Yahoo Message Number: 90194 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90194)
We ended up spending almost two months at Country Coach getting the damage from the tow truck operator repaired, as well as getting the engine coolant lines replaced, the chassis renovated, and the front door cover replaced. Zack was our technician for most of the work, and he did a super job for us. We have a 100% confidence in him as a technician, just as we did with Brad last year. On arrival, we discovered our water pump was on it's last leg, and since we dry-camped at the factory (they have several new 50-Amp pedestals on the back of the lot), Zack got a new high-flow pump installed the first day. We had thrown an A/C belt on the way, and with a frozen A/C compressor, that had to be replaced and the system purged. With Zack's persistence, it all got done, and the system has been working well all the way back home. Eric handled the chassis work (BTW, his wife operates a cafe on 6th street in Junction City where she serves great food at a great price!). Parts had to be ordered from Gillig, and new shocks were needed on the rear--front shocks were OK, but needed new bushings, and Eric did a wheel alignment. The coach rides like new! If you have an older coach, you owe it to yourself and your coach to have Eric check it out--what a huge difference! Before I had to "row" the steering wheel constantly on the road--now it is almost rock steady. The repairs on the front looks great--We are very happy with the work.
While I'm sure other shops are capable of doing good work, we feel that supporting Ron Lee in his vision to get Country Coach back into production is important to all CC owners, and I highly recommend you take trip up to his shop if you need work done on your Country Coach.
Per Korslund
95 Affinity 5259
Yahoo Message Number: 90205 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90205)
Always glad to hear about a satisfied customer. I also think your 1995 Affinity comes from a much different time and work space than say my 2006 Allure. No one wants to see an American business go belly up. As a market, customers get exactly the products they deserve. My theory is smarter customers in touch will ALL ASPECTS of the products they purchase means better products. In other words, those that meet or exceed expectations. It's simple really. Today's customers are also tomorrow's customers. CC had somehow lost touch with reality. I could (as an owner of one of their products) go on about all the issues. And I've tried to do that in constructive ways by chronicling my experiences in detail. Time will tell whether anyone is really listening. Or whether the exercise returns us to business as usual. That being out of touch customers and businesses that exploit the ignorance.
Customer networking is HUGE too. As a customer base I think it's one of our most powerful tools. My sympathies go out to you for becoming another victim of incompetence. I hope those responsible for the damage have at least paid the bill. Normal and customary wear and tear is expected so we try to find knowledgeable service that's cost effective for all parties involved. And we, as customers, expect to pay those bills. Here's to better visions and best wishes to those taking us to new horizons. As for CC, they've got a lot of catching up to do. At least in my book, anyway. I'll move through my ownership with guarded optimism.
Best - Scott
2006 Allure 430 40' #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html (http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html)
Yahoo Message Number: 90208 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90208)
You have to realize that the current Country Coach corporation is a totally different outfit than the one that went bankrupt in 2010. Ron Lee was not involved with Country Coach in the last several years leading up to the bankruptcy. What he did was to buy up the intellectual property, the main buildings and the fiberglass forms in the bankruptcy. The economy had a lot to do with Country Coach going bankrupt, and I'm sure the Veranda coaches with a large committment of engineering and poor customer response had a lot to do with it also. Ron Lee is working on financing to get production started, which will benefit all of us, and in the meantime is keeping a crew going with service and consignment sales. There were questionable decisions made by Country Coach, such as the cheaper fiberglass that checks, ruining the paint job, cheaper radiators that fail, dry PTOs that fail, none of which were made by the folks running the current Country Coach. A lot more attention was put into constructing our coach than the later mass-produced ones, but that is the way it is.
Per
95 Affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 90212 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90212)
Hi Per,
In general I agree with your comments but one. Why would CC starting again "will benefit all of us"? I see absolutely no benefit unless they can address the wrongs of the past. Unless you are suggesting we forget about that and move on. I for one will never forget it but I have moved on which means I will never have anything to do with anything associated with the Lee's, Howard's or a new CC.
Just my two cents ...
Rick
2004 CC Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90213 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90213)
Why would you expect the current Country Coach corporation to address the "wrongs of the past", when they had nothing to do with the decisions made in the past? As far as benefits, how about having a central place that can look up the parts for your coach? How about if you damage the fiberglass on your coach, and you need the original molds? If Ron Lee does not succeed, what do you think are going to happen to those molds? When telling a motorhome salesman I had a Country Coach, he made the statement that I would never be able to get a front cap if I needed one since CC was bankrupt. He was surprised when I told him the molds were available. How do you think the value of your coach will be impacted when a potential buyer hears that statement from someone? Some believe new Country Coaches will increase the value of older ones--may or may not happen, but it shouldn't hurt! I will not be able to afford a new CC coach, but I may be able to get a good deal from someone who can buy a new one. Setting up production will require a lot more technicians, and I were Ron, I would look for prior CC employees, which would concentrate more CC expertise in one place which would help anyone needing service on their coaches. I am sorry you have apparently had many issues with your coach, I have had issues as well, but for the most part they are age-related. I am not sure when Ron Lee left the original Country Coach corporation, but I know he left a long time before they went bankrupt. I cannot see how him restarting Country Coach can be anything but a benefit to Country Coach owners.
Per
95 Affinty 5259
Yahoo Message Number: 90214 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90214)
Couldn't disagree with you more. The Lee's are the ones that turned over the management of CC to the Howards (many of us on this board questioned that decision when it happened). As for needing caps, etc.; doesn't matter. Most of us have worked around not having CC around. I do agree that not having CC around has hurt the value of our coaches. Debatable as to whether a new CC would help the value of the older CCs.
It really all doesn't matter now and I don't want to start an email war over this. I just kindly disagree with a new CC being much benefit to us and I don't forgive anyone when I have been screwed over. I do support the business's that supported CC, such as, Carrier & Sons (who got hurt by CC as well as many other businesses when CC went bankrupt).
Just a difference of opinion that is all.
Rick,
2004 Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90215 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90215)
Makes me wonder.
Will the new CC be a modern wonder or one of those turds I see going down the road?
Lee (leozbrowski@... (leozbrowski@...)) 2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153
CAT C-13
Yahoo Message Number: 90216 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90216)
I for one have great faith in what I have seen first-hand of the current management and its desire to continue the Country Coach line. Their commitment to top-of-the-line customer service goes a long way towards re-emerging.
Jim Hill
2008 Tribute 260
81138
Yahoo Message Number: 90217 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90217)
Would it make you feel better if I told you Ron Lee feels he was screwed over by the previous CC? Could be a reason he wants to make a go at it.
Neverteless, Ron has a tight group of well-qualified technicians who do a great job working on our coaches, and I insist putting more people to work in the local area is a good thing.
Per
Yahoo Message Number: 90218 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90218)
Sadly CC has soured many of what would have been loyal customers.
It's a bit tough to just forget about the $850K CC stole from those in need of paint repairs. And I don't much care for the deceit and deception associated with their business model either. The finest motor coaches in the world. What kind of nonsense is this. If anyone has any doubts about the weirdness, just take a look at the Veranda. What are they thinking about?? The new CC completely disconnected with the old business too. A mistake in my opinion and a lost opportunity to mend some fences and start anew. Ask those that paid for CC extended warranties how they feel. As for us, going back I don't think I would select different bus. We like the layout and general comfort of the one we have. I'd just be a whole lot smarter about purchasing it and attending to the design flaws. So the challenges are to figure out ways to keep this one on the road without going broke in the process. And then there is that quality of life aspect of coasting to the side of the road.
I contacted the new CC organization about getting some repairs done twice. Never got a response. As for getting the attention of businesses and motivating them towards quality and good service, we all need to send a clear message that anything less just isn't going to be profitable. In many ways the former CC is like Norcold. Charge like hell, layer on the BS, don't answer the phone, forget about support, issue band aids and provide substandard parts/design in what they believe won't get noticed. And it's caught up to both of them in a BIG way. Ticked off customers go a long way and can be very expensive. A fellow I respect that well understands this is Bob Tiffen. Service and support are everything.
Pines RV Refrigeration is another place that stays in touch with their customers. When I had issues they took care of everything and made the situation right. Class act all the way. So there are good businesses out there. Whether the new version of CC is going to be one of them remains to be seen.
Best - Scott
2006 Allure 430 40' #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html (http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html)
Yahoo Message Number: 90219 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90219)
No one here wants to see CC's second attempt go bad. No one is against that business moving forward either. And as far as my issues go, just read the subject lines that come onto this newsgroup daily. And know that I'm certainly not the only one. They read like a casualty list.
And yes I've been outspoken about it. But I've also worked really hard to document issues and problems constructively to help others avoid the problems I got tangled up with. Slide leaks come to mind, for example.
The goal is to save money and maintain trouble free traveling not to demonize a business venture. But one begets the other. If the new version of CC wants to include that name for the perks it offers like reputation (questionable) and brand name awareness then they certainly are going to feel the ills of the past to some extent. And the company is about as transparent as a cement bunker. Doesn't bode well in my book for inspiring comfort and confidence in a customer base. That said, I certainly hope they succeed and hit the long ball. As for replacement parts, money is the best solution to that problem. If it's there, you'll see the parts.
My angle is on the design aspects. We need better solutions, quality parts and easier maintenance for starters. $6K radiator replacements on vehicles with less than 20k miles is an outrage!! And I understand that mistakes are made. But don't stick an innocent customer with a horrific bill. In so many cases you don't really fix anything but just delay the next repair. Some folks go in and get one thing fixed and two more broken. I think we can all do much better.
And the engine for moving in that direction is an educated customer base.
Best - Scott
2006 Allure 430 40' #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html (http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html)
Yahoo Message Number: 90221 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90221)
Do you believe anyone buying a part of a bankrupt business would honor warrany claims or agree to correct the mistakes of a previous adminitration? So why do you expect Ron Lee to do that? Believe me, I have seen the checking on some of the coaches in the repair shop, and it is bad--one of the technicians related CC saved about $300 per coach by buying cheaper fiberglass.
As far as coasting to the side of the road, it has happened to us twice--two years ago due to a failed hydraulic hose, this year due to a corroded fuse terminal carrying power to the ECM. Neither of which I can blame on CC. As far as getting repairs done on your coach, I can't imagine Doug Beaudry turning work away, unless you expected the work done for free.
I talked to Ron Lee both times we were there--he is very approachable, and willing to listen to advise. He is working on financing to get production started--he even has his estate for sale to raise capital.
I can certainly understand the frustrations of owners who got left out in the cold with the bankruptcy, but it happened to owners of Safaris, Beavers, Holiday Ramblers, Monaco etc.
I, for one, will support Ron Lee, and the service and reception we have received at his operation will have us going back. Give them a try--they will do good work for you, but they just don't have the resoources to do work without compensation.
Per
Yahoo Message Number: 90228 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90228)
No one said anything about free work. Not exactly sure how that was distilled from my posts. And I also said nothing about boycotting the CC startup venture. But someone needs to show up at the table and make a few points clear. My focus remains on the ownership, operator, petty repairs and routine maintenance side. It needs to be improved plain and simple. We've got a laundry list of work items that need to be done and Oregon is on our list of stopping places to address some of it. You can rest assured I'll chronicle every detail of our experiences with service/repair facilities up there. If the experience is positive (like yours) I will gladly convey that to anyone/everyone that's interested.
And I hope that's the case.
Specifically I sent an email (twice) to CC asking about repairing this: http://muniac.smugmug.com/Maintenance/Bus-Repairs/i-WmZ5Ftr/0/M/IMG_3487-M.jpg (http://muniac.smugmug.com/Maintenance/Bus-Repairs/i-WmZ5Ftr/0/M/IMG_3487-M.jpg) Nothing came back. But it didn't go away so next time my communication will be in person. We need to plan our travels, stays, budget and downtime. To that end we try to get on these things in advance which sometimes runs out a year. I also query a potential business before engaging them. How phones are answered and who you can speak with are important signals (to me anyway) about what's coming. A business that responds to its customers at all levels is a requirement for me. And I'm not kicking tires, as I have some legitimate service items that need attention. Today's inquiries are also tomorrow's customers. Referrals and recommendations are also the best form of advertising. Your glowing review is encouraging and hopefully we hear more from other customers.
We're not splitting the atom on this one either. Pretty simple stuff, really.
Like all other businesses the new CC will be shaped by its customers and their experiences. Perhaps there's an opportunity for positive change.
In other words, let's get it right this time. How much customers know about design, materials, quality, service and price point will be some of the key factors. Staying in touch with what went wrong is also equally important. It would also be HUGE to somehow encourage builders of expensive living quarters on wheels to stand behind their products.
That simply means placing the responsibility for financial damages with those causing them. In short, stand behind your products and create a good reputation with your customer base. Other businesses do this everyday as a matter or routine. Sure this costs money upfront but returns much more down the road. It's called making a smart investment in your customer base as opposed to the quick splash and dash buck.
Many will remember this getting so bad in the auto industry lemon laws were passed to help protect customers from ridiculous problems.
As for old warranties that have become a casualty of bankruptcy , I certainly never suggested they be honored by CC reincarnated. But throwing some of the Howard Bus owners a little something certainly wouldn't hurt. Maybe a small discount on repairs, perhaps. There are lots of ways to advertise a new business and some of the best are to help those customers (potential or defacto) that are going to bring money into your business.
I'm very familiar with those businesses that run by a "maximize" profit model. These need to be contrasted against those businesses who optimize profits over a career. Two very different business models.
And what sense can be made from saving $300 on materials that results in $10-15K paint jobs? Well that depends on which side of the cash register you're standing on. A bad legacy has been left behind with the victims of this CC boondoggle which is only the tip of the iceberg. It isn't likely to just "go away" anytime soon. So the operative question is how best is this handled. Certainly not by total abandonment.
A gentleman spoke eloquently about us being left to our own devices and resources. A good point and accurate assessment of exactly how it all stands IMHO. Revisiting the old fashioned concept of community/sharing would seem a plausible first step in the survival game. Like many here, I'm just an owner/operator trying to find the best and most cost effective ways for safe reliable travel and enjoyable times along the way. To that end I support all contributory resources and welcome innovations, opinions, advice, help, suggestions, recommendations, etc.
Luckily we haven't come coasting to the side of the road yet. I'm hoping proactive maintenance has helped that along. Safe travels to one and all. Oh Yes, my last words on this thread. Not much more to be said here.
Best - Scott
2006 Allure 430 40' #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html (http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html)
Yahoo Message Number: 90231 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90231)
I am new to CC so I certainly don't have the previous experience with them some of you folks have. I certainly hope this new venture succeeds, if only for the selfish reason that it may help maintain some value for the coach we have if/when it needs to be sold.
This is our third class A and our second DP. From several years of moderating a busy RV forum and from my own ownership experiences, I believe all brands have their flaws and all manufacturers look for ways to reduce costs even when it might not be the best deal for the end user. Winnebago used Filon for several model years and it caused problems with many customers stuck with the expense of a fix if after warranty. They also had a serious problem with rusting of the windshield frame due to poor design (IMO) but never admitted having a problem. I've know Newmar customers with goofy issues with their luxury line.
The Allure we now have is certainly very nice, seems sturdily built with superior materials. It is not perfect and I suspect things will break along the way. I have learned that any of us who own a motorhome is probably slightly insane since they are all money pits and can drive you bonkers at times. Kind of a love-hate thing on wheels.
As far as fiberglass checking, I had that issue in spades on my 2002 Journey. Because of that, I checked the skin on the Allure very closely before purchase and have only since found one small defect in the glass at the edge of one slide room. I was hoping that if there was going to be defects in the fiberglass, they would have shown up in 2007 before I bought it 6 years later. Crossing my fingers now that I read of that in other CC's.
Gary
'07 Allure 470 #31578
Yahoo Message Number: 90234 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90234)
Regarding Fiberglass problems, were there ANY coaches in the under 1Million market that escaped the Fiberglass Paint problems 2007-2010.? It seems most brands were compromised.
OJinOK
06 Affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 90235 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90235)
Hmmm .... I debated as to whether to respond to all this or not. Here goes:
I'm a program manager by trade and have worked in many industries but mostly Aerospace & Defense. I was responsible for programs in the millions of dollars. That means I receive the glory when we did well and I took the hits when we did not do well. I had to rely on hundreds of people to do there job correctly and I had to rely on my senior technical engineer for technical advice; and, I was responsible for the decisions I ultimately made based on the advise I received.
My point is: the issues with my coach happened under the Lee management team when I bought this coach new in Nov. 2003. The Lees (team) made the decision to use the inferior fiberglass. The decision was made in 2002 and the Allure coaches made from 2002 to 2007-2008 were made with the inferior fiberglass. Damon Rapozo has the specifics on which coaches were made with the inferior fiberglass. Therefore, just like a coach of sports team, the Lees take the hit for this decision regardless of whether they actually owned the company when the sh*t hit the fan. Howards were just the fall guys for the Lee's (team) decision. As Scott has alluded to some of the poor engineering, if the Lees and their technical team had done due diligence they would have found that the fiberglass was only good up to 120 degrees f. (surface temperature). This was the contention of Dow Corning when they were defending themselves in the law suit that their specs stated the fibeglass was only good up to 120 degrees surface temperature. Dow Corning contended that the Mfg ignored or did not follow their published specs.
Now the Howards made the problem worse by not stopping the mfg of the coaches when they knew about the issues with the inferior fiberglass. I don't know how many coaches they built after they knew about the problem but it was a lot. The Howards also decided the use the lawsuit money for other purposes when they settled the lawsuit with Dow Corning. This was just before they shut down CC. So, the folks like myself who had been on a list for years waiting on the outcome of the lawsuit and waiting on CC promise to take care of us, with the micro-checking problem, got screwed.
To summarize, Mr Lee is ingenious to me. He was part of the problem; he conveniently go out from those problems because the company was sold to the Riley Group. How convenient for him to say, it was not his fault and not his problem. If you follow this logic through, if the Lees had kept ownership of CC, would they have handled the mico-checking and lawsuit any better than the Howards did? That is the hundred dollar question and it just depends on how you feel about the Lees. I personally don't think the Lees would have handled the problems differently due to the amount of money involved. It would have cost CC millions of dollars to fix all the coaches with the micro-checking problems.
Therefore my feelings for never wanting to have anything to do with CC, the Lees or the Howards ever again. Besides, OMC is not the only good shop in Junction City. Carrier and Sons is just as good and cheaper for regular maintenance items. They also use ex-employees of CC. I feel it is much important to support the small business that supported CC through all those years and who got burned by CC when CC was not be able to pay all their bills.
I'm not buying that Ron was a victim and that he really is the good guy in all this. My two cents and I'm sticking with it ... (https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fcdn.webmail.aol.com%2Fresources%2Fcore%2Fimages%2Fcool.png&t=1415643630&sig=PlMVdVE4g3IeJRYBuLV08A--~B)
Rick Barnette,
2004 CC Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90236 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90236)
Yes there were motorhomes that did not use the inferior grade of fiberglass. According to information I received from Damon Rapozo, only the CC Allures and Tributes were made with the inferior fiberglass. The higher end CC models (Intrigue Magmas, etc), used the better grade of fiberglass. Damon can actually tell you the exact serial number on the Allures that the inferior fiberglass was used. I have the information in my archives and I can look it up if someone really wants to know.
Also, your model years are off at bit, this really affect model years late 1990s to around 2008. I don't know specific years for each of the Mfgs.
I don't believe Foretravel or Dynamax used the inferior fiberglass but a knowledgeable Foretravel or Dynamax person can better answer that question. The Foretravel or Dynamax would be my choice for a motorhome if I were in the market for one.
Rick,
2004 Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90237 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90237)
I appreciate and thank Rick Barnette for his lucid and reasonable summary. It seems based on the historic timeline and who was in charge at the time.
It makes me wonder why many seem to hanker for the good old days before the BC; and bet it mostly has to do with the owner wine and dine gravy train in the 'good olde days.'
My only addition to Rick's content is that we shouldn't forget to support the many great CC techs spread around the US.
Thankfully, those of us not up the road from Western Oregon don't have to go all that way for tip-top support.
Lee (leozbrowski@... (leozbrowski@...)) 2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153
CAT C-13
Yahoo Message Number: 90238 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90238)
I don't suppose it would hurt to let the new if incarnation of CC prove itself before consigning it to the scrap heap.
Tim Gerrity
2002 Magna 40' Interlude
2011 Ford Escape
Yahoo Message Number: 90240 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90240)
Thank you for the excellent information, everybody here in this chain. I wonder if 06 Inspires specifically should be added to that list since we have checking also. Thank you.
Mike Frederick
06 Inspire 51784
Yahoo Message Number: 90241 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90241)
Correction on a couple of statements I made in my post. I went back in my archives and found the information on which CC models were made with the inferior fiberglass. The following is per Damon Rapozo in an email he sent me in 2009:
Allures from 2004 through 2007, up to #31564 Inspires from inception to 51995
Correction to my statement that the Tributes were made with the inferior fiberglass; it was the Inspires that were also made with the inferior fiberglass.
Rick
Yahoo Message Number: 90242 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90242)
Rick - Glad you responded. And thanks for bringing in more details. As for engineering details, seems a bit odd to me that something subjected to direct sunlight and painted a dark color would be used with a high temperature limit of 120F. It's these ill conceived engineering decisions that we need to turn around as customers.
Best - Scott
2006 Allure 430 40' #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html (http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html)
Yahoo Message Number: 90244 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90244)
Mrs Brandt:
The following is information I just took off the internet:
"In 1996, National RV Holdings bought Country Coach, but the company suffered as its new parent company lost value amid declining RV demand. Country Coach was bought in 2007 by a private investment consortium that included founder Bob Lee, and CEO Jay Howard led a 50 percent downsizing of the company. A further decline in RV sales--33 percent nationally in 2008--presented another significant challenge to Oregon's motorcoach industry, which is sensitive to both the price of fuel and to consumer credit. Country Coach reorganized under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and laid off more than 450 workers. In April 2009, the company reopened with a staff of about 100 employees."
You are correct in that I am painting a broad brush when it comes to Ron. I don't know how actively involved he was. I do know Bob Lee was involved with CC in 2004 because I had a meeting with him at Camp CC when I was there having warranty work done. I got the impression he was running things back them because everyone was deferring to him but I don't remember the exact position he held back them.
Your also correct that National made have made the decision and not the Lees. I would have to check with Damon Rapozo and I believe he could answer that question.
My whole point was to my response, is I didn't want to anything to do with any of them regardless of the extent they had in running the business.
As for my running programs, you can't even compare mfg motorhomes to gov't contracts. Whole 'nother ball game and yes we had very strict guidelines in the products we built. Yes we had difficulties because all the stuff we built was state of the art never done before. Yes we made good on issues we had with all products. We were dealing with the gov't and they are difficult to deal with. Motorhome mfg have no gov't oversite and can build their products anyway they want. If my programs built products like the motorhome mfg did and do; I would have had a very short career.
Rick,
CC Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90245 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90245)
Richard, thanks for this info on serial #'s. At #31578, looks like I got lucky and hopefully will not have that problem. I had much checking on my 2002 Winnebago and did have a nice full body paint job done in about 2010 to the tune of $13,500. I used a lot of white in the new color scheme to avoid dark colors. In spite of the fact that the shop used a lot of high fill primer, good paint, and 4 coats of clear, the checking started to reappear by the time I traded the rig in April. I got estimates from three shops (including Precision in Bremen, IN) and none of them would guarentee the new paint would solve the problem...only mask it.
My Allure looks really good....prior owner took good care of the paint. I would be really disappointed to see fiberglass checking appear on the coach....Deja Vu.
Gary
'07 Allure #31578
Yahoo Message Number: 90246 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90246)
Oh yeah...the good ole days of cost plus contracts, 10K wrenches, and 40K toilets.
Max
98 Affinity #5487
Yahoo Message Number: 90247 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90247)
Hi Gary,
Good luck to you on your new paint job. Hopefully with the lighter colors you will not have the micro checking problem re-occur..
I too have been researching on the best way to approach the issues with my coach. I have the Black Tie edition of the Allure meaning I have a lot of black in my color scheme. The micro checking is primarily in all the black areas of my coach.
I have talked to Straight Line in Junction City and they gave me a rough quote of $30,000 to re-fiberglass the sides of my coach and re-paint with a light color scheme. They too could not guaranty the problem would not re-occur. Considering the rough market value of my coach is $85,000; not sure I want to do this. I don't thing my coach would be worth $115,000 after performing all the rework. Still pondering if I really want to do this ....
Rick
2004 Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90248 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90248)
Hi Rick.....
I too have the Allure Black Tie edition. 34' 2004 # 31094 with 44,000 miles. I also have the checking on the black portion and got a bid close to yours here in Southern California. I made the decision to just go and play............I will continue to do the necessary and preventative maintenance as to make the journey as comfortable as possible. The paint doesn't look all that bad after I do a real nice wax job. Looks pretty good from a far. Its just up close it makes you feel bad.
The guys at Colton Truck in Colton Ca. do me a real good job on catching things before they happen. She's running pretty good and I'm not going to concern myself with the paint job right now. I'm 62 years young and have a lot of things to see and do and parts and thing to maintain to be concerned with the paint . Besides! Its a 2004!
Well! Good Luck on you decision. I'm going to enjoy my rig...... She's running great.............( so far)
Scott 2004 Allure, # 31094 with 44,000 miles and counting
Yahoo Message Number: 90250 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90250)
Hi Scott,
I will probably do like you have done; really can't justify the $30k to make it look pretty. I will probably just have the front end of the coach re-done because the 3M film has blistered very badly and the front cap is pretty "sunburned" too. I was told that they would have to sand the 3M film off because it is such in bad shape but someone on this board stated that should not have to be done. I will find out more when I visit Straight Line later this month.
Save travels,
Rick
Yahoo Message Number: 90252 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90252)
I am curious about the 3M film. I don't like the stuff but I have it on this Allure. Mine is starting to look kind of cloudy.....barely but cloudy nevertheless. Should I consider having it removed while it is still in decent shape? I am told if it is removed properly, the paint under it will be in good shape.
I just installed Summit Armor on my coach and it really looks sharp. I tried to remove the small piece of 3M film from the face of the steps in prep to stick on the polished stainless. I used a heat gun and after about one hour was only able to get off a piece about 6" x 6". I gave up and scrubbed the 3M stuff with an abrasive pad and stuck the stainless over it.
Gary
Yahoo Message Number: 90253 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90253)
Hi Gary,
I don't like the 3M shield either and in hindsight wished that I had not had in put on my coach. One of the folks on this board stated that it should come off with just using the heat gun. But I agree with you Gary, I have hard time believing they will be able to remove my heavily blistered 3M film with a heat gun.
My 2001 Affinity had the plexiglass shield and between the 3M film and plexiglass shield; I like the plexiglass shield better as long as it is the hinged shield that could be lifted up so you could clean the front of the coach.
I don't know of any new products out there for a front shield and I not familiar with Summit Armor (I will look it up on the internet right now).
I have attached a picture of the front end of my coach; you will have to look closely to see all the blistering.
Rick,
2004 Allure 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90254 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90254)
I had my 3M professionally removed. Two men with heavy duty plastic scrapers and some solvent for the glue. No heat guns. About eight man hours and $600.
Paint underneath is magnificent.
George
'04 Inspire 51061 (for sale)
Yahoo Message Number: 90255 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90255)
Okay Per,
Let's try this one more time, and this is the last I will reply because I'm sure the other folks on this board are probably getting tired of this thread:
- I get it ... you like Ron a lot and think we should support him in whatever he attempts to do (OMC, new CC, etc) because he is such a great guy.
- You get that I see no benefit in a new CC
- I use the term "team" loosely to mean someone at CC made the decision to use the inferior fiberglass. Someone at CC recommended to CC mgmt to use the inferior fiberglass.
- Fact ... CC admitted that the fiberglass issue was a warranty issue and they were working on a resolution to the issue by pursuing a law suit with Dow Corning. This is where you are mixing apples and oranges with the gel coat issue. The gel coat/clear coat problems were probably not acknowledged by CC as warranty issue.
- Fact ... CC broke a promise to us folks on the list to take care of the inferior fiberglass issue.
- Fact ... Dow Corning settlement money was used for other things other than taking care of fiberglass warranty issue. We did not find about this until after CC had closed the doors. I assume the money went to trying to finish off coaches.
- I do blame the Lees, Howards and CC for how they handled the inferior fiberglass issue ... rightly or wrongly ... my prerogative. This is where you, and possibly others, do not think I should hold or blame Ron for the issue.
- The issue wasn't the only issue I had with my coach; just the biggest (I have two thick folders on the repairs I have done to this coach). I agree with Scott that the engineering wasn't that good on these coaches. Some of the specific systems are good but this really is a case of poor System Engineering. For those of you who don't know what system engineering is; it is the integration of all the systems for a given product. Making sure all the systems work well together and all are well integrated. I believe CC did not have or allow enough time for good systems engineering.
Can we now say we are done with this topic? Or do you want to continue? I vote that we are done and have exhausted this topic. You have your opinions; I have mine ... done.
Rick,
2004 Allure, 31018
Yahoo Message Number: 90256 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90256)
Since my wife & I are "newbies" at this, I appreciate the history of CC and I think the discussion should continue as long as facts are used. I will be watching to see where Mr. Lee, running CC will be in a year from now. I would like to see Mr. Lee implement a service desk (he may already have this), to help people find parts and service all over the world. This forum, is a huge, huge resource, I think someone that has the technical knowledge would only help, how much is "good will" worth these days? I hope I can meet some of you and spend the time I didn't when I purchased the coach. I feel like I have been handed the keys to a 787 and have found out how to turn it on.
Wally & Elta Mae
2007Allure 470 #31535
Yahoo Message Number: 90257 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90257)
Well, its seems I have the 3M on the nose cone. It seems like you have found a solution and I am wondering what it was that motivated you to seek this solution. Also, who did the work for you?
Wally & Elta Mae
2007Allure 470 #31535
Yahoo Message Number: 90259 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90259)
Wally,
If you get on the internet and look up Country Coach, you will find they have a parts department and a service department. Maria wll answer the phone, and route you to the appropriate department. They have folks that will try to help you with issues over the phone, and the parts department will find the part you need if available. If you can make the trip up there, they will inspect your coach nose to tail for $200, and you can decide what repairs if any you want them to do. They are a great bunch of folks and they have parking with power where you can stay if needed.
Despite what others are trying to say on this forum, except for the name, current Country Coach is a different entity than the outfit that built our coaches, although pretty much everyone were employed by the "old" Coountry Coach. They do have a lot of experience working on coaches.
Per
95 Affinity 5259
Yahoo Message Number: 90262 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90262)
Don't know if you're referring to me but if so...my 3M was in terrible condition with black mold spreading throughout. We have property at The Great Outdoors in Titusville, FL.
We have always used Dazzling Detailing to keep the exterior in tip top shape. They di the work right on the property, no mess whatsoever.
George
'04 Inspire 51061 (for sale)
Yahoo Message Number: 90268 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90268)
Regarding micro-checking aka gassing, virtually all CC models were affected. I have seen bad checking in Magnas, Intrigues (my 2009), Allures, Inspires, etc. don't see enough Affinities, Lexas or Prevosts to comment. Every manufacturer has had the same problem, especially when painted a dark color.
Coriwelsh Intrigue 12314
Yahoo Message Number: 90272 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90272)
Best to all of you. And that is what I've always received from this board, good support in a common goal of enjoying our coaches.
IMO, while good dialog, I encourage anyone following this thread that are new to CC - to recognize that some of the comments were not accurate. (Not a ding, as I do not feel the posters were aware they were not accurate.)
ALL COACHES HAVE PROBLEMS. (Note the "Period" at the end of the sentence:)!)
ALL MANUFACTURERS HAVE PROBLEM MODELS.
I researched, I determined what my wife and I wanted and could afford. I considered 'then known' quality problems related to certain rigs. And I then balanced them against how I graded them in overall value (That included the whole, of good quality items and build, along with the known problems.) I then went shopping.
I ended up with a 2004 CC Allure, High Cascade (this models galley was what sold the inside of the coach to the wife), two slides, ISL370, Tag. Two years and 8 months ago, I paid a 'for then' fair price for the coach (not a killer deal, but a fair deal). However, we remained within our budget range, and bought two times the coach we felt we would have bought for retirement usage. (The bad times for some, worked out in our favor, this time...) This coach had several items I was aware were not too slick. I do not like a non-slide generator. I have about 25% of the paint in dark maroon, with I think due to the cooler temperatures in San Diego, minimal checking. (Those were the big ones, some minor items I knew about but just don't worry about.) Now, before I bought, I knew this. I also knew before I made and offer, that the radiator is steel. I also knew the dry PTO was not a factor on this specific rig.
I feel we all have some accountability ourselves when buying used rigs, to do our due diligence. I knew that CC was gone.
Some of you bought rigs new, Rick has the next Allure down the assembly line from ours. If I had bought new, and then CC went belly up, and even worse if I had a CC Extended Warranty now worth nothing - I'm very positive my feelings towards CC would be different. I bought older, and had no expectations of warranty coverage, so CC being one was a non factor.
Is my coach perfect? No. Do I find 'Why did they do that?' items - yes. But I still feel that most (not all) CC Models are in the upper quartile off of coaches as far as quality, and ownership satisfaction.
I want the new CC to do well. I wish them luck. Help my coaches value? Maybe, but don't care - as I'm keeping it:)!
I've learned so many good things from this board's members, that I want to stay focused on this board remaining the positive group of Brain Trust sharing owners that it has been for decades.
When negative items pop up about a specific model, great, share them. Especially if they can help prevent or forewarn another owner.
I like the ability, and use it as needed on other boards(seldom here), of ignoring a post that is just to complain or slam a person, business or product.
I also really respect open dialog between people, but the PM is sometimes a better way for 'converse' then a full board posting.
My best to all, stay safe - and enjoy ourselves!! And, many, many thanks to the current board members, and to so many that are now SOB, or no longer RV'ing, that have posted such great pictures and links - it is what makes this board a great place to come on CC, and other, items.
Smitty
04 Allure 31017
Yahoo Message Number: 90277 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90277)
NOT the Prevost's.
Yahoo Message Number: 90278 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90278)
I know Winnebago had issues as did Newmar. I believe Newmar's problems were on dark colors in the mid to late 2000's models. We looked at a 2006 Mountain Aire that had some of it. Gary From: Corina Welsh To: "Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] CC Models Affected with Micochecking
Regarding micro-checking aka gassing, virtually all CC models were affected. I have seen bad checking in Magnas, Intrigues (my 2009), Allures, Inspires, etc. don't see enough Affinities, Lexas or Prevosts to comment. Every manufacturer has had the same problem, especially when painted a dark color.
Coriwelsh Intrigue 12314
Yahoo Message Number: 90292 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90292)
It seems to me that Ron Lee, if he wants to resurrect the Country Coach name and all of the good that we all find in our coaches, is going to have to take the bad as well. He and his brother (who really was the face of the company before the Howards ran it into the ground with the ridiculous Veranda concept) are synonymous with the brand and as, Rick has said, have to accept that they are going to be the brunt of deserved criticism. It really doesn't matter who was where when the sh*t hit the fan---the Lee name IS Country Coach. And, as has been said, a lot of people got screwed by Country Coach on the fiberglass issue. I got screwed to the tune of $11,000 when my radiator, PTO, and CAC all had to be replace on my '05 Inspire with only 28,000 miles on it...and I blame Country Coach for going cheap while still touting "The World's Finest Motorhomes". It doesn't really matter who the hell was running the place at a particular time..they were all trying to pinch pennies at the expense of the customer
If Ron Lee does not want to take criticism from some pretty justifiable sources, he should abandon the Country Coach name and call his new venture something else, e.g. Lee Enterprises. But, I somehow doubt that that is in his business plan. A company simply can't flip off a group of customers who paid well into six figures for a product, have an integral part of that product fail, assure those customers that it is a warranty issue, and then renege without suffering a significant blow to "good will". Ron Lee has to accept the bad if he wants the good....
Dave Glen
'06 Magna 6591
Yahoo Message Number: 90293 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90293)
FYI, someone on this forum once said the end cap on their Prevost indeed had checking.
Yahoo Message Number: 90297 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90297)
I saw the comment about magnas and intrigues but the paint department at CC told me that the magnas and intrigues did not use the same fiberglass and did not have the same issues as the lower end coaches.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 90300 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90300)
I have had the opportunity to compare the temperature of a wide dark blue stripe on a white motor boat in Florida sun. The white is cool to the touch You cannot hold your hand on the blue stripe for more than a few seconds. I believe the 120 temp mentioned previously. Bob 06 intrigue. 12047. 55,000 miles and no paint issues
Yahoo Message Number: 90304 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90304)
We actually have some minor mirochecking in a couple of the dark-painted areas of the coach, but it has been in the sun for most of it's life. It is nothing like the coaches I saw last month. Black areas were completely and severely microchecked, while the very light areas had virtually no microchecking. It definit3ely looks like it is heat-related. Not economical to refinish our coach, but we may have Doug Beaudry do some local touch-ups next year
Per
95 Affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 90320 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90320)
We see quite a few Prevosts here, we also have an ex-marathon painter who worked under/with John Star for many years and still painting coaches. We've all seen some crazy things paint wise on them, but haven't seen the same checking caused from the gassing as on the manufactured coaches. Sure it's possible, but more likely is that the painter missed something or rushed something.
Jim
Yahoo Message Number: 90322 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90322)
The checking occurs in the sheet fiberglass not the end caps that were hand built. Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 90376 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/90376)
Re: removing the 3M product.
Has anyone tried WD 40?. Looking at their Website, www.wd40.com (http://www.wd40.com), there are 2000 uses.
Michael
05 Inspire 51381