As the ammonia refrigerator has generated much postings, it appears that one needs to look at some facts. If one looks at this type of refrigerator in terms of units installed over the years in trailers and RVs, and homes dating back to the Servel gas refrigerator of the 1940s, and for food product processing, both meat and produce, refrigeration, less than 0.01% of this type of ammonia cycle system produces a hazardous condition. Perhaps the maker of our RV application has a higher failure rate, but still very low. There also appears to be more than one maker of gas absorption refrigerators, recently Sun Frost brand Gas was mentioned which is pricey. Looking at the Samsung RF197, the current heavily discussed replacement, it's cooling and defrost cycles each take 6 amps per the tech I just chatted with. If you discharge to 50%, 220 Ah X 2 flooded cells X 50% = 220/6 and assume the cooling cycle is continuous = 36 hours of refrigerator operation. For 1/4 quarter cycle operation (15 min on per hour), the refrigerator could run for several days before battery recharging would be required, but this assumes no other loads. My road experience indicates 4 hours of normal night living with the TV going, lights on, discharges the house battery bank to 50%, so adding a 6 amp load, would mean some use of the generator. During the day, there isn't much of a problem with 660 watts of solar on the roof with a MPPT charging system.
Fred Kovol
2000 Allure 30593
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Dallas on June 14, 2012, 03:16:36 am
Your math all makes sense except in the real world, I do have a Samsung RF197 in my 2004 intrigue and it uses about 13 amphrs per hour based upon the draw off the batteries going into the inverter with no other lights, appliances or parasitic draws on and it runs for at least 30 to 45 minutes per hour. Furthermore I do not get 50% battery usage after I drop below 90% SOC. In the real world I use just bulk charging (most efficient charging method) to recharge the batteries by the generator up to about 90% state of charge SOC. These Samsungs use very small compressors (2) and do work well with modified sine wave inverters as well as pure sine wave inverters. I have a pure sine wave inverter because some other appliances will not work correctly on square wave (modified). Not sure what that Samsung tech you spoke with was talking about with only 6 amphrs per hour (120 volts or at 12 volts?). There is no way that the RF197 only cycles for only 15 minutes an hour. Best case scenario is maybe every 30 minutes but I am pretty sure those compressors are running at least 45 minutes per hour. That Samsung RF 197 has LED lighting and very small compressors that are work horses and use very little electricity. They are rated at about 1 amphr per hour at 120 volts so reasonably that would translate into 12 to 14 amp hours per hour when converter from a 12 volt battery leaving room for inverter inefficiency. This does not add up to 6 amps at 12 volts as you state. The Samsung tech was not giving you good field info. Compared to my old LRIM 1200 norcold that was a perfectly good running refrigerator (if you like rock hard ice cream and warm milk), the Samsung is far more efficient. It has a third more capacity for taking up hardly any more room than the Norcold in the same cabinet. I boon dock all the time so I installed (4) 8D AGM house batteries and I have found that I get about 18 hours with all the appliances and lights I would use including sleeping time until my batteries reach 55% and then the generator kicks on and takes about 2 hours to bring the batteries back up to 90%. Many coaches have 2 house batteries so plan on 9 hours for normal usage or at least going throughout the night without draining the batteries below 50% SOC. That is another mathematical issue in calculating useful battery life while boon docking. It is too inefficient to charge the batteries past 90% since they enter the absorption charging mode and take less charge so the generator becomes far less efficient and takes another 2 hours to reach float charging or 100% SOC. Bottom line is that one should assume maybe 40% usable battery charge (not 50%)or what is called running your batteries between 90% state of charge down to 55% or 50% SOC. I use about $6 worth of Diesel every 18 hours and enjoy a residential refrigerator, dishwasher, microwave, LED lighting, TV, stereo, DVD player and no generator noise during the night. $6 dollars is still cheaper than the same amount of propane required to run a norcold for 18 hours I would think not to mention the cost of a quick overnight stay in an RV park. I have yet to find anyone that regrets spending $1200 for the Samsung and $400 dollars of cabinet work on this or any other RV websites. The biggest issue is for those that have not been in an RV that have a Samsung or the like, and actually experiencing the difference. If you are used to having a residential refrigerator in a house then there is no difference in a motor home. Obviously there is a cost associated with throwing away a good working Norcold LRIM but that is a probably on the shortlist of things that can go bad in the RV. My opinion is that there is nothing that will make a norcold a better option than a Samsung, or the like, out there if money matters when it comes to overhauling a norcold. I made the switch because I did not want to mess with old technology when new technology has now made residential refrigerators more practical for boon docking in recent years. The yellow energy guide that is posted on all refrigerators is what caught my eye. The Samsung RF197 had the lowest operating cost of any refrigerator its size....something like $45 per year on household electricity. I have two 8 year old 17 cubic foot sub zeros in my house kitchen and they each use three to four times more electricity so kudos to Samsung for creating a more energy efficient compressor.
Happy Wife, happy life.
This is just my opinion
Dallas
2004 42 intrigue 11688
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Kevin Waite on June 14, 2012, 10:38:39 am
Great information. I hope you do not feel that I am nit-picking because your post is very well written with good practical advice. That is what I always expect when I see a post by you. I am certain that the proponents of 120 V. compressor driven refrs would agree that the cost of diesel is outweighed by the capacity, convenience and safety issues. That said however, I have only one question. What reference did you use when you made the cost comparison of diesel to propane? How did you calculate that a gas absorption refer alone would use over $8 worth of propane? At $3 per gal, that would equate to over 2 1/2 gallons of propane over the 18 hour period. It has been my experience that the gas refr would use much less than that even in the highest ambient outside air temps. Am I correct in assuming that the issue got a little confused due to the fact that you run a multitude of other appliances on that same $18 worth of diesel? I have another question regarding the compressor driven refrs. Is the heat from the refr coils released into the coach interior as in most residential applications; or are they vented to the outside? If they vent to the interior, do you find this objectionable in locations with high exterior temperatures when running your roof air conditioners. There is one other factor regarding the extra draw on the alternator in travel but, that may be negligible.
Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure, 30226
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Allan Colby on June 14, 2012, 02:27:30 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 80150 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/80150)Thanks for the common sense post, Fred. I have a Dometic fridge, with all upgrades, and I sleep just fine. Bob Livingston discussed this in a recent article in Motorhome magazine. If you look at the facts, and not the hysteria, ammonia cycle systems have been demonstrated to be reliable. There may be a quality issue with Norcold, I don't know, but overall there is really no reason for panic over all such refrigerators. I like not having to run the generator while boondocking. No way am I going to spend money throwing away a perfectly good unit, only to not be able to dry camp without constantly starting the genset.
Al Colby
2000 Intrigue 10979
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Walt Leutwyler on June 14, 2012, 02:37:06 pm
Your post below brings a question to me, even despite the fact that I just bought a new Samsung, has there been fires with a Norcold after it has been fitted with the re-call updates? Does anybody know of a fire? Walt
2004 Inspire
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Mike948@aol Com on June 14, 2012, 02:40:36 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 80152 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/80152)I Talked to norcold yesterday and they said they did not know of any but I'm not sure if I believe them
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Rich on June 15, 2012, 11:34:38 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 80191 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/80191)I'm with Al. This is a Norcold problem. I sleep fine with my Swedish Dometic. Dometic goes back to the original refrigerators
Rich 2002 Magna.
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: FrederickK on June 16, 2012, 11:36:04 am
Yahoo Message Number: 80194 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/80194)The paragraph below marked ***********, needs correction for the length of hours the Samsung RF197 can operate - I made a mistake. Starting with 220 Ah / 33.3 = about 7 hours to discharge a flooded cell 8D battery bank to 50%. Here is the corrected math. The RF197 uses 6 amps at 120 vac, assuming a 90% inverter efficiency, and a 1/2 duty cooling cycle (30 min. per hour for the RF197), the Ah used per hour is (6 X 10)/0.9 = 66.6 Ah at 12 vdc / 2 = 33.3. In my case, with 660 watts of solar panels, The refrigerator takes 720 watts, but at 1/2 cooling cycle, the comparison is 660 v 360 or about 300 x 0.9 or 270 watts during daylight hours remaining. Not much of a margin for other loads.
Fred Kovol
Quote
Hi Folks,
As the ammonia refrigerator has generated much postings, it appears that one needs to look at some facts. If one looks at this type of refrigerator in terms of units installed over the years in trailers and RVs, and homes dating back to the Servel gas refrigerator of the 1940s, and for food product processing, both meat and produce, refrigeration, less than 0.01% of this type of ammonia cycle system produces a hazardous condition. Perhaps the maker of our RV application has a higher failure rate, but still very low. There also appears to be more than one maker of gas absorption refrigerators, recently Sun Frost brand Gas was mentioned which is pricey. Looking at the Samsung RF197, the current heavily discussed replacement, it's cooling and defrost cycles each take 6 amps per the tech I just chatted with.
***********************If you discharge to 50%, 220 Ah X 2 flooded cells X 50% = 220/6 and assume the cooling cycle is continuous = 36 hours of refrigerator operation. For 1/4 quarter cycle operation (15 min on per hour), the refrigerator could run for several days before battery recharging would be required, but this assumes no other loads.
My road experience indicates 4 hours of normal night living with the TV going, lights on, discharges the house battery bank to 50%, so adding a 6 amp load, would mean some use of the generator.
During the day, there isn't much of a problem with 660 watts of solar on the roof with a MPPT charging system.
Fred Kovol
2000 Allure 30593
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Bob Wexler on June 16, 2012, 12:26:35 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 80195 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/80195)Your math may be accurate but you assumptions do not match what I see on my kill a watt meter. I admit I do not watch it 7/24, but I have never seen it over 200 watts and typically it is at 100 Watts 120 volts. If you average 144 watts decided by 12 volts that would be 12 amps per hour 50% duty cycle = 6 amps / .9 round IP to 7 amps per hour at 12 volts. That would allow about 15 hours for your 110 amp hour battery or your dollar would barely notice the load. Just my real life observations YMMV. Bob WEXLER SOB
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Dallas on June 17, 2012, 02:15:04 am
I think I said that I use about 2 hrs of generator for 18 hours of boon docking with the residential refrigerator and all other normal electrical uses. So the diesel usage would be about 1 gallon per hour multiplied be 2 hours. Add 18 hours plus another 2 hours on the generator and I get about 20 hours of battery life including the 2 hours the generator must run to recharge from 55% SOC to 90% SOC. so in a 24 hour period I would be using approximately $10.00 of diesel to be an all electric coach with the 4 AGM batteries on board. I also converted me coach to mainly LED lighting too. I also run a load of laundry and the dish washer I installed while the generator is running for those two hours. How does that compare to the cost of propane over 24 hours? I don't know because i was in too much of a hurry to get rid of my perfectly good working norcold after I bought my coach and used it for two trips, so I never had a chance to see how much propane a boondocker uses with a norcold in a 24 hour period. I would imagine that at some point a boondocker needs to start the engine or generator because microwaves, tv's and light don't run on propane. Nether does the dryer or the heat cycle on the dishwasher. Truth be told, it was my wife that wanted a simple to use refrigerator that works like the one in our house. She did not like the size of the LRIM 1200 and did not like how it took so long to cool down. She read a story about the norcold problem and told me she was all for getting rid of it so I did. Thanks to others before me that identified the Samsung rf197, and how it would fit with minor modifications to height, I made the change. I do not regret it for one minute. Everyone that sees it in our coach wants one their coach, especially the wives. I sense some resistance by the guys who think propane is the better way to go though. I don't agree but that is just my opinion. I pretty much only boon dock so that is not an issue with me at all. I am fine with spending $10.00 per day on running my diesel generator for 2 hrs or letting the coach engine recharge the batteries as we cruise down the road. Many times we go longer than 18 hours before a recharge and many times we are camped for less than 18 hors so the engine does the recharge. With regards to the heat put out be the Samsung. There is none! Well almost none. My infrared temperature gauge picks up a 1 degree rise inside the refrigerator cabinet with the only vet being the bottom of the refrigerator into the cabin area. I sealed off the old top and rear vent. Those small compressors are very low users of electricity so neglible heat is put out. That is a very kewl part of is refrigerator. It uses 13 amp hours per hour for at least 40 minutes per hour but they are small compressors and very energy efficient. That would be the equivalent of about 1 amp hour per hour at 120 volts (household electricity). Fred does not have the math totally correct implying that the samsung uses 6 amp hours per hour. I have measured it with my magnum inverter monitor to know that it is between 11 to 13 amp hours per hour with no other parasitic draws in the coach. Lyle can vouch for that too since he has the same Samsung in his coach and we did comparative tests. Daron, hope that clears up my comments...or at least provides for a good bed time story.
Just my opinion.
Dallas 2004 intrigue 11688
Title: Re: Replacement Refrigerator Issues
Post by: Lyle on June 17, 2012, 11:51:37 am
As Dallas and I were comparing notes on the Samsung electrical usage I was amazed to see a 10 DC Amp parasitic draw when everything I could turn off in the coach was off. As it turned out it was the Bose system. When I flipped the audio breaker off the draw went to zero. Power to the Bose control in the audio cabinet comes from the hidden woofer and it is on all the time, even when the Bose control is off. Just so additional info for the hardcore boondocker. Lyle Wetherholt 04 Intrigue 11740
Daron, > I think I said that I use about 2 hrs of generator for 18 hours of boon docking with the residential refrigerator and all other normal electrical uses. So the
Title: Bay locks
Post by: Edward Myles on August 07, 2012, 10:59:32 pm
My bay locks will not lock or unlock with key fob or at intell pads. There is a click near drivers seat when I press pads, but no action. Is there a fuse or controller I need to investigate? Other pads controlling other lights and steps etc do work properly. Thanks for any thoughts.... Ed
2008 Intrigue
=
Title: Re: Bay locks
Post by: Uscctrn on August 08, 2012, 12:17:35 am
Yahoo Message Number: 81470 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/81470)Ed On my 04 Intrigue I had the same click with the switch or with the key fob. With someone on this groups help I found the control board under the dash but at a full arms reach. It has wire plugs and fuses. After finding the fuses ok I found one of the wire plugs loose.
Lowell
#11725 04 Intrigue
On the road in Wichita, KS
Title: Re: Bay locks
Post by: Edward Myles on August 08, 2012, 08:43:39 pm
Figured out the bay locks are tied to chassis batteries, like step. I had flipped switch to chassis batteries to prevent parasitic drain. When power from chassis restored, locks were operational again Ed