Country Coach Restoration, Repair & Parts Forums => Country Coach Archive => Topic started by: Larry F on December 16, 2004, 07:34:34 pm
Title: Wrong GCWR on data plate??
Post by: Larry F on December 16, 2004, 07:34:34 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 13645 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/13645)I believe that there was a -3000 lb error made when my Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) was calculated at the factory. The GCWR for my 2003 36' Allure is 40,200 lbs and my Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is 33,200 lbs. This leaves me a 7,000 towing capacity (40,200 ? 33,200). But, I have a 10,000lb hitch from the factory. I think (IMO) that my GCWR should be 43,200 lbs (GVWR of 33,200 + 10,000 lbs for towing). The drive-train consists of the Cummins ISL 370 HP, and the Allison 6 speed. Based on other coaches, both are capable of towing 10,000 lbs. I think that the 2003 Allure came standard with the 350 HP engine and a 7,000 lb hitch. Since my 370 HP engine and 10,000 hitch were an upgrade on this coach in 2003, I feel that the standard (wrong) spec numbers were carried over to my coach in error. I have expressed my theory to CC tech support via email and have asked them what limits me to a GCWR to 40,200 lbs. It's not the 10,000 lb hitch. It's not the engine or tranny. And it's not any extra weight loaded onto/into the chassis/coach. All I get from CC is to "?not exceed my GCWR." If my theory is correct, I would really like CC to verify the error and provide an updated data plate. If I'm wrong, I would like to understand why. I'm hoping someone here knows. Does anyone know of other 36' Allures with my drive train/hitch configuration that can tow 10,000 lbs? Any ideas how I can get CC to entertain my theory and remedy the situation? Thanks for any help in this matter
Larry F. 2003 Allure #30856
Title: Re: Wrong GCWR on data plate??
Post by: GLS9775@aol Com on December 16, 2004, 10:47:42 pm
We own a 36' 2002 Intrigue with 400hp ISL. The GCWR is 43,200 lbs.
Gary Stanton
Title: Re: Wrong GCWR on data plate??
Post by: George Sanders on December 20, 2004, 11:42:17 am
Yahoo Message Number: 13720 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/13720)Larry, my 2004 Allure with the 370 ISL has a GVWR or 33,200 and a GCWR of 40,200. I have the 10,000 pound hitch just like you.
I think the reason is that there is some other chassis component or system that limits the total to 40,200. I think that these rating limits on your coach are correct.
The way to look at it is as follows..... Keep actual weight of coach at or below 30,200 (not difficult with my 33 footer)
Tow 10,000 lb trailer for a total of 40,200 lbs.
In other words...you can save the weight in the coach and use it in the trailer.
The only problem now is what is the max hitch weight capacity. A 10,000 lb trailer needs to have at least 1,000 lbs on the hitch or it will not tow well. I don't know what that limit is on my hitch.
George in Birmingham, AL '04 Allure 31038
Quote from: Larry Feather
>
I believe that there was a -3000 lb error made when my Gross > Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) was calculated at the factory. The > GCWR for my 2003 36' Allure is 40,200 lbs and my Gross Vehicle > Weight Rating (GVWR) is 33,200 lbs. This leaves me a 7,000 towing > capacity (40,200 ? 33,200). But, I have a 10,000lb hitch from the > factory. I think (IMO) that my GCWR should be 43,200 lbs (GVWR of > 33,200 + 10,000 lbs for towing). The drive-train consists of the > Cummins ISL 370 HP, and the Allison 6 speed. Based on other > coaches, both are capable of towing 10,000 lbs. I think that the > 2003 Allure came standard with the 350 HP engine and a 7,000 lb > hitch. Since my 370 HP engine and 10,000 hitch were an upgrade on > this coach in 2003, I feel that the standard (wrong) spec numbers > were carried over to my coach in error. I have expressed my theory > to CC tech support via email and have asked them what limits me to
a
Quote
GCWR to 40,200 lbs. It's not the 10,000 lb hitch. It's not the > engine or tranny. And it's not any extra weight loaded onto/into > the chassis/coach. All I get from CC is to "?not exceed my
GCWR."
Quote
If my theory is correct, I would really like CC to verify the error > and provide an updated data plate. If I'm wrong, I would like to > understand why. I'm hoping someone here knows. Does anyone know
of
Title: Re: Wrong GCWR on data plate??
Post by: Jim Hughes on December 22, 2004, 08:05:13 am
Yahoo Message Number: 13783 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/13783)Could it be that the hitch is attached to a rail/chassis extension that is the limiting factor? I know some manufacturers attach extensions to the rear of the rails and the design is not rated for the same weight loads. Jim
2000 Allure #30511 w/7,000# hitch
Quote from: George Sanders
>
Larry, my 2004 Allure with the 370 ISL has a GVWR or 33,200 and a > GCWR of 40,200. I have the 10,000 pound hitch just like you.
I think the reason is that there is some other chassis component
or
Quote
system that limits the total to 40,200. I think that these rating > limits on your coach are correct.
The way to look at it is as follows.....
Keep actual weight of coach at or below 30,200 (not difficult with
my
Quote
33 footer)
Tow 10,000 lb trailer for a total of 40,200 lbs.
In other words...you can save the weight in the coach and use it
in
Quote
the trailer.
The only problem now is what is the max hitch weight capacity. A > 10,000 lb trailer needs to have at least 1,000 lbs on the hitch or
it
Quote
will not tow well. I don't know what that limit is on my hitch.
George in Birmingham, AL '04 Allure 31038
[quote author=Larry Feather"
>
> I believe that there was a -3000 lb error made when my Gross > > Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) was calculated at the factory.
The
Quote
GCWR for my 2003 36' Allure is 40,200 lbs and my Gross Vehicle > > Weight Rating (GVWR) is 33,200 lbs. This leaves me a 7,000
towing
Quote
capacity (40,200 ? 33,200). But, I have a 10,000lb hitch from
the
Quote
factory. I think (IMO) that my GCWR should be 43,200 lbs (GVWR
of
Quote
33,200 + 10,000 lbs for towing). The drive-train consists of
the
Quote
Cummins ISL 370 HP, and the Allison 6 speed. Based on other > > coaches, both are capable of towing 10,000 lbs. I think that
the
Quote
2003 Allure came standard with the 350 HP engine and a 7,000 lb > > hitch. Since my 370 HP engine and 10,000 hitch were an upgrade
on
Quote
this coach in 2003, I feel that the standard (wrong) spec
numbers
Quote
were carried over to my coach in error. I have expressed my
theory
Quote
to CC tech support via email and have asked them what limits me
to
Quote
a
> GCWR to 40,200 lbs. It's not the 10,000 lb hitch. It's not the > > engine or tranny. And it's not any extra weight loaded
onto/into
Quote
the chassis/coach. All I get from CC is to "?not exceed my > GCWR."
> If my theory is correct, I would really like CC to verify the
error
Quote
and provide an updated data plate. If I'm wrong, I would like
to
Quote
understand why. I'm hoping someone here knows. Does anyone
know
Quote
of
> other 36' Allures with my drive train/hitch configuration that
can
Quote
tow 10,000 lbs? Any ideas how I can get CC to entertain my
theory
Title: Re: Wrong GCWR on data plate??
Post by: Larry F on December 22, 2004, 12:17:22 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 13796 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/13796)Jim and George
Thanks for your inputs. After reading your posts, I'm thinking maybe there is something to it (other than an error). Maybe CC will confirm this via the email I sent them last week. Gee, I thought all 2004s could tow 10,000 lbs on top of the 33,300 GVWR. Well, I have about 3700 lbs CCC to play with and don't know if I'll ever need to tow 10,000, but it sure would be nice. George, embossed on my 10,000 lbs hitch it says 600lbs tong load. Thanks again.
Larry
2003 Allure #30856
Quote from: Jim Hughes
Could it be that the hitch is attached to a rail/chassis extension > that is the limiting factor? I know some manufacturers attach > extensions to the rear of the rails and the design is not rated for > the same weight loads.
Jim
2000 Allure #30511 w/7,000# hitch >
[quote author=George Sanders"
>
> Larry, my 2004 Allure with the 370 ISL has a GVWR or 33,200 and a > > GCWR of 40,200. I have the 10,000 pound hitch just like you. >
> I think the reason is that there is some other chassis component > or
> system that limits the total to 40,200. I think that these rating > > limits on your coach are correct. >
> The way to look at it is as follows..... >
> Keep actual weight of coach at or below 30,200 (not difficult
with
Quote
my > 33 footer) >
> Tow 10,000 lb trailer for a total of 40,200 lbs. >
> In other words...you can save the weight in the coach and use it > in
> the trailer. >
> The only problem now is what is the max hitch weight capacity. A > > 10,000 lb trailer needs to have at least 1,000 lbs on the hitch
or
Quote
it
> will not tow well. I don't know what that limit is on my hitch. >
> George in Birmingham, AL > '04 Allure 31038 > >
[quote author=Larry Feather" >] > >
> > I believe that there was a -3000 lb error made when my Gross > > > Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) was calculated at the factory. The
> > GCWR for my 2003 36' Allure is 40,200 lbs and my Gross Vehicle > > > Weight Rating (GVWR) is 33,200 lbs. This leaves me a 7,000 > towing
> > capacity (40,200 ? 33,200). But, I have a 10,000lb hitch from > the
> > factory. I think (IMO) that my GCWR should be 43,200 lbs (GVWR > of
> > 33,200 + 10,000 lbs for towing). The drive-train consists of > the
> > Cummins ISL 370 HP, and the Allison 6 speed. Based on other > > > coaches, both are capable of towing 10,000 lbs. I think that > the
> > 2003 Allure came standard with the 350 HP engine and a 7,000 lb > > > hitch. Since my 370 HP engine and 10,000 hitch were an upgrade > on
> > this coach in 2003, I feel that the standard (wrong) spec > numbers
> > were carried over to my coach in error. I have expressed my > theory
> > to CC tech support via email and have asked them what limits me > to > a
> > GCWR to 40,200 lbs. It's not the 10,000 lb hitch. It's not
the
Title: Re: Wrong GCWR on data plate?? (afterthought)
Post by: Larry F on December 22, 2004, 12:44:35 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 13803 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/13803)Jim, as an afterthought to your theory... " Could it be that the hitch is attached to a rail/chassis extension that is the limiting factor? I know some manufacturers attach extensions to the rear of the rails and the design is not rated for the same weight loads."
After thinking about what you said (above),that shouldn't matter in this instance because my rear rails are sturdy enough to tow the 10,000 lbs. Hence my 10,000lb hitch. IMHO, adding weight to the coach chassis itself should not specifically effect the tow capacity of the rear rails that my 10,000lb hitch is attached to. I can tow 10,000 lbs, as long as I don't exceed the GCWR. So what's stopping me (limiting factor) from loading more weight into the coach? The pulling capacity and the weight loaded into the coach, (lifting weight, so to speak), are totally independent of each other (IMHO). Look at it this way, per the data plate, I can load up the coach to 33,200 and tow 7,000. Or, I can load the coach to only 30,200 and tow 10,000. Either way, Ive got something maxed out in weight within the data plate limitations. What is the technical limitiation of maxing out both of them at the same time. If, my theory is correct about the tow and carrying weights being independent, then I should be able to tow and carry a total of 43,200 lbs. Thoughts?
Larry, 2003 Allure #30856
Quote
Jim
2000 Allure #30511 w/7,000# hitch >
[quote author=George Sanders"
>
> Larry, my 2004 Allure with the 370 ISL has a GVWR or 33,200 and a > > GCWR of 40,200. I have the 10,000 pound hitch just like you. >
> I think the reason is that there is some other chassis component > or
> system that limits the total to 40,200. I think that these rating > > limits on your coach are correct. >
> The way to look at it is as follows..... >
> Keep actual weight of coach at or below 30,200 (not difficult
with
Quote
my > 33 footer) >
> Tow 10,000 lb trailer for a total of 40,200 lbs. >
> In other words...you can save the weight in the coach and use it > in
> the trailer. >
> The only problem now is what is the max hitch weight capacity. A > > 10,000 lb trailer needs to have at least 1,000 lbs on the hitch
or
Quote
it
> will not tow well. I don't know what that limit is on my hitch. >
> George in Birmingham, AL > '04 Allure 31038 > >
[quote author=Larry Feather" >] > >
> > I believe that there was a -3000 lb error made when my Gross > > > Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) was calculated at the factory. The
> > GCWR for my 2003 36' Allure is 40,200 lbs and my Gross Vehicle > > > Weight Rating (GVWR) is 33,200 lbs. This leaves me a 7,000 > towing
> > capacity (40,200 ? 33,200). But, I have a 10,000lb hitch from > the
> > factory. I think (IMO) that my GCWR should be 43,200 lbs (GVWR > of
> > 33,200 + 10,000 lbs for towing). The drive-train consists of > the
> > Cummins ISL 370 HP, and the Allison 6 speed. Based on other > > > coaches, both are capable of towing 10,000 lbs. I think that > the
> > 2003 Allure came standard with the 350 HP engine and a 7,000 lb > > > hitch. Since my 370 HP engine and 10,000 hitch were an upgrade > on
> > this coach in 2003, I feel that the standard (wrong) spec > numbers
> > were carried over to my coach in error. I have expressed my > theory
> > to CC tech support via email and have asked them what limits me > to > a
> > GCWR to 40,200 lbs. It's not the 10,000 lb hitch. It's not
the
Title: Re: Wrong GCWR on data plate?? (afterthought)
Post by: George Sanders on December 22, 2004, 04:30:15 pm
Yahoo Message Number: 13816 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/13816)Larry, my thoughts are that this is a simple problem. You know the weight ratings on your coach. We can theorize all day about what the limiting factors are. But in the end.....the ratings are the ratings. Many people run their rigs beyond those ratings. You may want to do that. But my guess is that there is no way that CC is going to bless any changes to the chassis ratings.
Quote from: Larry Feather
>
Jim, as an afterthought to your theory...
" Could it be that the hitch is attached to a rail/chassis
extension
Quote
that is the limiting factor? I know some manufacturers attach > extensions to the rear of the rails and the design is not rated for > the same weight loads." > After thinking about what you said (above),that shouldn't matter in > this instance because my rear rails are sturdy enough to tow the > 10,000 lbs. Hence my 10,000lb hitch. IMHO, adding weight to the > coach chassis itself should not specifically effect the tow
capacity
Quote
of the rear rails that my 10,000lb hitch is attached to. I can tow > 10,000 lbs, as long as I don't exceed the GCWR. So what's stopping > me (limiting factor) from loading more weight into the coach? The > pulling capacity and the weight loaded into the coach, (lifting > weight, so to speak), are totally independent of each other (IMHO). Look at it this way, per the data plate, I can load up the coach to > 33,200 and tow 7,000. Or, I can load the coach to only 30,200 and > tow 10,000. Either way, Ive got something maxed out in weight
within
Quote
the data plate limitations. What is the technical limitiation of > maxing out both of them at the same time. If, my theory is correct > about the tow and carrying weights being independent, then I should > be able to tow and carry a total of 43,200 lbs. Thoughts? >
Larry, 2003 Allure #30856 > > Jim
> 2000 Allure #30511 w/7,000# hitch > > >
[quote author=George Sanders" >] > >
> > Larry, my 2004 Allure with the 370 ISL has a GVWR or 33,200 and
a
Quote
> GCWR of 40,200. I have the 10,000 pound hitch just like you. > >
> > I think the reason is that there is some other chassis
component
Quote
or
> > system that limits the total to 40,200. I think that these
rating
Quote
> limits on your coach are correct. > >
> > The way to look at it is as follows..... > >
> > Keep actual weight of coach at or below 30,200 (not difficult > with > my
> > 33 footer) > >
> > Tow 10,000 lb trailer for a total of 40,200 lbs. > >
> > In other words...you can save the weight in the coach and use
it
Quote
in > > the trailer. > >
> > The only problem now is what is the max hitch weight capacity.
A
Quote
> 10,000 lb trailer needs to have at least 1,000 lbs on the hitch > or > it
> > will not tow well. I don't know what that limit is on my hitch. > >
> > George in Birmingham, AL > > '04 Allure 31038 > > > >
[quote author=Larry Feather" > >] > > >
> > > I believe that there was a -3000 lb error made when my Gross > > > > Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) was calculated at the factory. > The
> > > GCWR for my 2003 36' Allure is 40,200 lbs and my Gross
Vehicle
Quote
> > Weight Rating (GVWR) is 33,200 lbs. This leaves me a 7,000 > > towing
> > > capacity (40,200 ? 33,200). But, I have a 10,000lb hitch
from
Quote
the
> > > factory. I think (IMO) that my GCWR should be 43,200 lbs
(GVWR
Quote
of
> > > 33,200 + 10,000 lbs for towing). The drive-train consists of > > the
> > > Cummins ISL 370 HP, and the Allison 6 speed. Based on other > > > > coaches, both are capable of towing 10,000 lbs. I think that > > the
> > > 2003 Allure came standard with the 350 HP engine and a 7,000
lb
Quote
> > hitch. Since my 370 HP engine and 10,000 hitch were an
upgrade
Quote
on
> > > this coach in 2003, I feel that the standard (wrong) spec > > numbers
> > > were carried over to my coach in error. I have expressed my > > theory
> > > to CC tech support via email and have asked them what limits
me
Quote
to > > a
> > > GCWR to 40,200 lbs. It's not the 10,000 lb hitch. It's not > the
> > > engine or tranny. And it's not any extra weight loaded > > onto/into
> > > the chassis/coach. All I get from CC is to "?not exceed my > > > GCWR."
> > > If my theory is correct, I would really like CC to verify the > > error
> > > and provide an updated data plate. If I'm wrong, I would
like
Quote
to
> > > understand why. I'm hoping someone here knows. Does anyone > > know > > of
> > > other 36' Allures with my drive train/hitch configuration