Yahoo Message Number: 7239 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7239)
Damon, Damon, Damon: I thought we lived in the land of Free Enterprise, where competiton was a good thing. Are you dreaming that all of the Country Coach business be directed to you ? ? ? A Bad Idea for WHO? ?, The Dealers? ? ? ? ? ? Lee in Portland, voting for Competition among Dealers.....
Yahoo Message Number: 7242 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7242)
Lee,
I knew I should have kept quiet ;-). The "only" item I want to make clear is that in my opinion posting a markup that is not correct and not in favor of Country Coach is a bad idea. Thats it, nothing else.
Off that subject and to answer your questions, I love Competition! Competition is a great thing, with out it we would not be where we are today. I am a very competitive person and I love competition.
I would never expect or indicate that all the CC business be directed to me, I dont know what makes you say this?
Damon
Yahoo Message Number: 7246 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7246)
Damon, since you don't want ALL the Country Coach business, I'll go ahead and take it. (smile)
Robin
Yahoo Message Number: 7249 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7249)
Excuse me...shouldn't this forum be centered on coach owners, not vendors. Seems we lose objectivity, huh?
One word of caution: Price is only one of the factors. A good dealer and proper prep and service is a huge factor. Been there. Done that. My dealer experience was so bad that it took all the fun out of buying a new coach. I'm a happy camper now, but will never (repeat, never) buy another new coach. Life is too short. Have fun.
We're headed for Arizona and warmer climate for the winter.
Larry
Intrigue
10762
Yahoo Message Number: 7256 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7256)
WASHINGTON (Nov. 24) - Hassles related to buying new or used vehicles top the annual list of most frequent consumer complaints, according to a survey released Monday.
TheNational Association of Consumer Agency Administrators, which represents government agencies that protect American shoppers, and the Consumer Federation of America, a citizens advocacy group, compiled the top 10 list for 2002 from complaints reported to state and local consumer-protection agencies.
Those agencies said they were able to get $130 million returned to wronged consumers last year, an 18 percent increase over 2001.
Yahoo Message Number: 7258 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7258)
To All,
I would like to put a "plug" in here for Damon. I just purchased a 2004, 36', CC Allure from Damon and it was a very pleasant experience. I found Damon to be very professional, considerate, knowledgeable, and competent. He went out of his way to make sure I was happy and to take care of any issues I had.
I have been looking for a coach for over a year and talk to hundreds of salespeople; joined this group; and also joined RV. org to do my research on what the best coaches are. Without a doubt, Damon was the best. He doesn't bullshit you; he gives the best number he can right from the start; he doesn't treat you like you are an idiot and you know nothing about the business. He understands that most people who buy Country Coaches are pretty savvy. And if you want to know if you are getting a good deal on a CC, just call around and see if anybody can beat his number. I believe in most cases, his deals cannot be beat (no one could in my case). There is a reason why he has been the top salesman for Country Coach the last two years running (and most likely this year too). There are other people on this board who can attest to their good experiences with Damon.
This is the first time in my life that I have formally put-in a good word for a salesman. I am doing this because most of the salespeople in the RV business are terrible. I am appalled by how bad they are. Most of the time, I knew much more about the coaches than they did. You will find very, very few salespeople as good as Damon is.
Hopefully, I didn't come on to strong.
Rick Barnette,
2004 CC 36' Allure
31018
P.S. He didn't pay me for that endorsement
Yahoo Message Number: 7259 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7259)
And where does one contact Damon?
Doug Allure 30929
Yahoo Message Number: 7260 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7260)
Hi Doug,
Damon works for Guaranty RV in Junction City, Oregon (where Country Coaches are manufactured).
Rick
Yahoo Message Number: 7261 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7261)
I agree 100%. Have had help and assistance from Damon for over three years even though our CC was purchased used from another Guaranty location.
When the DOW reaches 15000 we will purchase a new coach and will be dealing with Damon.
David & Karen CA.
Yahoo Message Number: 7264 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7264)
Boy Larry, I sure agree with you. We have just gone through the "first year" with a new coach (not CC-next time but not new) and what a miserable experience. The people at the dealership were extremely nice but absolutely incompetent. Just picked up the coach yesterday (still not completed) for Thanksgiving. It has been unusable since early June. We missed summer vacation and many long weekend trips. Sad thing is our story of very incompetent dealerships is the norm not the exception. Glad we didn't have to pay, under warranty, as their labor rates are $120/hr.
Robert
Yahoo Message Number: 7265 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7265)
Hi Rick
Congratulations on your new Allure.
I enjoyed your comments regarding Damon, and I agree. I wish to inform the group that I am a little bias on this topic, since I purchased my 2003 Allure from Damon. I feel very fortunate to have met Damon and learned the basics of Diesel Motor Homes from him. I was not so lucky with my first RV purchase.
I know that there are other great RV sales people out there. I just have not met them yet. Having the right salesperson is much more inportant then the dealership. (IMHO)
Thanks Damon for all that you have done.
Tom Royer
2003 Allure #30858
Yahoo Message Number: 7266 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7266)
Damon, I know it's Thanksgiving and all that, but aren't you embarrassed by having all your relatives write in for you? (smile)
Have a great turkey day.
Robin
Yahoo Message Number: 7267 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7267)
Robin,
I am embarrassed, especially since they all live in Hawaii. Do you know what time they had to get up this morning!
Gobble-Gobble and thanks everyone.
Damon
Yahoo Message Number: 7268 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7268)
I guess I should throw my .02 cents in as well. I have never met Damon. And I have only communciated with him via this group. I am currently looking for a used CC to purchase. Damon has been very helpful in getting me educated about CC's. I don't know if the opportunity to buy from Damon will present itself but I would not hesitate to do so if or when he has "the" coach I want. Best to all and have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Michael
Yahoo Message Number: 7269 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7269)
So, I'll throw my $.02 worth here... we call and talked with Damon and while we were not able to come to a deal he was more than helpful... It's unfortunate that we're $5000.00 apart... He did his best and now we're off to find another coach..
Kevin and Lorene Doukas
Yahoo Message Number: 7271 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7271)
I think its great that so many people appreciate the work that Damon has done for them, but I think we've lost the thread. This started by a comment that "to learn the manufacturer's transfer price to the dealer, divide the list price by 1.4". Damon stated this is old info and that the current divisor is different for each manufacturer, but doesn't offer even a workable range of divisor to use.
Prior to buying our second CC in 2002, I learned from an ex-RV sales person that the CC divisor was 1.38 for the base price and 1.40 for the options. I was able to gain some confirmation from a secondary source, and used this info to establish the price I offered for our current coach. Note, I am not claiming that struck a deal at list divided by 1.38 or 1.4, but mearly used the result to set my price.
Interestingly, when my Guaranty salesperson scoffed at this number, I then went into a discussion of reasonable profit. Surprisingly, after much discussion we agreed that a reasonable profit on a new Magna was more than $6K and less than $10K. Again, I am not asking you to agree... However, when the salesperson carried in my offer of $8K over invoice, less holdbacks, sales management refused to show the invoice, discuss holdbacks, etc.
This, then, is the central issue in motorhome retail pricing - none of us are dealing from any knowledge of dealer cost, much less manufacturer cost. We have all learned to silently pity the newbie motorhomer who brags of buying a new coach at 10 or 15 percent off! We all seem to learn that if you don't get a discount of 25% off list, you were had. And, we all learn that the residual value of our coaches decreases by something like 20% the first year and 10% annually thereafter for the next four years or so, and this, not from list price, but from the real price (could this be the manufacturers transfer price?)
So, the issue of dealer pricing is real - no one knows how many first time motorhome buyers are upside down as they drive off the lot. And, how many of these first timers don't come back into the market when they learn they've been had? Damon and the others would much better serve the buyers if they worked on a reasonable profit over cost basis. This occurred in the automotive market, and it will likely occur in motorhomes - I just hope we don't have to wait too long... (naively stated).
Sawbuck
2002 Magna Resort #6159
Apologies to Damon for using him for this long comment - We've met and he seems okay.
Yahoo Message Number: 7272 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7272)
I could not agree more! As Lorene and I started on the process of purchasing our first coach we had plenty of work to accomplish. Not only did we have to figure out the "system" but, we also had to determine who and what were the best coach builders and the model that would fit our needs.
After we completed that part of the process (very difficult for the newbie) we then had to research the coach dealer network and find one that met not only our price requirements, but more importantly our service requirements as well. Being totally new to the process we were/are going to need a lot of help on both fronts. Lorene and I spent the better part of six(+) weeks doing our diligence to this part of the process and decided to move forward with Buddy Gregg. This also proved to be the biggest headache that I have ever endured in my life.
Not having the secret handshake (formula to figure cost) we had to start from ground zero and through some savvy (lucky) negotiations we were able to back into the equation. And basically Sticker/1.4 is the dealer cost of a coach with the dealer keeping the holdback. So I quickly went to 27% off sticker and felt that this was/is a fair price and that is what we have settled on for our new CC Inspire to be delivered any day now....
PLEASE help us 'newbies" we need all the help and advise we can get... that's why we joined this group...
Thank you for allowing us to participate!
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Kevin and Lorene Doukas
04 CC Inspire (no serial # yet)
Yahoo Message Number: 7276 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7276)
Hi Sawbuck,
There is no workable range to offer as each manufacturer and model is different. There are also different mark ups for options like you stated. On a stock unit at a show we sometimes have incentives to move those coachs, there are many variables in this business. Then you have discount math and mark up math, which always gets confused and mix matched in favor of the buyer who has heard they can get a 30% discount (example) but does not realize how to do the math.
Pity... I had a customer who was reffered to me because his had 30 days left to live and needed to cash out of his 2002 Magna. He wanted me to wholesale it for him, he dropped off the Magna, his free and clear signed off title and paperwork from his purchase contract.
I noticed he paid 100% full retail, then this dealer charged him $1,400.00 for his walk thru/dealer prep. I questioned it and he said that he did in fact pay full retail, which I want to say was $440,000.00 plus. I called a few places with him (on speaker phone) and I think the highest buy bid we could get was $225,000.00. He took it and said "boy, this coach sure depreciated in a year didn't it?" You cannot blame depreciation on a buyer who paid full price, and I think many people do. You also cannot expect to retail purchase an RV and get retail back 2 years and 24,000. miles later.
The only accurate way to figure depreciation in to retail it yourself, of course this involves time, dealing with the public, phone calls, test drives, advertising, etc. Then throw a trade into the picture, how about a 98-40' non slide that there upside down $50,000.00 plus, having fun yet?
Buying a $300,000.00 RV is like buying $300,000.00 worth of airline tickets at once. Everytime you fly (or drive) you have used a ticket, you have to allow something for the good times, the bad times you laugh a year later (lets hope), the entire experience. It does not work for everyone, but most who try it love it and have priceless memories.
If you rip someone off chances of selling them another coach and getting refferals are pretty slim. Just as important you have to look at value, value in the coach, the dealership, & the salesperson. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.
Happy Holidays (even you Robin)
Damon
PS. I never let him wholesale the Magna, I retailed it for him that afternoon for $275,000.00.
Yahoo Message Number: 7278 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7278)
Hi Damon;
Thanks for the interesting reply.
I think you are locking in too much on the issue of discounts/mark- ups, etc. The issue you and others keep trying to avaoid is cost information and a reasonable profit. It is not nearly so important to define the various discounts, incentives, programs, etc. being offered by the manufacturer to the dealer. Since we cannot buy direct, we must buy throught a dealer. Therfore, the fair way to treat customers would be to disclose whatever you pay the manufacturer for the coach and what your profit is (ideally justifying the profit by explaining the dealer costs which have to be covered by it.)
Most of us don't begrudge the dealer a fair profit; for we want the dealer to stay in business and support us with our coach issues down the road. The reason all this hocus-pocus about discounting the list price has evolved is that the list price system is not relevant to the cost of the coach nor anywhere close to what most informed customers pay for their motorhome. So we find a backwards sales system, where the salesperson acknowledges that no one pays list price, and therefore asks the customer for a 'bid" on the rig.
Depending on the knowledge and sophistication of the customer, this "bid" then becomes a working number which is adjusted, generally upward, until the dealer makes sufficient profit or determines the sale will be lost, or ? Dealer sales simply doesn't want to give an asking price, for fear of alienating a knowledgeable customer. Far better to let the customer offer a price, right?
Wouldn't a better system be one where the dealer says this motorhome costs $XXX, XXX.XX and for a unit of this cost, we add a charge of X percent, which includes our overhead, sales commission, profit, etc.
Not too likely right now, huh? But what if we all started organizing - and publishing the price we paid for our coaches, along with the list base and options prices off the CC build sheet. This would start to be quite a data source and offer some validating information to both new and repeat buyers.
Could be real interesting to get Lazydays looking at the prices paid by Guaranty buyers and vice versa...
So, what do you think?
Sawbuck
Yahoo Message Number: 7280 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7280)
Sawbuck, I don't want to pay anymore than I have to for a coach, but I don't see why any dealer should have to tell a prospective customer what he pays for his product. Does the grocery store or the department store tell us what the wholesale price of their merchandise is? Not hardly. I don't care what someone posts as the wholesale price of any product, someone always gets a better deal from the manufacturer. Do you really think that macy's pays the same as your local small town clothing store? The majority of the folks buying a new CC have had some experience in the business world. I wonder how many of them would give their customers the price they pay for the items they sell. We always want to pay the lowest for what we buy and sell to others for the most we can. It all comes down to buying from someone you have some trust in. If you think buying from the lowest bidder is the only way, think HMO. That's what happens when every goes to the lowest bidder.
Do your home work, talk to others, follow the messages in groups like this, and deal with people who have a reputation for treating their customers right.
We bought our coach from Guaranty. We started there and ended up buying from them because friends whose judgement we trust recommended that we buy from Guaranty. We might have paid a few bucks more, but the service we have received has made up for it. We had some personality problems in the beginning with a service writer, but between the sales manager and the service manager we have been taken care of since. I would recommend them to anyone.
John
1999 Intrigue #10877
Yahoo Message Number: 7282 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7282)
Now there is a good question. What is a fair RV Dealer profit??. I my business an 8% after tax profit is our Goal. Our Main Metal supplier has 3% after tax profit Goal. So, what is a resonable after tax profit for An RV Dealer?????? Betcha, you will not get an RV Dealer Owner to give you a straight answer on that One......
Lee in Portland with only a 4.5% year to date after tax profit in our trcuk accessories/metals Fabicaton business....
Yahoo Message Number: 7286 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7286)
Well stated Sawbuck ... couldn't agree with you more ... I wish we could learn what the invoice price for the motorhomes were ... just like you can with cars.
Rick
Yahoo Message Number: 7287 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7287)
Damon:
I think you are missing the point to the initial thread that was started a few days ago by myself and a few others concerning the ability to purchase one's first coach. This has proved to be a very daunting task. Dealers have threatened not to service a coach if I went and purchased from another dealer, have stated that they could not "eat" if they sold a prospective coach if "one penny less" only to move $20,000.00 lower in price in just two days, took our credit which is excellent and "shot gunned" our application all over God's green creation. This is not how I want to conduct my business!
These are the types of methods we have encountered in the 2 months that Lorene and I have been shopping very diligently to purchase our FIRST coach, Now, I can say that you have been very helpful over the last few days in assisting us, but, like other dealers we are 5K apart on making a deal. That is not a problem, however, when we check pricing on a coach there is as much as $50-75,000.00 difference in asking to selling price so who knows for sure what is a fair price to pay for either a new or used coach.
You spoke about inflated sticker prices to over allow for a trade-in coach, this is at the crux of the issue! If dealers kept their markup at a stable price with a fair profit margin then and only the could you start to allow for a fair uninflated trade-in price on a coach. In addition, the downside of this on the financial side has a great impact on your ability to get some folks financed because bankers are aware of the price gauging that goes on in the RV Motor coach business and puts high demands on us for very large down payments and higher interest rates to compensate for the folks who just walk away from a coach that they can NEVER see the light of day on because the dealer they purchased the coach from has just completely screwed them on pricing regardless of new or used. Read the repossession rates are sky high on RV's! Much greater than cars, truck, and yes even airplanes!
The equation is simple, being in sales for a major high tech firm I can tell you that I NEVER allow any of my global managers to gauge ANY customer, we treat them very fairly, if they have a problem we fix it even if it's not our "fault". That's called goodwill and keeping a customer that will send you referrals.
While we have been solely focused on price this also applies to the service end of the business, calling the dealer and having to wait 3-4 weeks just to make a service appt. and longer if you did not purchase through that dealer's network is absolutely unbelievable! If I ran my business the way some of the dealers we have run into do today my company would go out of business and my personal reputation would not be worth a plugged nickel to my customers!
In conclusion I am NOT saying that you or your company conduct your business this way, but, quite a few are and have tried to take advantage of Lorene and I thinking that I was not a knowledgeable consumer in purchasing our first coach.
Thanks in advance for letting me rant and rave a little..... Damon, I believe that you're a good guy and thanks for the help this week in sorting through your inventory and IF you move $5000.00 I'll fly up and drive that coach home next weekend!
Kevin and Lorene Doukas
Yahoo Message Number: 7290 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7290)
Sawbuck,
You will get the last word on this subject because this is my last word. I did answer your question, dealer cost is different on every coach, model, and how we received it (show or stock). Who knows what a fair price is? And most buyers have a "trade in" to really complicate matters. When a buyer has a trade in, that buyer is asking us to buy his trade from them. We may sell it in a day or still have it in two years. Think of the interest charges the larger dealers pay per day, month, or year. The overhead to run one of these RV dealerships is staggering.
Most buyers of these high end coachs are business owners or managers. Did you ever market your product from cost?
You get get organized and tell each other what you paid, but again most people had a trade in so how do you really know? The manufacturers change there mark up every year, you may get a rough average but I dont know what good it would do.
I guess we could go on all day, hopefully you can appreciate that I work for a dealer and sell RV's for a living. I am trying to give you an insight from my view. Every deal is different.
So that is what I think. Thanks for your replys.
Damon
Yahoo Message Number: 7291 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7291)
As a long-time "lurker" and coach wannabe (been researching for nearly 2 years and will probably buy this spring), I've followed this thread closely. It's easy to see both viewpoints, but as a consumer I tend to agree with the "gimme the data" side. I'm perfectly willing to pay my fair share for whatever I buy, but don't want to pay a penny more, whether it's taxes, motorhomes, cars, houses, or whatever. The trouble with this industry seems to be that it's almost impossible to determine what that "fair share" price is.
I couldn't agree more that having a good dealer is important, but that's almost a function of geographic happenstance - if you happen to live close to a reputable dealer, then great, but if not, you're out of luck. IF you live close to a good dealer, then it's probably worth paying a bit more (what constitutes a "bit" is in the eye of the beholder) to be in the dealer's good graces if you need service.
On the other hand, we live 2,224.09 miles from Damon's dealership, so it is rather unlikely that we would service our coach there :)
Furthermore, it seems that even if you purchase from a reputable dealer, you're still likely to have to wait weeks (or even months) to get servicing. AND if you have a problem on the road, what dealer you purchased from seems to make almost no difference. Given all this, it's easy to understand why so many buyers (myself included) seem to focus on the price and the reputation of the manufacturer.
Which, of course, means we all want to know the detailed cost data to aid in our purchase decision :)
As for Damon, I've been following his posts since before he moved to Oregon, and he has a superb reputation for "telling it like it is" with regards to the various coaches, both good and bad. I've had several discussions with him, both e-mail and telephone, and have found his counsel to be uniformely excellent. He does not bad mouth other brands, and has been very candid about both the good and bad points of the CC coaches we've discussed. If we elect to go with a CC coach, we are very likely to buy it from Damon - presuming, of course, he gives me a good (make that great) price :)
Gary
Yahoo Message Number: 7292 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7292)
Hi Damon;
Thanks again for your response - sorry you don't want to continue the discussion, as the growing response from the group indicates some interest in the discussion.
Anyway, reviewing the comments, yours included, I will comment that:
1) Auto/truck invoices are regularily provided to customers, and are available through Internet services, so it can and is being done.
2) None of those systems expose manufacturers cost, just invoice charge (nor holdbacks, incentives or discounts).
3) Manufacturers and others can and work from cost - we used "cost plus" frequently in our manufacturing business for negotiated sales.
4) You keep repeating that "dealer cost is different on every coach, model, and how we received it (show or stock).", so what does this change about doing business on a cost plus profit basis.
5) I understand your position with Guaranty.
6) Change may come - you have a group of supporters and could be an
agent for change instead of justifyinging present business model.
Anyway, this needs to be discussed - I am disappointed, but understand, that the RV dealer and manufacturing community, and the supposed consumer organizations like Good Sam and FMCA, do not want to address this - challenges profits. But the growing influx of Baby Boomers (like myself) will continue to ask these questions in the hope of causing change.
Sawbuck
2002 Magna Resort - #6159
Yahoo Message Number: 7293 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7293)
Damon:
I think you are missing the point to the initial thread that was started a few days ago by myself and a few others concerning the ability to purchase one's first coach. This has proved to be a very daunting task. Dealers have threatened not to service a coach if I went and purchased from another dealer, have stated that they could not "eat" if they sold a prospective coach if "one penny less" only to move $20,000.00 lower in price in just two days, took our credit which is excellent and "shot gunned" our application all over God's green creation. This is not how I want to conduct my business!
These are the types of methods we have encountered in the 2 months that Lorene and I have been shopping very diligently to purchase our FIRST coach, Now, I can say that you have been very helpful over the last few days in assisting us, but, like other dealers we are 5K apart on making a deal. That is not a problem, however, when we check pricing on a coach there is as much as $50-75,000.00 difference in asking to selling price so who knows for sure what is a fair price to pay for either a new or used coach.
You spoke about inflated sticker prices to over allow for a trade-in coach, this is at the crux of the issue! If dealers kept their markup at a stable price with a fair profit margin then and only the could you start to allow for a fair uninflated trade-in price on a coach. In addition, the downside of this on the financial side has a great impact on your ability to get some folks financed because bankers are aware of the price gauging that goes on in the RV Motor coach business and puts high demands on us for very large down payments and higher interest rates to compensate for the folks who just walk away from a coach that they can NEVER see the light of day on because the dealer they purchased the coach from has just completely screwed them on pricing regardless of new or used. Read the repossession rates are sky high on RV's! Much greater than cars, truck, and yes even airplanes!
The equation is simple, being in sales for a major high tech firm I can tell you that I NEVER allow any of my global managers to gauge ANY customer, we treat them very fairly, if they have a problem we fix it even if it's not our "fault". That's called goodwill and keeping a customer that will send you referrals.
While we have been solely focused on price this also applies to the service end of the business, calling the dealer and having to wait 3-4 weeks just to make a service appt. and longer if you did not purchase through that dealer's network is absolutely unbelievable! If I ran my business the way some of the dealers we have run into do today my company would go out of business and my personal reputation would not be worth a plugged nickel to my customers!
In conclusion I am NOT saying that you or your company conduct your business this way, but, quite a few are and have tried to take advantage of Lorene and I thinking that I was not a knowledgeable consumer in purchasing our first coach.
Thanks in advance for letting me rant and rave a little..... Damon, I believe that you're a good guy and thanks for the help this week in sorting through your inventory and IF you move $5000.00 I'll fly up and drive that coach home next weekend!
Kevin and Lorene Doukas
Yahoo Message Number: 7296 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7296)
I should really keep out of this but it does take two to tango...I assume that you (Kevin) are dickering for a CC which can cost $300k and up. A difference of $5k is a very small percentage of the total cost. Can you divide the difference and make a congenial deal? Damon? Kevin? I am here in JC, at Camp CC, and will be happy to share a toast!
Yahoo Message Number: 7297 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7297)
...I'm all about compromise and all I have asked of Damon is a $5000.00 discount off the price he quoted to me.... I do not think that is a lot to ask.... so yes, I'll be glad to toast a new coach...
To be fair to Damon, I think he would do this in a heart beat... It's his boss and a LONG story...
Kevin Doukas
Yahoo Message Number: 7301 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7301)
Rick,
Do you credit any of the good service you mentioned to Damon? My experience with service at Guaranty couldn't be worse. Just wondering if the difference is the salesperson. Our salesman tried to help when we were totally frustrated, but the system didn't seem to give the sales staff any influence.
Doug
Yahoo Message Number: 7304 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7304)
Doug,
When we encountered our problem in the service department, we went straight to the sales manager. After hearing our problem he had the service manager join us and work out our problem. Between the sales manager and the service manager, everything was taken care of. They frankly admitted that one of the problems associated with the huge sales gain has been the impact on the service dept. They were very apoligetic and made sure that we were able to get thru our ordeal with as little grief as possible. They gave us direct numbers to each of them and emphasized that if there were any further problems to let them know. The only way they know there is a problem is to let them know. Try this approch and see what happens.
John
99 Intrigue #10877
Yahoo Message Number: 7305 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7305)
Kevin, you should take your negotiations offline. This thread started out as a discussion of sales practices, and has now ended up with you trading posts with a salesman regarding a specific price on a coach. It seems to some of us that you are trying to pressure this salesman to agree to your price by pushing the issue on this board, in front of the other owners. That may not be the case, but that is how it is coming across. Good luck, hope you end up buying a CC, they are great coaches.
Bill Harris
03 Allure 1st Ave 30912
Datastorm
Yahoo Message Number: 7309 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7309)
Bill:
Thanks for the input, but, no I'm not trying to negotiate any price with Damon..... We have been communicating for over a week now, and I am moving on to purchase another coach. My reply was to a post by another coach owner who offered to "mediate" our differences.
The coach I was talking to Damon about was/is a used coach and I'm now going to move forward with a new coach (04 Inspire) from Buddy Gregg here in Dallas.
Please let me apologize if there was any inference of impropriety on my part... Best to all and have a GREAT THANKSGIVING and GO Cowboys!
Kevin and Lorene Doukas
Dallas, Texas
Yahoo Message Number: 7312 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7312)
Kevin,
sounds great...welcome to the family of CC owners, and happy Thanksgiving to all!
Bill Harris
03 Allure 1st Ave 30912
Datastorm
Yahoo Message Number: 7318 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7318)
Hi Doug,
There is no question in my mind that the salesperson can make all the difference in the world with service. This could be before, during , or after the sale. You may be 15 states away, the salesman can and should make every effort possible to get you back on the road asap, period. The salesman can get involved whether it be speaking to the manufacturer, the service manager, the service center (if remote), there are many, many options available. Thats not to say that we can move mountains and walk on water to get you back on the road, but a sincere effort should be given.
I delivered a used 2002 Intrigue #11331 last week Wednesday, this was his 2nd Intrigue I had him. He lives in Illinois, he flew out to Eugene, I picked him up at the airport. We did his walk thru, he stuck around a couple of days and left last week Friday morning. He fought the snow all the way to Denver, CO. He called me at home Saturday night about 10:30pm, he pulled into a flying J, had dinner, returned to his coach and it would not crank over. He had plenty of power, all the dash lights worked, headlights, etc. but the engine would not turn over. He had called for a tow truck and the called me to see what I thought. I told him I thought the wire on his starter solenoid had fallen off with all the snow and ice he plowed thru.
When the tow truck driver showed up, John told him what I said and he used a screwdriver to jump the starter, and his Intrigue fired up.
He drove 5 miles down the road to a Kenworth dealer where they installed a new connector and plugged it back in to his starter for free about mid night.
So to answer your question, in my opinion the salesman can make a huge impact by helping you get back on the road asap. And John made it home for Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Damon
Yahoo Message Number: 7319 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7319)
Sawbuck,
What is a reasonable profit? and who says you should not make as much as you can on the things you sell. I worked in the oil industry for 35 years and when ever anyone complained about how much we made on gasoilne, I always came back with "if it were your gasoline would you give it away", no one ever said yes.
We don't have a right to know what a dealer paid for a coach. He should be selling the coach for as much as he can get and we should trying to get it as cheap as possible keeping in mind that he needs a profit to stay in business and to be there when we need him. I always get a kick out of the guy that saves a few 100 dollars somewhere and then complains when he can't get service at the dealer who was a few hundred more expensive. After spending $20,000,000 a year for 35 years, you find out that the lowest price is not always the best price.
Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998
Yahoo Message Number: 7331 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7331)
Hi Bill;
No arguement with your statement in general - my point was in reference to the original thread about what is the "real" price of the RV, as compared to the list price.
As to your example, gasoline is a commodity and commodity pricing always is based on supply and demand, not so in the RV industry.
Also, commodities, by definition, are items which the consumer has little choice about purchasing (perhaps brand, but little else).
Lastly, complaining about the price of a commodity like fuel is an American pastime!
I used the term reasonable without defining it, and noted that to gain repeat customers, it may be a better policy. Not withstanding the fiction on auto dealer invoice, we can at least go on-line now and gain some insight as to the deler invoice price prior to dealing on a car. We still don't see manufacturer's cost, nor do we see the discounts, holdbacks, and incentive programs. But its a lot better than just looking at a window sticker and trying to get something off of it. Nothing here about "rights", just an optional approach to the current system...
Your position is okay, but still makes it difficult for a newbie to purchase a coach without paying too much or at least more than experienced buyers. When newbies do that, how many of them are happy later on, and how many don't buy a second rig?
Sawbuck
2002 Magna Resort #6159
Yahoo Message Number: 7332 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7332)
Why dont you take this discussion private? This board is not meant for arguments (to quote you). This could go on forever and out of respect for the members, please take your argument off the board.
Yahoo Message Number: 7370 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7370)
Sawbuck,
Will cost information really mean anything. Take cars for example, there are books everywhere on cars, and the info is only a guide line, you still do not know the real price the dealer pays because of all the special discounts the system offers to different dealers. People should do their own research and make their deals. Besides, when a person pays a higher price for something then we may get it cheaper because the dealer already made the profit he needs on that sale.
Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998
Yahoo Message Number: 7374 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7374)
Bill:
I think that I started the thread and Sawbuck has chimed in several time with may a good point! My contention has/is that dealers have so over inflated the pricing structure that it is almost impossible to get a FAIR honest price from ANY dealer.
The dealer network has successfully been able to manipulate the pricing structure to tilt the advantage so far in their direction that new folks like me wanting to strike a fair and equitable deal find it almost impossible to do so.... In Fact because of the "over allowance" that the dealer provides as a solution to show a customer for his/her trade more money in an effort to make that customer "feel" better" only makes this situation less palatable. If a dealer was to trade for a coach at real dollars his profit margins would drastically drop because the dealer would truly have to put a fair market price on a used coach, the customer like it or not! This would go to the dealer's bottom line as he would sell less coaches because the customer would truly see the market for what it is at the time of the prospective trade. This would go on for a couple of years until the customer's equity position improved and the fair market price of a new coach is adjusted down to reflect supply and demand. Until we as coach owners are willing to make the dealer network pay for their mistakes they will be able to continue the practice of a false over allowance and continue to inflate new coach prices exacerbating today's market place even further. A clear example of this pricing structure is a coach that I talked with Damon about, a 2002 Monaco Dynasty that his place of employment priced at over $250,000.00. When I inquired about this coach and Guaranty found out that it was a cash deal with NO trade the price dropped to $185,000.00, still some 10-15K too high. Currently Damon and I are $5000.00 apart on making a deal on this coach and I don't think we'll be able to get there due to his management team. Somebody please help me justify/understand the logic of a discount of almost $80,000.00 or roughly 29%?!
There is nothing wrong with profit and I would never want to put a dealer in a compromising (well almost never) position because I truly believe that a dealer must/should be able to take care of the customer network. The key is for ALL the dealers and coach owners to take stock in the actual cash value of the coach they own/want to trade and what a true cost structure should become on the new coach market. This is why after doing all the research that Lorene and I have done to date that we have not purchased a coach.
One final thought, as per my previous emails, the cost of repossession hurts us all and there are plenty of folks that find themselves so far upside down in the coach they currently own that many just walk away and let the bank/finance company have the coach back and that sure has a poor side effect on our ability to borrow/purchase a coach, new or used! We must work to reform the current system and force a more compliant and yes, profitable system for the dealers while controlling costs for the consumer! I would be glad to take a seat at a board of owner and dealers to help square away these issues!
Kevin Doukas
Yahoo Message Number: 7377 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7377)
Kevin,
Life is to short to get hung up on the system, if we all waited for the perfect price and coach we would still be at the starting gate. This is a life style decision not a money decision. If spending money bothers you don't buy a coach. My wife calls it the check book sucker but we both love it and money isn't everything.
Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998
Yahoo Message Number: 7381 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7381)
From: "Kevin Doukas" kdoukas@...>
I'd like to see a set price on motorhomes as there are on Lexuses (Lexi?) and Saturns. Anyway, on a different scale, we paid $52K for our old '00 31-ft Winnebago Minnie Winnie DL Class C against an MSRP of $70K. In that case, I think that a newbie visiting an RV dealership sales lot on a weekend, for example, might be scared away by the $70K window sticker, whereas the $52K actual sales price looks pretty attractive, especially when many cars and SUVS are in the same price neighborhood.
I know that when I told many non-RVers that our Minnie Winnie "only" cost $52K, they were shocked, and said they thought it cost around $80K. Little did they know ...
The manufacturers might be cutting off their proverbial noses to spite their faces.
On the other hand, I don't know if a newbie will be attracted by a more realistic $225K price on the window of a motorhome that now has an MSRP of $300K.
It's time for every industry to change in many ways. Heck, my brother is able to bring his VW Jetta in to the dealership for service late at night, rather than during the daytime when he works!
Dick (& Geri) Campagna
'98 36' Intrigue #10571
Mfd: 11/97
Yahoo Message Number: 7386 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7386)
Bill:
You are absolutely correct and that's why I need to make sure that we get the best deal possible. Lorene and I are in our mid 40's and have the expectations of needing more than one coach in our lifetime making the purchase of the first one of the up most importance. If you get hammered on he first one it becomes that much more difficult to purchase a second, third and even perhaps a forth coach.
I sure have no ax to grind with any dealer or his/her ability to make a profit, but, it sure does appear to us that they look at us as a "newbie" and "fresh meat".
The enjoyment aside, after the last couple of years in the stock market I need to watch every single penny, to the point that I have sold off a couple of my Ferrari's and we have moved into a smaller house to be able to afford this hobby. And If we're true to ourselves that is with this RV thing is to us at this time in our lives, a hobby. We hope to be able to join you all on the road at least 4-5 times a year and enjoy our purchase, but, I know myself and my type "a" personality and I would not enjoy the coach knowing that I paid too much and made a very poor decision, that old story a bout a fool and his money...... I feel this way because I clearly do not understand the proper technique to purchase a coach with a FAIR pricing structure, I'm not out to gauge ANY dealer or private party that we may purchase a coach through, just make a good and fair deal.
Judging by the amount of personal email that this thread has generated there are quite a few "newbies" in our position and a couple of seasoned veterans of the road as well, if you can give us any advise of help we would gladly accept it and hopefully on day return the favor, but, not understanding the market I might just as well set my money on fire and dump it in the fireplace....
Thanks in advance for your help and understanding!
Kevin and Lorene Doukas
04 Inspire buyers
Yahoo Message Number: 7387 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7387)
..see the inserted comments below in Dick's email
Kevin Doukas
This is my exact point the public is flying blind in these matters, the pricing can be all over the map!
Yes they are, how many more coaches would they sell if a fair pricing structure was put into place?
I can't speak for others but it would make us feel more comfortable in our purchase and we might even get it done sooner rather than later!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
Yahoo Message Number: 7390 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7390)
Bill G;
Good point, but it just seems to be a better bargaining position when you can printout online data and use it with the dealer.
Certainly there is no guaranty this data is cost or near cost, but , at least, it exposes the fiction of the posted list price.
Note: The moderator has requested we take this subject off line.
Sawbuck
2002 Magna Resort #6159
Yahoo Message Number: 7393 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7393)
Kevin, with all due respect, why dont you buy a used coach with a book value, dicker down as far as you can and then you will know you did not get screwed by some unscrupulous sales person? Maybe that would make your life simpler and after you have rvd for a time you could figure out the RV industry by being a part of it. Maybe youll find that you would rather put your money back into sports cars. Candace 2002 Affinity 6129
Yahoo Message Number: 7395 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7395)
Great comment Candace.
Yahoo Message Number: 7403 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7403)
Well, did Kevin get the new CC???
Ree
Full-Timin' 2003 Allure 30852 -- Back in Texas temporarily
Yahoo Message Number: 7404 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7404)
.....actually yes we have, I 'm in the process of custom ordering a CC Inspire from Bill KIpp at Buddy Gregg here in Dallas. There are a few changes that are being added to the coach by CC including wood cabinets where the ABS is up front in the drivers compartment and bigger tires/wheels...
I would NOT give you a PLUGGED nickel for the sales guy Larry, but, Bill Kipp is just a great guy. He has taken very good care of us and I believe will enhance our ownership of the CC Inspire...
Now all we have to do is be patient and wait until Feb. when our coach will arrive..... Happy Holidays to all!
Kevin Doukas
Yahoo Message Number: 7450 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/7450)
Hi Doug,
Yes I credit so the good service to Damonl; he seems to know how to work the system there. It could of also been that my coach was new too. Since I live in So. Calif., I probably won't have much service work done at Guaranty.
Rick,
2004 CC Allure 31018
P. S. Note to Group: I've only had two problems to date with my coach and they should have been discovered before the coach was delivered to me. They were:
Steering wheel was approx. 30 degrees off-center to the left.
Windshield wipers were in-properly aligned. Both windshield wipers assemblies were replaced.
I think I know why they were out of adjustment. When they put the 3M on the front of the coach the day before they deliver the coach, the 3M installer takes off the windshield wiper assemblies to apply the 3M coating and I believe he does not re-install the wiper assemblies correctly. I don't know about the steering wheel but you think someone would have noticed it.
I'll knock on wood now and hope I don't discover any more problems.