Yahoo Message Number: 92532 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92532)
Has anyone installed a performance chip on a cat C9 and achieved better MPG and more HP? MP-8 chip or any other mfg
Yahoo Message Number: 92533 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92533)
I have recently installed a washable K&N filter and Aero muffler on my C-9. I don't know how it impacts my mileage; but, believe it has improved my climbing in the mountains. It may be due to the lighter load I am carrying in my wallet. I was shocked at the design of the muffler they took off my coach as it seemed very restrictive. I seem to be running at 60 mph at about 1000 rpms less than prior to the change.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 92536 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92536)
Dan, where did you purchased the Aero Muffler, I had read they went out of business?
Thanks, Mike 03 Allure 1st Ave. #30898
Yahoo Message Number: 92537 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92537)
Mike
I bought it from Junction City Muffler in Junction City OR and I don't believe Aero is out of business because I talked to two other shops about a new muffler and both recommended the Aero. There are two sizes of Aero muffler and I went with the larger Turbine XL as it is quieter. Junction City bought up the exhaust components from the CC Auction and so they had the mandrel formed 90 degree 5"? bends that were needed.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 92542 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92542)
Dan,
Not to disagree with you, but a muffler and air intake change should not affect the RPMs at a given speed. The RPMs required for a given speed is a function of the mechanical gear ratios in the transmission and differential. The air intake and muffler do not affect this ratio.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92543 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92543)
Dan,
Are you sure it is 1000 RPMs instead of 100 RPMs? 1000 RPMs would be a lot when my C-9 only turns around 1500 RPMs at 60 MPH.
Jock Vargo
2005 Inspire
51428
Yahoo Message Number: 92553 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92553)
Not so with automatic transmissions that can slip.
Don Seager
Yahoo Message Number: 92554 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92554)
Mikee
You are certainly more qualified than I to discuss this matter and I recognize the situation you describe with my stick shift jeep. But, I pay very close attention to my RPMs and coming down from Junction City to San Diego ( a trip I have made many times) I was able to make the mountain passes without exceeding 1500 rpms when in the past the transmission would kick me up to 1600 to 1800 rpms. Do you have any ideas on the air filter and muffler change? I would think that whatever the amount of extra power produced the engine is going to climb stronger before it has to downshift.
I was shocked when I was shown the old muffler and wish I had taken pictures.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 92556 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92556)
Don,
Third through sixth are lock up. No slippage.
George in Birmingham '03 Magna 6298
Yahoo Message Number: 92557 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92557)
So the statement is not true for first and second with the Allison but still being a generalized statement it does not fit all cases. I have always been under the impression that only 6th was a lock up overdrive selection. Maybe I am confused with my Liberty. Don Seager
Yahoo Message Number: 92558 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92558)
Yeah Don, I think you are thinking of the application in autos.
In the MH3000 and MH4000 as well as the 3060 and 4060 there is even lockup in second gear. When upshifting from first to second it is not locked but becomes locked before the shift to third. Most of us feel the transition to locked second as a shift. Third gear and up are all locked.
Hope you and Mary are doing well in a home without wheels.
George in Birmingham '03 Magna 6298
Yahoo Message Number: 92562 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92562)
2nd gear and up the transmission convertor is in lock up, no slip.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92563 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92563)
Hi Dan,
If I am reading this correctly, you are saying the transmission is staying in a higher gear than before the muffler and air intake. This is entirely possible.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92564 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92564)
The Allison is in lock up, depending on programming, usually in 2nd thru 6th.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92565 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92565)
The shift sequence goes something like this, again depending on programming, 1st, 2nd, 2nd lockup, 3rd lockup, 4th lockup, 5th lockup, 6th lockup.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92572 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92572)
W seem to have veered away from the original question, the performance chip:
I had good results using a performance chip in a Cummins ICB but I too would like to hear if anyone has tried it in the C9.
Jim Coshow 2005 Inspire 51501
Yahoo Message Number: 92573 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92573)
Jim, if you didn't get my message when you posted this, I'll go through it again. We've been in the performance business since 1959 and test many products, and the TS kit for the C9 was one of them. We've tested other "$69" kits in various cars and found them to be totally worthless and introducing a new computer message on the dash that wouldn't go away until we removed them. The C9 mileage test went from 6.6MPG to over 10 on the Silverleaf and the performance increase was very noticeable even on a 30-ton Country Coach. We have this kit advertised for $399OBO on our site, or call me directly at 253-565-3578. Doug Nelson (www.aaamarine.com (http://www.aaamarine.com))
Yahoo Message Number: 92574 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92574)
Jim
Filter and exhaust are part of the performance equation. I have talked with several performance diesel shops regarding performance upgrades to the C-9. While many want to sell you the complete package which includes filter, muffler and chip others have recommended a more conservative approach which is to start with filter and muffler and evaluate. In my case I was concerned with the potential impact of the chip on my extended warranty.
Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 92578 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92578)
The torque converter will olny lock up when the pump vain speed (rpm) is equal to the ourpur rotor speed (rpm).
Don Seager
Yahoo Message Number: 92581 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92581)
If that were the case it would never lock up except when coasting downhill. The driven will never exceed the speed of the drive under load. This is the reason for lockup, direct coupling and increased fuel economy as well as reduced converter temps.
Most 4000 series are programmed for 1st converter and 2-6 lockup. When under heavy load it will downshift rather than unlock the converter.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92582 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92582)
I think I would be cautious to mess with the computer and try to get more from this engine. Its my understanding the c-9 has been rated at 400 hp for rv use only and the normal use in trucks would be less hp. I would be concerned with turning it up any more. One thing to note is the software version you may have might not be current. When I was having trouble getting our inspire to pass emissions here in Washington I took it to our Kenworth dealer and had them re-flash the software with the current version. I have been happy with the performance of the c-9 in our inspire. You may want to run it in to confirm what version of firmware your currently running.
Rod
Inspire/Magna
Yahoo Message Number: 92583 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92583)
I didn't make that up. Came straight from the horse's mouth. I never said exceed. I said equals.
Don Seager
Yahoo Message Number: 92585 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92585)
Under load the driven will never reach equal speed of the drive. It is a fluid coupling with slip. That is the reason the lock up converter was created, fuel economy.
You do not say who the horse's mouth is but that is an incorrect statement.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92586 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92586)
Ok, I will inform Allison of their error
Don Seager
Mbaul@... wrote:
Under load the driven will never reach equal speed of the drive. It is a fluid coupling with slip. That is the reason the lock up converter was created, fuel economy.
You do not say who the horse's mouth is but that is an incorrect statement.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92587 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92587)
Let me know who at Allison. I will be happy to have a discussion with them. I was a Detroit Diesel/ Allsion Engineer years ago. Also taught the Allison to techs.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92591 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92591)
? "Horse's mouth' was a figure of speech. The statement came from their publications. They did not use the term 'drive' or 'driven' but only discussion about speed of the two sets of vanes. They also made the statement that with their current design the torque converter could up to double the torque of the engine under certain conditions. Their explanation made sense to me but then so did their explanation of lockup.
I did some research and reported what I found. At this point I am only the messenger and no longer wish to be a target for shooting by anyone. If the publications are wrong then so be it. I still feel that Dan's findings could be true if he was operating in 5th speed and the torque converter was not locked regardless of how impossible you and others feel that situation might be. His empirical data is not complete enough for me to carry on any further discussion probably much to everyone's relief. Thanks for your input.
Don Seager
Yahoo Message Number: 92594 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92594)
Don,
I was not trying to shoot at anyone. I was trying to provide correct info. Even in cars today most transmissions go into lock up from 2nd gear up. It is a more efficient transmission of power.
All torque converters are used to multiply torque, hence the name. They have a drive taurus (sp) and a driven taurus. In between them is a stator with a one way clutch or sprag that locks when the drive is faster than the driven. This is what multiplies the torque, Once the unit is rolling with today's engines and their torque curves the stator function is not used above 1st gear. It is used for initial acceleration, it acts like a manual clutch to a degree.
If you drive your car, assuming it is not a CVT you can feel 1st converter, then 2nd 2nd lockup and so on. Count the shifts, you should feel it. A gear change is usually about 300 to 400 rpm change and converter lockup is usually about 200 rpms.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92595 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92595)
The limitation on HP in an RV is cooling capacity. I have seen on Cat web pages that the C9 can be rated as high as 600hp - in boats which have a virtually unlimited cooling system.
Adding HP will burn more fuel and not increase economy. All aftermarket chips I am aware of add more fuel to increase performance. If an exhaust temp gauge isn't installed (and used) engine damage is more likely because the cooling system is not sized to absorb the added heat.
I was told by a Cat engineer at an FMCA show some years ago the pollution controlled C9 uses three fuel injections for each combustion cycle: one before, one during and one after ignition. This apparently increases fuel burning but not necessarily produce more usable power. I have always wondered if the ECM could be reprogrammed to eliminate the unneeded injections (if that is even a true statement) yielding an increase in economy.
Also important is that modern diesels use more fuel because they make more power which we as drivers tend to use. It isn't all lost to pollution control devices. Drive like there is a raw egg on the throttle pedal and your economy will improve significantly. Don't know about everyone else but I can't do that so I just drive, enjoy the ride and accept the real world fuel use of 6-7 mpg.
Bob
2005 Inspire 51178
Yahoo Message Number: 92596 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92596)
A bigger factor in boat HP is the lack of emission controls and standards. They do not have tailpipe emission standards like land engines. So they can pout the fuel to it and make HP. Now, the cooling system is usually designed for a specific HP and torque regardless of engine size. So increasing the HP or torque can result in temperature issues.
Smaller radiators cost less, so manufacturers use the correct size for the hp of the engine. Increasing the HP and you become a test pilot.... Usually when you need the HP (hills, etc) you will be temp limited.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92597 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92597)
Bob this has to be the most honest answer I have seen on MPG! "Don't know about everyone else but I can't do that so I just drive,&;enjoy the ride and accept the real world fuel use of 6-7 mpg" thank you.
Ray O'Connell
They say wine improves with age! As I enter my golden years, I say age improves with wine! The Born Loser
Yahoo Message Number: 92598 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92598)
I have been surprised by how fast temps come down when the fan goes to high. It will drop temps from 208 to 199 in seconds even when still climbing. That suggests (to the extreme engineering genius in me) that the cooling system is fairly robust when operating properly.
Mikee, does the restricted OEM muffler have anything to do with engine temps?
Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9
Yahoo Message Number: 92610 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92610)
The thermostat controls engine temp more than anything else. Engines have a designed back pressure spec. This is done for a lot of reasons, engine temps is not one of them.
Mikee
Yahoo Message Number: 92612 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92612)
A 50% increase in MPG is just pure bull!! Impossible!
Bruce
Yahoo Message Number: 92613 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92613)
Well I have a C10 Cat, would love to improve the mileage, is there a chip for that engine...99 CC Magna C10 CAT
Yahoo Message Number: 92650 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/92650)
Perhaps the mileage increase claim was a typo, as I suspect is the 30-ton Country Coach he claims to have produced this remarkable increase with. Wow, even 6mpg would be awesome for a 60,000 lbs vehicle with a little (in comparison) C9.
Bob Handren
05 Inspire 51178