, however, have a short coach so larger coaches will have different results.
I do have clamps on hot water lines to the chassis HVAC heat exchanger. I have found that this makes a big difference to A/C performance.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78376 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78376)
I'm not an expert, but I think Dave has it right. If your temp drop is around 20 degrees that is a good drop and what you hope for.
If your coach is more than 20 degrees cooler than outside air, its probably because the air conditioning is set to recirculate inside air.
Jim
2005 Inspire#51225
Yahoo Message Number: 78377 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78377)
Not true Jim. The only time I run the dash air on recirc is when it is so hot (over 95) that I need to run the rear roof A/C. I otherwise bring in fresh air and see temps below 50 at the outlet. Test you car system and see what the results are.
This 20 degree difference story has been circulating for years and is simply not correct. I guarantee that your car will cool ambient air FAR more than 20 degrees and the system is identical to the coach.
I'm not and expert either but I do know how to stick thermometer in my dash vents and read the number. The reason I suggest you test the 20 degree theory on a car is that those systems run reliably while coach systems not so much so.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038.
Yahoo Message Number: 78378 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78378)
George, you are probably right. I guess I might be remembering the 20 degree drop from when I had a problem with our house air.
Jim
2005 Inspire
Yahoo Message Number: 78379 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78379)
Working on A/C systems since the early 90's , a good running unit will have 16-22 degree split (delta) between supply & return. Rule of thumb....
Here is a quick link I pulled up on Google for A/C temperature differential... It's for residential but the basics are the same..
Testing
Yahoo Message Number: 78380 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78380)
Thanks, good find I was looking for my data sheets but this will work.
Dave
Dave Rousey Jr./ Owner
Former CC Technician
Styleworks RV Repair &
Restoration LLC
4762 Long St.
Sweet Home, OR 97386
(541) 543-7983
http://styleworksrvrepair.com (http://styleworksrvrepair.com) dave@...
Yahoo Message Number: 78381 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78381)
Jim, I think you are exactly right.
Home systems are not designed to handle the extreme temps that we see in our cars. A 20 degree drop across a home system evaporator seems about right. It works because it is always drawing from the inside air rather than bringing in fresh air.
We've all come home from trips during which we have set the thermostat up. The amount of time it takes to catch up to the higher temps would be unacceptable to us in our cars.
My only point in gnawing on this is that, when properly functioning, our coach chassis A/Cs work exceptionally well.
For those who feel their dash A/C works, but not well, I suggest the first thing to do is clamp off the heater hoses to the heater core. It made a substantial difference for me.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78382 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78382)
Jim,
Your reference is to a home HVAC system. That is a completely different animal than an automotive system.
Below is a short comment from an A/C expert regarding the same issues.
"One can't really claim a number for all ambient temps. The hotter the ambient(air entering evaporator) the greater the heat(temp removed from it going through the evaporator. This is just newtons exponential law of cooling at work. So yes possible to see 50F drop across the evaporator at ambient of 100F, but if ambient is 70F, this same drop wont happen. The other factor is the vaporisation temp of the refrigerant, its not infinitely low either.
House aircons typically dont do as well as car ones in terms of temp reduction across the evaporator, just design. They arent having to cope with 130F interiors when left in the sun etc."
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78383 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78383)
Dave,
It's really not a good find as it deals with a home system.
Let's take it out of the realm of theory and put it to a test. An experiment if you will.
Assuming you have a car with a good A/C. Take your probe thermometer in the car with you on a hot day. When you get motoring down the highway, with the A/C on, take the temperature at the air outlet. If you are concerned that the system is recirculating, leave the windows open. I assure you that you will see closer to a 40 degree drop at a minimum. If it is really hot and dry the drop may approach 50 degrees.
Please, don't take my word for it. Test it.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78385 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78385)
I should ad that, in addition to humidity having an effect on outlet temp, so does fan speed. The higher the fan speed the higher the temperature. I suggest a medium fan speed for this experiment but can easily live with the results with the fan on high.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78386 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78386)
My 98 Allure Dash air was weak compared to my 04 Intrigue. I measured the temp at the vents directed at the driver and passenger and the outlet temp was 36 degrees with an outside temp of 90 degrees with the fan set one notch above low. Hope this gives you some help. If you are wear shorts the air will give you goose bumps even if the temp is 110 degrees out side. There is no way the roof aires can compete or equal my dash air.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731
Yahoo Message Number: 78401 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78401)
Tom,
Late in '03 since CC replace the 16,500 BTU chassis A/C with the 19.000 BTU unit in your Intrigue and my Allure. When these units are leak free and properly charged they are very effective.
The way I cool my coach on the road works well, though the coach is short at 33 feet. On a hot humid day I run the A/C just above the slow fan speed set on A/C which brings in fresh air. I open the roof vents about an inch or two without the fan running. This allows the warmest air in the coach to be evacuated out the roof. I aim the dash outlet vents to the center of the coach and the side vents toward the sides. I do have the heater hoses clamped to prevent any flow into the heater core. This brings in fresh air, cools it and drys it.
It it gets really hot and I am traveling into the sun I'll close the roof vents, turn on the generator and just the rear roof air and set the dash A/C to recirculate. That gives me the rear unit at 15,000 BTU and the dash unit at 19,000 BTU for a total of 34,000 BTU. Any comfortable temperature can be reached with this setup. I ran the same way in a 40 footer SOB previously and the results were the same though the rear unit was 13,500 BTU and the dash unit capacity is unknown by me.
If the dash A/C is not working well then everything changes. I had mine repaired for leaks two years ago. The leaks were at the compressor mounted access ports where the hose was connected. I had the hoses shortened a couple of inches to get to good rubber. Also replaced the ports. I have over 117,000 miles on the coach and always have the HVAC set to a position which runs the compressor. That helps to keep the seals oiled.
I'm glad yours works well Tom. It really helps make the coach a treat to drive.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78403 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78403)
George:
How do you clamp the heater hoses? TIA
Gil B
'05 Inspire 40'
51322
Yahoo Message Number: 78405 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78405)
Gil,
I use the common single hand gripper type clamps sold at Home Depot and Lowes. The single, main supply hose splits into two supplies in the area above and the passenger side of the generator on my coach. Those two hoses go into the split heater core. I use one clamp on each and simply squeeze them off so no water will flow to the core.
When winter comes I remove the clamps.
I just put a picture of the clamp I use in the Photos section in the Album "George in Birmingham"
Good luck.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78407 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78407)
Somewhere in that plumbing is a heater control valve (I think the tradesmen call it the "H Valve"). If you have to clamp off the heater hoses, I'm betting you have a defective valve.
I had two replaced under warranty in the first year of ownership. The third one works fine.
Jay
05 Inspire 51457
Yahoo Message Number: 78408 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78408)
Jay,
You're right. The valve on the Allure isn't really an "H" valve but is a variable flow valve controlled by the temperature selector on the dash panel. This is a valve sourced, as is the whole system, from Evans Tempcon. Both the passenger and drivers valves allow some coolant to pass even when off. I could replace them but my solution is 100% effective and has the additional benefit being free. I already had the clamps.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78409 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78409)
George
Do you turn off the booster pump then?
Dave
aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 78410 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78410)
George & all,
Some of you have suggested to clamp off the heater hoses.
What type of clamp does the best job with minimum possibility of damage to the rubber hose? Where did you locate them for easy access so that they may be removed if heat is desired? Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure 30226
Yahoo Message Number: 78411 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78411)
NAPA and others have a visegrip type tool that is designed to clamp shut a hose for maintenance and heater core replacement BOB
Yahoo Message Number: 78412 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78412)
Dave,
I don't turn off the pump. Might be a good idea though.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
Yahoo Message Number: 78413 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/78413)
Daron,
I put a picture of one of the clamps I use in the Photos section in the folder "George in Birmingham"
I put the clamps just to the passenger side of my generator and heater core. Very easily accessed for removal.
George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038