Yahoo Message Number: 21111 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21111)
Overloaded the microwave circuit with an extra heater and tripped the inverter. It reset but power did not return. The generator runs everything normally. When the inverter is turned on to run off the batteries that restores everything, but it appears that everything is now running off the batteries. Have tried reseting everything I know about, the surge protector shows not faults. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks for your help. John 2002 Allure
30702
Yahoo Message Number: 21115 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21115)
You are saying that everything works when the generater is running, but only 12v stuff works when the generator is not running?
In that case, you might have blown the input fuse to the inverter. In my coach it is a huge fuze (300A?) mounted on the wall right next to the inverter (in the cable from the battery to the inverter).
John 04 Inspire 51078
Yahoo Message Number: 21116 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21116)
John:
I have had a similar problem. In fact I was curious why the inverter circuit breaker tripped and not the one labeled microwave. Anyway, discussions with CC revealed that some circuit breakers are set up in a series configuration hence, the inverter possibly being the first one in line will trip. If you take a look at the 110v wiring diagrams, there are some interesting daisy chain connections.
Now, I get to what might be an answer to your question -- check/reset all the circuit breakers because another one (you wouldn't expect) might have tripped.
Chuck Penque
03 Intrigue 11673
Yahoo Message Number: 21117 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21117)
I tried to reset all the breakers, the inverter hums, has a 20 amp breaker on the side that doesn't seem to do anything. It appears there is something between the 220 outside plug and the inverter.
Have turned the surge protector off and on, nothing seems to help. It may have fried the inverter internally. Thanks for your help. John
Yahoo Message Number: 21118 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21118)
I can't find a large fuse to the inverter, there is power in the unit, atleast in hums. Thanks for the help. John
Yahoo Message Number: 21121 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21121)
My breaker was in door of bay with propane tank. Undo cover and there is a breaker there. I set it off by using to vacuums in the coash.
Yahoo Message Number: 21122 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21122)
Thanks for all your help, finally found the 300 amp fuse, inside the inverter cabinet with a plastic tube over it. My meter found continuity on both sides, so it looks like the inverter is bad. The hot water, refrigerator, etc. all work as they don't go through the inverter according to the schematic. The batter meter above the door is dropping so it looks like the charging side of the inventor is bad.
John
2002 Allure
30702
Yahoo Message Number: 21123 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21123)
John in my reply I forgot my name James Spivey and 03 allure. The breaker I am referring to is on the inverter as I mentioned, wants to be next or as close to AGM batteries as possible.
Yahoo Message Number: 21126 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21126)
John:
I have had a similar problem. In fact I was curious why the inverter circuit breaker tripped and not the one labeled microwave. Anyway, discussions with CC revealed that some circuit breakers are set up in a series configuration hence, the inverter possibly being the first one in line will trip. If you take a look at the 110v wiring diagrams, there are some interesting daisy chain connections.
Now, I get to what might be an answer to your question -- check/reset all the circuit breakers because another one (you wouldn't expect) might have tripped.
Chuck Penque
03 Intrigue 11673
Yahoo Message Number: 21129 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21129)
I have reset everyone that I can find and still no luck. Thanks for the help. John
Yahoo Message Number: 21133 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21133)
John,
Have you tried a voltage (field) sensor.
I have one called AC-detective by GREENLEE. You can start from a know hot point and work your way back up.
Just a stab in the dark.
Russ
05 Intrigue 11883
Yahoo Message Number: 21134 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21134)
I wish I had an AC finder, great idea, the trouble with living on the Oregon coast is finding most things. Thanks for your help. John
Yahoo Message Number: 21136 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21136)
Not sure if your Allure is the same as my 2000. I have a Freedom 2000 inverter and the PowerTech 8KW generator. The inverter has two 15Amp circuit breakers and the generator has two 35Amp breakers. The 120VAC outlet circuits in the coach are are split. The outlet the microwave/convection oven is plugged into is on one of the 15Amp inverter circuit breakers and all the other outlets in the coach are on the other 15Amp circuit breaker.
I assume your small heaters are rated at about 1500watts each. When you calculate the load (watts/voltage=amps), you have 12.5amps load for each of the heaters at 120volts. If your voltage does not stay steady and drops, then the load will go up (1500w/100vac=15amps). Now when you add another heater drawing 12.5amps on the same 15amp circuit, the circuit breaker rating is exceeded and it is going to trip.
Jim Hughes
2000 Allure #30511
Yahoo Message Number: 21139 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21139)
Keep in mind there are 2 sources of power to the inverter. 120 volts from the power cord or generator, to charge the batteries/provide 12 volts, and 12 volts from the batteries, to provide 120 when no 120 is available. Are you sure you have the 12v? To find out for sure, disconnect the power cord/turn off the generator, and then use a volt meter to check the voltage going into the inverter. If its not 12 volts, then there is some kind of break between the battery and the inverter (or the batteries are not charged).
Trace the big wire from the battery to the inverter to find the fuse.
Or find that there is no fuse in your coach.
John 04 Inspire 51078
Yahoo Message Number: 21140 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21140)
Be careful; it is very unlikely it is really a 220 plug. Most RVs which have those 4 pin plugs are actually 2 110 circuits out of phase. That 'center' return wire is critical; if you don't provide that path, you run the risk of frying the electric components of your unit.
John 04 Inspire 51078
Yahoo Message Number: 21141 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21141)
Home Depot and Lowes both carry Greenlee. Possibly Radio Shack might have something. And there is always the internet...
John 04 Inspire 51078
Yahoo Message Number: 21143 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21143)
To check continuity of a fuse, you must remove it from the system. If you don't it will check out "good" because the meter will find another path. If the fuse leads to the batteries, you may be able to check it by setting the meter to volts DC and reading the voltage supplied by the batteries.
Everett 10758 99 Intrigue
Yahoo Message Number: 21144 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21144)
Disconnecting one side of the fuse is the most definative way, but simply checking for voltage drop across the fuse is a good first test.
If no voltage drop is seen, either the fuse is good, or there is no current in the circuit at that time ... you haven't proven anything.
But ...
If there is a voltage drop seen across the fuse, then the fuse is bad.
This advice only meens something if the the fuse is hard wired and a pain to remove.
I wonder if the main 12v power should be turned off also before disconecing the fuse ... not sure what arcing and subsequent voltage transcients would do.
John and Terry
2005 Affinity
Yahoo Message Number: 21146 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21146)
Hi Folks,
I am very concerned by the honest but misleading information being bantered around. The 300A fuse is a dangerous component to work around especially if you haven't had personal experience with troubleshooting or replacement. The simple fact is that if the the inverter provides 120vac to the microwave and other outlets then the fuse is OK. As past posts have provided by this group, the inverter's circuit board interconnects are the prime suspect. A simple voltage measurement at the fuse with shore and generator power removed will indicate whether voltage is available to the inverter.
Fred Kovol
Yahoo Message Number: 21147 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21147)
I finally found the problem, thanks to all your help. It turns out the 120 circuit breaker marked Invetrix was bad. It reset normally when everything first went dead. Thinking that if the microwave tripped it, that must be the microwave circuit. The microwave worked ok when the inverter was turned on over the entry door. The suggestion to find an AC identifier had me using my voltage meter everywhere possible and discovered no power through the 30 Amp breaker. Connected it up to one of my 20 Amp breakers and everything returned to normal. Charging the batteries returned as well.
Purchased a 30 Amp new breaker, Cutler Hammer, same as the defective one and it is now installed working fine with full power restored.
The feel on resetting the defective breaker and the new one is no different. It is the first time I have found a bad breaker that appeared to reset normally. Your help probably saved a very pricy service call for less than $6.00. The help provided by this group exceeds any that exists. Being an old engineer, the cautions expressed around the 300 Amp fuse link was well taken. My worst experience was being hit with 550 Volts, it didn't kill me, but could of. In case any of you are on the Oregon Coast visiting Yachats, we are living in the driveway of our 4 level monolithic dome that is still under construction. Installed the elevator last week, still have about five months left. It has largest garage around, 1800 square feet for coach, cars and shop. Thanks and best wishes to all.
John 2002 Allure
#30702
Yahoo Message Number: 21150 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21150)
All 50 amp plugs have 220 volts potential across the hots. No motorhome uses the power as 220 volts, they utilize the power as two seperate 120 volt sources.
The reason the 220 volts is there is because there is only one neutral, due to the phase shift between the hots (120 degrees ) the neutral will never see more than 50 amps. If the two hots were both the same phase then the neutral could potentially see 100 amps.
ddtuttle
2000 Allure #30443
Yahoo Message Number: 21152 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21152)
Hi Folks,
I would like to differ with the explaination below - the conclusion is right but for the wrong reason. First, the 240 vac, 120vac each leg, is single phase with no difference in their timing. For 3 phase, there is a 120 deg phase shift between each of the 3 legs which can be wired as a delta or wye and have 3 or four wire connections plus a safety ground (the green wire). It is true that the neutral (return, white wire) will only have 50 amps max as only the difference in current between the two 120 vac legs is carried in the neutral. Examples: one leg carrying 50 amps, the other 0 amps, neutral carries 50 amps; each leg carries 50 amps, neutral carries 0 amps; one leg carries 50 amps and the other 25 amps, neutral carries 25 amps. We have "50 amp service" but capable of carrying 100 amps.
Fred Kovol
Yahoo Message Number: 21157 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21157)
By the way, its not the amount of voltage which can kill. That spark of static electricity which zaps you is probably well over 10,000 volts. It's current that's the killer, even as little as a few 10ths of an amp...
It's using your body to bridge a voltage so that current (always equal to the voltage divided by resistance) flows across your chest, ie hand to hand, or more commonly hand to foot. Beware of the high current source which can support its voltage across your body long enough for the current to do its damage.
John 04 Inspire 51078
Yahoo Message Number: 21159 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21159)
Fred
Almost right I think.
For the measurement of phase we must have a common reference so lets say we have leg A and Leg B with a common of C. The AC voltage from A to C and B to C is 120 volts. and A to B leg is 240 volts ( a - 120 to a + 120). The phase A to C and B to C ( C being the common point) would then be 180 deg from each other. Thus 240 Volts from A to B. Now current would be 0 with balanced loads on leg A and B, assuming that we had only resistive loads. If the loads become un-balanced then because of the 180 deg the currents would subtract in the common. As you said if the current in A is 50 and B is 0 then 50-0 = 50.
Help Me if I have it all wrong
Marv Swenson
Intrigue 01 # 11314
Yahoo Message Number: 21170 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21170)
due to the phase shift between the hots (120 degrees ) the
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
120 should be 180 degrees. Phase difference is 1 half sine wave = 180 degrees. Usually the 240 VAC is from one transformer winding with center tap grounded, so ends of winding are exactly opposite in phase. Yes, the neutral must only see difference in currents on legs, or we would have to have much larger neutral lead & much larger plugs.
I have been in park with 120 on both legs in phase. The coach protective systems reacted as if only 30 amps 120 VAC was available.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yahoo Message Number: 21174 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21174)
Hi Folks,
The issue I see is the use of terms.
The shore or generator power is single phase that our coaches connect to. Single phase, 2 phase, 3 phase generation is associated with the generation, transmission and use of electrical energy. Phase is the term for the time delay from one voltage leg to the next.
Shore power comes from a transformer with 2 secondary windings connected such that one winding is reverse connected with respect to the other. The generator has an equivalent connection. The 60 hertz (cycles per second) sine wave voltage (positive magnitude for one half cycle and then negative magnitude for the other half cycle) from each winding is opposite in magnitude (180 degree phase shift). So while one leg is going positive the other leg is going negative. But this is not 2 phase - two phase power generation has a 90 degree phase shift between the 2 voltage legs.
Phase and phase shift have to be used carefully.
It was correctly stated that the two leg currents cancel through the neutral for resistive loads.
For inductive loads (motors) and capacitive loads (some electronics) there is a phase shift between the voltage and current - lags or leads when looking at their respective waveshapes with an oscilloscope.
Then what results is called circulating current through the neutral which is added to the resistive current. Since most loads are inductive, the power company connects high voltage capacitors usually just before the step down transformer to reduce the circulating current. This reduces the amount of energy that must be generated.
Re:Alternating Current Machinery, L.V.Bewley, Macmillan Co, NY, 1949 Fred Kovol
Yahoo Message Number: 21177 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21177)
Thanks for the help with the terms You did a good job.
Your right it is single phase.
I thought that folk Also should under stand the relative voltage swing as to NEVER try to parallel the two. Oh yes by the way the arching tha we might experience in relays. switches ect. in 120 and 240 ac circuits including our bodies are subject to the Peak to peak voltage not the average. Again I may not have this right but I think the peak to peak for 240 average goes like this: 240 x 1.414 x 2 = 678 volts P TO P Any way enough of that.
Thank again for the clarification on the subject.
Marv
01 Intrigue 11314
Yahoo Message Number: 21184 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21184)
I will change the subject on this one since I am a little off of the original topic. I recently had a 50 amp RV panel installed at my home. How would I check the "phase shift" to make sure it was installed correctly. Is there an easy way to do this?
Thanks
Kevin
05 intrigue
11886
Yahoo Message Number: 21186 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21186)
It's 240 x sq root of 2 = 339.41 vac peak to peak or half of the number you quoted.
Yahoo Message Number: 21187 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21187)
Hi Kevin,
Measure the voltage between the two circuit breakers at either the line or load side - if it measures 240 vac you are OK, if it measures 0 vac than you have a problem. Electrical contractors should have done it correctly.
Fred Kovol
Yahoo Message Number: 21188 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21188)
If the circuit breaker is a two pole breaker it will be ok because each hot wire will by design be coming from opposite lugs on the panel.
Just keep it simple...
Jim & Linda
2000 Allure
Yahoo Message Number: 21189 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21189)
Fred,
Is it possible to check the wiring with a multimeter at the plug on both the 30 amp and the 50amp receptacles without pulling the front of the box off and checking the circuit breakers? Just curious?
Kevin
05 intrigue
11886
Yahoo Message Number: 21190 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21190)
Hi Kevin,
Yes you can - on the 50 amp socket there are four openings, the two outer most slots should measure 240 vac between them, either outer slot and the center slot should measure 120 vac, the fouth is round (the safety ground) should measure 120 vac to either of the outer slots. If there is 0 vac between the 2 outer slots and 120 vac between an outer slot and the center slot, then there maybe only 50 amps available instead of 100 amps, depending on how it was miswired. On the 30 amp socket, only 120 vac is available, with the right angle slot being the safety ground. So there should be 120 vac from the hot to the return and from the hot to the safety ground - not sure which angled slot is the hot.
Fred Kovol
Yahoo Message Number: 21191 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21191)
You are tight
marv
Yahoo Message Number: 21193 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Country-Coach-Owners/conversations/messages/21193)
Your right Fred
Thanks
Marv