Yahoo Message Number: 83063 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83063)
All the discussion about Norcold and Dometic units and the potential of fire concerns everyone. My Dometic model NDR1292 has a failed cooling unit. Unfortunately I found this out as I was getting the coach ready for a trip.
I had the coach on shore power and had turned on the refrigerator to get it ready for supplies. The LP tank was turned off at the tank. The next day I had checked and freezer had light frost and refrigerator was cold at 36f. Two days later I went to load supplies and found the inside of the refrigerator at almost 90f inside it. Control panel was on and no indication of failure. I went outside and removed access panel and found the heating elements still on and the heat shield hot. I immediately turned off the control panel, unplugged the 120vac power cord and once cooled down for about 20 minutes, I opened up the area and disconnected the 12vdc power to the control board.
At first I thought I may have had a potential fire issue, but the problem turned out to be electric heating elements that did not turn off when the cooling unit failed more than 24 hours earlier. The heating elements heated the area to the point of melting the control board cover and damaging some wiring that was routed too close to the heat stack. The wires burned together and may have shorted. The burned wires were in the main control cable that runs from the upper control panel inside to the control board on the back of the refrigerator. The control board seems to be OK with no burned areas or loose solder connections.
There are many questions in my mind as to the "what if...". Time, fuel, and ignition all playing a part. Those are all unknown and very speculative. Should the system have a fail safe to turn off power if internal or external temperature rises above a certain point? In the coming days, I hope to get some answers from Dometic for that along with a few other questions.
My refrigerator has no recalls according to Dometic or the NHTSB. It is 12 years old and has operated flawlessly for the whole time. Nothing lasts forever. So I guess it is time to decide to next course of action. Because of the shape, size and location of the unit, it is unlikely there is a household type refrigerator that can be slid in its palce. Besides, I really do not want to give up the propane capability for dry camping use. Dometic does not manufacture the NDR1292 any longer and there is no replacement model. So it looks like a new replacement cooling unit is in order. With all the good reviews of the Amish built cooling units available through Pine RV and others, I will give careful consideration to take that route.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 83092 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83092)
I also have and Dometic NDR 1292. Something in the area of the cooling unit got hot enough to cause the plastic cover on the fridge bay to droop. I've had OMC look at our unit. They sent pictures to Dometic. Neither OMC nor Dometic can figure out where the heat came from. Inside the fridge bay, there is no obvious source of the heat. In fact, there is a plastic water line for the ice maker just behind the point where the plastic is drooped. It was not affected by the heat source. In the meantime, the fridge is off and not being used. I have an appointment at OMC to pull the fridge and try and see if they can figure out the source of the problem.
As you work through your issue, I'd appreciate knowing if you find something more specific.
Paul Onerheim
2004 Magna #6301
Yahoo Message Number: 83118 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83118)
So, I've a question about the absorption frig. I've read that you should not use propane to cool the unit while on the road. So do I use my invertor to run it? I'm very new to this so I'd rather ask then have a problem later on down the road. Thanks, John 2003 Allure 30951
Yahoo Message Number: 83120 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83120)
John,
There are some folks that are concerned with running there refer on gas while on the road. But, the vast majority of us use them as designed. Mine is always set on AUTO so that it runs on 120 whenever plugged in or the generator is running. While traveling it always runs on propane.
If there was a problem with this operational method there would be a strongly worded warning in yellow and red on the refer. The owners manual does not even say a word about not traveling on gas mode.
Good luck
George in Birmingham
'03 Magna 6298
Yahoo Message Number: 83122 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83122)
I have been running Dometics on propane while running down the road for over 20 years. They are designed to do this no problem. Sometimes they need a baffle in front of the burner to avoid wind problems when driving. Dometic has these.
Rich 2002 Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 83125 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83125)
John - I don't use the propane feature. I don't think there are adequate safety devices present for that heat source. Having a lit flame subject to air currents doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Not sure how the frig controls deal with blow outs, restarts, etc. In our case, I have made modifications to allow the frig heaters to run off the invertor. In DC amps this load is between 16 and 40. Easily covered. Our invertor is a pure sine wave unit. The solid state pulse width modulation circuit on the control board throttles the heaters. These circuits may have issues with other AC wave shapes. I have tested my mods when we moved from Park City, UT to Montrose, CO. A six hour trip taking us through 100F weather. Everything worked as expected. Writing this up is on my "to do" list. It remains a viable option for those looking for this type of solution.
Paul - With our frig, the absorber vessel is close to the plastic access cover. I'll guarantee you that plastic melted because of heat. A really hot absorber vessel plus a sun load could generate enough heat to melt plastic. You were wise to shut down the frig and look further into this. Please keep us informed on what is discovered.
At 05:29 PM 10/9/2012, you wrote:
Yahoo Message Number: 83134 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83134)
I usually have the generator running away for the roof air, so the refrigerator is on AC power. Traveling in the south, the OTR AC is not enough for a comfortable ride. I typically have my propane tank turned off while in motion. I use the propane for the refrigerator when dry camping or when on limited power.
Some Dometics have a 3-way design. AC, DC or propane. My NDR1292 is only a 2-way. Either AC or propane. I suppose you could use your inverter provided your house batteries are sufficient and the inverter is a pure sine wave. Electronic controls normally do not like modified sine wave power and I avoid even trying to use such.
The NDR1292 like most has an automatic cutoff in propane mode and if the flame goes out the thermocouple that is in the flame's path will cause the selenoid valve to close the propane supply. Like all equipment, there is scheduled maintenance that needs to be performed to keep everything operating as they should. Like our own bodies, age is the only thing we have no control over.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 83137 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83137)
Jim - On the Norcold 1200 LRIM there is no thermocouple. The presence of a flame is sensed through some sort of resistance measurement taken from the igniter to ground. This is a fundamentally different system than the traditional thermocouple systems like those found on residential gas heating systems. Some may remember the old BASO units.
Also battery condition isn't an issue for running the frig off an invertor while travelling as the alternator (mine is 165 amps) can easily cover the 16-40 amp additional DC load. I continue to struggle with the aging process without much progress or success.
At 08:13 AM 10/10/2012, you wrote:
Yahoo Message Number: 83138 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83138)
John,
As Rich and others say we have all run our propane system on the road with no problems. If it were to blow out the thermocouple will sense no flame and shut off the propane.
However, to save propane I rewired my electric box to allow the Norcold to get power from the Inverter side of the box (modified sign wave inverter). see link below...
http://autos.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Country-Coach-Owners/message/74463 (http://autos.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Country-Coach-Owners/message/74463)
So now I can run my Norcold with the inverter while on the road but I need to remember to switch it to propane if I drycamp.
Yahoo Message Number: 83139 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83139)
Sorry I didn't sign..
John
05 Inspire #51399
Yahoo Message Number: 83143 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83143)
Those thinking of doing something with their Norcold or Dometic refrigerators owe it to yourself to at least consider a residential fridge. I've finally put my experience with this conversion on the web for others to have a little more info on this subject. You can find it here;
http://www.moenracing.com/samsung/ (http://www.moenracing.com/samsung/)
I'd be happy to answer any questions I can.
Barney
07 Inspire 52059
Yahoo Message Number: 83144 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83144)
I have a Demetic NDR 1492 with some kind of failure. Our unit got hot enough to cause the inspection access panel in the frige compartment to droop (about 1" x 3"), though the paint did not blister. I was driving with the fridge on propane when this problem happened. We sent pictures of our coach and fridge to Dometic and they were not able to suggest a cause. We have an appointment to get this fridge issue corrected, either through repair or replacement.
I'd be interested to know about potential dangers when running on shore power. When using propane, it seems there would be an open flame that could start a fire if the unit fails. I would assume a damaged absorption coil or vent connection would still be a problem when running on 120 power. What might the fire possibility/concern be when running on shore power?
Paul Onerheim
2004 Magna #6301
Yahoo Message Number: 83150 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83150)
Barney - Thanks for publishing this. It's a viable option that we need specific details about. Hopefully more information is to follow.
Yahoo Message Number: 83152 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83152)
Barney, If I had someone install the frig for me, do you have any idea what it would cost? Thanks, Jhon 2003 Allure 30951 Tel 231 313 7582
Yahoo Message Number: 83158 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83158)
Scott, if you are correct about this lack of a standard thermocouple in Norcolds, I wonder if this is part of the problems.
Rich 2002 Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 83160 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83160)
Barney,
Thanks for the photo's. I have ordered the same unit and would like to leave the drawers in place (05 Inspire) but my DW is height challenged and I'm wondering how difficult it might be to reach the top shelf? Any thoughts?
John
05 Inspire #51399
10 Ford Escape
Yahoo Message Number: 83161 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83161)
Hi John,
I had the same concern before making the transition and traded emails with a gal that was 5' tall. She said if she needed something from the top shelf she would ask her husband's help. She had no problems at all with the height. It is a little high though. I have no problems at 5' 11".
We recently took our first trip with the Samsung. It was only five days and we didn't even use the top shelf. You have to remember that the Samsung is about 50% larger than what you have! There is a large shelf in the bottom of each door that will hold a gallon jug with room left over for a couple of smaller things. Then there are two more shelves above this in each door. The extra room is incredible.
I suppose you could carry a small step stool that would help out if necessary.
Hope this helps,
Barney
07 Inspire 52059
Yahoo Message Number: 83162 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83162)
Hi John,
I couldn't even venture a guess. I have heard some war stories where the installer would not install the customers provided fridge. Only the installers provided fridge at twice the cost! Then, if you need or want to make changes to the cabinetry the costs could go up quickly.
All I can suggest is making some calls and see what you come up with. I would think any business that works on large RV's could do the work for you. It's not that difficult, just a little time consuming.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Barney
07 Inspire 52059
Yahoo Message Number: 83163 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83163)
May I add our BIG Amen!!
We're a year in and our only complaint is I didn't have the good sense to order the coach out this way.
Now I only worry about the guy next door blowing and/or burning up at night.
Jim 07 Allure #31570
Yahoo Message Number: 83164 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83164)
You will have several items:
The actual cost of the refer varies by model and shopping skill $1000 to $2000 next is cabinet work $500 to ???
Next is inverter, you may want to change to a pure sine wave model ~$2000 Then if you dry camp a lot you may need more batteries ???
Bob Wexler
SOB
Yahoo Message Number: 83166 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83166)
According to Bob and Jim at OMC you don't need a pure sine wave unit for the Samsung. I believe they Charge around $3900 for the installation complete including the Fridge. Its up to you if you need more batteries and a larger inverter-charger. I am choosing to have my Norcold up dated with the Amish unit.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731
Yahoo Message Number: 83168 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83168)
Rich - I know from dismantling mine after the melt down. It's important to distinguish our frig burners from those using a pilot. Residential gas burners (for heating systems) have what is called a 100% safety pilot. In other words a small pilot flame will burn constantly and heat a thermocouple. The BASO unit monitors this flame and shuts down the main gas feed if the pilot goes out. The idea is to prevent gas from entering the living space should the burner come on without the pilot flame. The BASO 100% safety pilot was a completely separate system comprised of a thermocouple, gas solenoid valve and BASO module. As for failures, the thermocouples would rust out after many years of being in the pilot flame. This failure would automatically open the contacts in the BASO and prevent gas flow.
The Norcold control board handles this differently since the pilot has been replaced with an electronic ignition device. Unlike the thermocouple BASO, electronics have been used to manage the burner. And when these electronic components fail what happens. You'll have to forgive me for being a bit distrustful about Norcold's design, quality, safety and reliability. The solenoid gas valve in that refrigerator is another area of concern. What happens if it should stick open and/or leak? This condition could be sensed by the control board but if the valve is stuck open the flame will continue to burn with no way to extinguish it. An error code could be issued but what if you're not home? Who or what puts out the flame?
I'm going to defer to what's been used in residential and commercial gas burner systems for many years with a proven reliability and safety record. If someone is going to change this, I'd like to know why. Me thinks companies like Norcold look for ways to cheapen their products. And the people that do this are out of touch with the reality we as customers eventually deal with. This is just my opinion. I don't recall any issues with the gas burners other than the melted plastic we've heard about. So this whole discussion of gas burner control may be irrelevant. Maybe they are safe, maybe not. Maybe, maybe and maybe. I'm simply saying the controls and safety system don't meet my requirements. When it comes to safety I'm a fussy customer. Real fussy. What I'd like to see is a duplicity of function with gas shut off. A second valve perhaps with an ongoing self test and a gas detector would be a good place to start.
The BASO is just an example of what safety measures had been taken to avoid fires and gas explosions. It's track record is beyond reproach. Many years back (before the 100% safety pilot) accidents happened and this was a call to attention. Someone solved the problem. As a kid our kitchen stove and oven had pilots. Sometimes they would go out and you'd smell the gas. That was a really old stove.
Yahoo Message Number: 83169 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83169)
Another question I have. How did you handle the ventilation? The Norcold flange seals the interior of the bus from outside air which circulates in through the side vent and out the top vent. If these vents remain in use, then something needs to be done around the perimeter of the frig to seal it. If the vents are closed off then the frig dumps the condenser heat into the living space. I'm also wondering how really cold weather would affect, if at all, the residential frig. Just curious how residential conversions handle all this.
Yahoo Message Number: 83172 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83172)
We had OMC install the 23 cf Samsung in our Intrigue. The fit is very snug. They did close off some of the ventilation from outside, but the fridge does not produce any noticeable heat in the coachl We have used the coach in cold weather and did not have any problems.
S. Brandt, '06 Intrigue, 11964
Yahoo Message Number: 83175 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83175)
Our Samsung 197 presented the same problem of being installed 14" above the floor .
The solution was a folding 2 step stool that we purchased from Camping World.
It stores neatly between the toilet and wall when not in use and is really needed only
to reach the top shelf by my DW.
Charlie
08 Inspire 53093
Yahoo Message Number: 83178 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83178)
Switched to Samsung about 2 months ago. Best thing I have done to the coach yet. The hardest part for me was getting the old Norcold out. Took about a day to get the new Samsung in.
Tom Coomes
2005 Inspire 51177
Yahoo Message Number: 83179 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83179)
OK, so what does DW stand for? Sorry this is not related to Country Coach topics. John 2003 Allure 30951
Yahoo Message Number: 83181 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83181)
dear wife
Ilene 2004 Inspire 51071
Yahoo Message Number: 83182 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83182)
Dear Wife
Yahoo Message Number: 83184 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83184)
I will leave the D to your imagination, but W is for Wife.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 83185 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83185)
Thanks for the information.
At 12:20 AM 10/11/2012, you wrote:
Yahoo Message Number: 83189 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83189)
Hi Scott,
I added a few pictures with explanations. These might answer some of your questions.
http://www.moenracing.com/samsung/ (http://www.moenracing.com/samsung/)
Barney
07 Inspire 52059
Yahoo Message Number: 83192 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83192)
I would never have a norcold from what I have read on this group. what I was driving at is it at least a dometics have a standard thermocouple.
Rich 2002 Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 83197 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83197)
Scott,
In our installation, the outside vent was sealed off but the roof vent was left open.
As the condenser fan in the lower rear of the unit generates heat, the heat rises up between the space between the ref and the outside wall and out the roof vent.
Replacement air is drawn in from the coach in the internal space between the lower ref mechanism and it's floor and drawing air thru an opening in the lower front edge below the freezer bin door.
This seems to work fine since there is plenty of air leakage around the coach to keep the flow going.
Charlie
08 Inspire 52093
Yahoo Message Number: 83198 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83198)
DW= Dear Wife
Yahoo Message Number: 83200 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83200)
Charlie - Thanks. I have another question. Our bus is pretty tight as far as air leaks go. We run our exhaust fan in the kitchen to remove fumes. Any concerns about pulling air through the top vent down behind the frig and into the living space? Just curious.
At 01:01 PM 10/11/2012, you wrote:
Yahoo Message Number: 83205 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83205)
(http://cid:2FCF8ACADE5A45FEA0CACAC191CEF8C4@JimWS) (https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=6766e29512046bcb&page=play&resid=6766E29512046BCB!115&parid=6766E29512046BCB!114&type=1&Bsrc=Photomail&Bpub=SDX.Photos&authkey=!AB9raO5mjTBf4ys)
Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Samsung 18cu ft atten; Barney (https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=6766e29512046bcb&page=browse&resid=6766E29512046BCB!114&type=5&authkey=!AB9raO5mjTBf4ys&Bsrc=Photomail&Bpub=SDX.Photos)
VIEW SLIDE SHOW (https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=6766e29512046bcb&page=play&resid=6766E29512046BCB!114&type=5&authkey=!AB9raO5mjTBf4ys&Bsrc=Photomail&Bpub=SDX.Photos) DOWNLOAD ALL (https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=6766e29512046bcb&page=downloadphotos&resid=6766E29512046BCB!114&type=5&Bsrc=Photomail&Bpub=SDX.Photos&authkey=!AB9raO5mjTBf4ys)
This album has 1 photo and will be available on SkyDrive until 1/9/2013.
Just wanted to pass along that I've found a recycler for the 1200 cooling units, I think getting them to the right people after we've pulled them out is better then putting them to the landfill.....
-Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 83211 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83211)
Scott,
No, not really, replacement air for the exhaust fan has to find its way into the coach anyway.
When running the exhaust fan it would seem wise to open a window to get good circulation.
Drawing air down from the roof vent and under the coach should be no problem.
Actually the amount of heat generated by this ref is quite small about 120 watts and it has typically around a 50% duty cycle so that should not be a heat load issue.
Charlie
08 Inspire 52093
Yahoo Message Number: 83212 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83212)
John
I had the same experience. I could get a refrigerator for half the price the shop's were quoting but they would not allow me to have the refrigerator drop shipped to their shop.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348
Yahoo Message Number: 83217 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/83217)
Then you should find a better shop.
I can get the samsung RF197ACRS for our customers for $1400 or cheaper. The or cheaper is because it's all about the sales, Samsung allows/gives the smaller Appliance dealers the price match ability. So the day I order from my supplier we search the "local"? big box stores (has to be a local competitor that is within your area) and the cheapest price is what will be matched. A copy of the sales add goes with the invoice back to samsung and the dealer gets reimbursed the difference - set mark-up. So I've been buying these refers when the price is best, I can still make a couple bucks, my customer gets a good price & I get the labor to install.
But I always suggest to my customers to go see if you can find a better deal, if so, here's my card, have if delivered here, let me know and I'll see you then.
FYI - extended warranty on the Samsung.....
Note from my supplier....
We have been told by the warranty company, Warrentech, that they will not honor an extended warranty for a product that has been installed into a motor coach or a vessel. The warranty is only valid when installed in a residence.
Jim Lewis
Infinity Coach
Sumner, Wa
Yahoo Message Number: 87216 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/87216)
Just a quick followup to bring this to closure.....
I removed the NDR1292 and replaced the cooling unit using an Amish cooling unit. I am glad I decided to do the job myself. The removal gave me a chance to seriously look at what failed on the old cooling unit and what improvements I could make.
The refrigerator came out rather easy. Although heavy, help was available to remove doors and lay the unit face down on some supports I had fabricated. I quickly discoverd the charred backing material that got too hot under and near the top of the heat stack. The foil coated backing material Dometic uses is nothing but some kind of paper board about the thickness of poster board. It had burned through and about
1-2" into the foam material. That was the first improvement....a better
heat shield.
We removed the old cooling unit and I examined it for the failure point and it was in the goiler area at a failed weld joint. It was very evident from all the yellow staining and power from the leak. Again the unit is 12 years old, so did not expect it to last forever.
Ice maker line was next improvement. Replaced the failed plastic tubing with copper tube and replaced water control valve.
Control board was next. Replaced it with a Dinosaur control board.
No water damage to wood ecking....yet. Insatlled a sheet of laminate material to the wooden deck of the refrigerator cabinet and sealed with chaulking to protect wood from any future leaks.
Used some additional thermal mastic to ensure the cooling line and plates were completely encased for best possible thermal conduction.
Now I have ice again and the wife's ice cream stays hard.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511