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Float On This!

Yahoo Message Number: 82538
Hi Again,

Mr. Fix It was a bit disgruntled over the $150 tank level switch with the cheap plastic float that deteriorated in the 190F propylene glycol heat transfer solution in the Hydro-Hot. (Lee, I'm not sure if this is a run on sentence? ) That article is chronicled
here:

http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=107#Post107 My goal is to make a brass float for the level switch to solve this problem. I ordered some primitive brass shapes from Hobbylinc which look perfect. Converting the kitchen table to a work bench, I got the parts cut, aligned and soldered together. See here:

http://muniac.smugmug.com/photos/swfpopup.mg?AlbumID=25511357&AlbumKey=nwFqdK I ran into a snag with the magnet, however. The neodymium magnets I planned on using are way too strong and lose their magnetism at 175F. What I need is Alnico 5 so I ordered a few from Digikey. They should be here next week. When I get the float finished I'll take some close up shots.

The balance of the brass float is different and its magnetic flux and distance from the reed switch needs to be correct for it to work. Given I'm in uncharted waters with this, there are a few dead ends I need to work around before getting it all together. I'll write this one up when all the wrinkles are worked out. If it goes bust, well everyday can't be a great day! A float assembly like the one I'm building can be easily installed in a failed switch. Of course, you could just keep buying them for $150/ea if that's what floats your boat. Safe travels!

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: Float On This!

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82541
On my aqua hot system, I was not going to keep purchasing the low tank level cutoff switch, so I disconnected the two wires from the eledtronic controller and inserted a jumper cable to the two terminals. Like most motorhome owners we are always checking our fluid levels, so before I use my aqua hot system I make sure that the tank and overflow are at proper levels.
JR 2006 Allure 430 #31317

Re: Float On This!

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82543
JR - I can't endorse defeating a safety system. That said, I too have put a jumper in the switch circuit only for a short period of time to get a replacement switch installed. On my system, I've observed cheap plastic unions connecting lengths of heater hose. Also a cheap plastic tank drain connection was used. If any of these fail whilst you're out and about the tank is going to drain quickly. The Webasto burner has an over temperature switch in there but you risk over heating the tank before that switch shuts the burner off. A risk not worth taking IMHO. All I can add is please be careful.

At 10:25 AM 9/22/2012, you wrote:

Re: Float On This!

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82545
My Hurricane hydronic furnace does not have a float switch. We just make sure the reservoir stays full.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: Float On This!

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82552
George - Actually not. Take a close look at the float assembly......

At 01:28 PM 9/22/2012, you wrote:

Re: Float On This!

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82561
Larry - Plastic isn't a bad material providing it's selected properly for the intended service. Polypropylene makes an excellent tank material, for example. Teflon coated pans are big improvements over SS and cast iron skillets. When the wrong plastic formulation is arbitrarily selected because it's a cheap alternative then problems ensue. I'm not familiar with the Hurricane unit owing to our vehicle being equipped with the Hydro-Hot system. We're all doing the best we can with what we've got. Travel safe!

At 10:04 PM 9/22/2012, you wrote:

Re: Float On This!

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82597
There is now an upgrade to the brass float which as I remember has no moving parts. I have it in my storage bay for when the original plastic one goes bad. My original plastic float is still functioning but you guys scared me into thinking it was going to go any time. We must have better water up here in Montana.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348

Re: Float On This!

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82598
All

I can't help but wonder why some people seem to have so much trouble with their hyro-hot system. The system as designed has a lot of weaknesses but once you upgrade those items and perform regular maintenance I have found it to be rather trouble free. I do run it a lot and I understand that this is beneficial.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348

Re: Float On This!

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82606
Dan - We too had the plastic switch. It went south and I replaced it with another plastic switch. How stupid of me! That too went south. Wangled a brass one from Hydro-Hot back in the day when they answered their phone. The plastic float in that brass switch busted. Bought another switch (brass one) for $150 which has a plastic float. It too will fail again. Exclusive of labor, I've consumed about $350 worth of switches. And with no end in sight.
Lesson learned.......... Cheap plastic doesn't do well immersed in propylene glycol at 190F. I know this from 3 plastic floats and a plastic impeller (dope on that is here: http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108#Post108 ) I'm not familiar with a level switch with no moving parts. How does it sense fluid level?
BTW: The float isn't in contact with your potable water. Also our Hydro-Hot system has been running constantly since Aug of 2007. Oh yes, Montana is on our list of places to visit.

At 06:00 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:

Re: Float On This!

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82607
Dan - This is a very good question. Since an entire after market site has been devoted to Hydro-Hot units and that to include a blog people have issues. Apparently enough of them for an entire business to survive. I just chronicle what things I've had hands on experience with. And there have been plenty. I take pictures, give opinions, offer solutions and try to document factual information in my articles. I hope it helps a few folks out there. These are real issues from a typical F/T bus owner/operator. If one knows certain parts are going to crap out then a proactive approach with maintenance would help avoid inopportune break downs.
My beef is that after one spends $8k on this option it's reasonable to expect having some freedom from replacing cheap parts one after another. It's also reasonable to expect quality. In the instances I've documented, proper design and/or quality just hasn't been there. And it has nothing to do with being on wheels. So what's the answer?? Just drive into your local shop, roll over and continue to write checks and incur the inconveniences that go along with this experience. I think the industry needs to do better. And I think it can and will over time, if the economics force their hands to understand that their customers know better. And that their customers will look deeper into their purchase. As a community, I think we need to become a watchdog for this industry. In many ways this news group functions as exactly that. When the cat is visible you'd be surprised at how careful the mice will be.
As for my Hydro-Hot, below is the laundry list of things I've dealt with:

1) Tank level switch #1
2) Electric heating element over temperature switch
3) Multiple burner .035" nozzles
4) Webasto control box
5) Drain plumbing
6) Overflow tubing
7) Webasto turbine motor
8) Webasto turbine motor coupling
9) Adjust air mixture for 6K feet altitude
10) Anti-scald valve
11) Tank level switch #2
12) Stir pump

13) Various radiator caps
14) Tank level switch #3
15) Fuel filter

Not all are indicative of quality issues. Some are just routine maintenance items expected on just about any piece of gear. The goal here isn't to launch a rebellion, slam anyone or become drunk with power. It's all about effecting positive change as customers. Providing some constructive feedback is a good place to start. Make people aware of what's going on. Staying in touch with your equipment is a great idea too. Also understand what the industry needs to do to design something and meet requirements at a given price point. Both sides of the cash register count. In short, we all need to work together towards maintaining quality, safety, good service and improving the products we depend on. And we need to do it in ways that allow providers to earn an honest living. A business that can't turn a profit ceases to exist. Less BS and more truth will certainly help everyone IMHO. Now let me get back to that $9.99/mth comprehensive health care package I'd like to offer the group.

At 06:11 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:

Re: Float On This!

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82638
Scott

Roger Berke has it on his web site. It is called a fluid level sensor for the very reasonable price of $260. I don't know how it senses and have not installed it because my original float switch has not gone out on me YET. I have replaced a number of the parts that were plastic and upgraded some of the wires but I just did because I don't like things that don't work and the consensus was that it is only a matter of time.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348

Re: Float On This!

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82639
Dan - Thanks for the information and follow up. I think there is a much more cost effective solution to this problem. My tinkering is intended to verify this. As for the original brass switch (a bargain @ $150), the proximity reed switch, stem, sealant, wires, cradle and fitting are all perfectly fine. It's the plastic float that became brittle and broke. Why throw out a $150 part because a $0.10 piece crapped out?? The magnets are due in tomorrow (Thr) so I'll be able to complete this little tabletop project soon. Photos and a write-up will be forth coming.
If I had to estimate the switch's life, I'd say between 2-3 years when immersed constantly in propylene glycol at 190F. Those shutting down their bus seasonally would get more elapse time out of the switch. Your bus and mine are perhaps a day apart. I'd imagine you'll go through what I did at some point. Knock on wood...... My Hydro-Hot is working reasonably well as of late. I'm in between repairs as they say. Safe travels.!

At 05:17 AM 9/26/2012, you wrote:

Float On This!

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82553
Quote
Quote
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 21:33:06 -0700 To: John Beach
From: Scott

Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Float On This!
John - Read my bit on this. I too had the plastic switch and replaced it with the brass one. As previously mentioned, the float assembly isn't brass it's cheap plastic. That part is what failed. The devil is in the details folks!

At 01:33 PM 9/22/2012, you wrote:

Quote
Scott:

HydroHot makes a brass float switch, I had one installed 2 years ago after the plastic one failed..

John Beach

06 Allure 31309
 

Float On This!

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 82613
Quote
Quote
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:56:39 -0700 To: "Jon"
From: Scott

Subject: RE: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Float On This!

Jon,

That's interesting you've had freeze ups. We've just completed 3 full winter seasons in Park City with lows around -24F and nothing froze on our bus. I wrote a two part article on surviving winter here: http://www.muniac.com/Winter_P1.html I guess you could solve freezing by added more heat or perhaps adding more insulation. We needed to do both.
I think there are a good number of after market businesses out there started by enterprising folks serving niche markets. The Economist wrote an article on this several issues ago claiming that globally small dedicated businesses have been showing very strong growth. Global networking has helped them. Let's hope the economy turns around and more can come on line. You'd need to be located in one spot, maintain an inventory, maintain commercial space, deal with marketing, employees, fulfillment and all the challenges associated with running a business. Both Jeannie and I put in a collective 80 years into the job market. That to include corporate and small business America. At this point in the game we're done with that part of our lives. No complaints, it was just time to move onward.
You get to a point in life where you endeavor to put something back into the system, provide some assistance and enjoy doing a good deed without being on the take or asking for someone's bread. It's called community. The internet started back with academia as a resource for sharing information among academics. Since then it has gone commercial and grown in ways no one could have predicted. I still think the essence of sharing information is a laudable goal. The "little fish" now has this resource available 24x7. Let's continue to find ways to put it to good use. From one inexperienced bus owner, one specific vehicle and 4 years full timing I'm not the guy to spearhead a commercial RV business venture. Perhaps someone else is up to that task.
I'll continue to chronicle the experiences I have, take some photos, offer opinions, publish bits, try to help and explain what has worked for me. Hopefully a few avoid some pitfalls by reading and maybe, on a good day, more than a few. I've gotten some very nice emails from people whose thanks is enough.
In spite of issues (and there are always issues) we are enjoying this lifestyle and are comfortable in this bus. Given the opportunity I'm not sure we'd pick another bus. Both of us enjoy the outdoors and exploring remote places in unique ways. Without this vehicle none of that wouldn't be possible. We look forward to more seasons of safe travel, reasonable comfort and good health. As a tinkerer by nature, I'll try to tweak out improvements and poke some fun at the ridiculous. I've got a good one brewing with our Advantium Oven. Food, music and humor are still some of the best things in life. Stay tuned!

At 10:55 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:

Quote
Hi Scott,

You could criticize every OEM part on the Country Coach line.
My Idea would be to the 3000 of us that is on this board to put our resources(money) together and start an RV parts business. This would include coming up with alternative fix means. I was actually looking for a pump like this that I could put on my hot water heater to circulate water through my kitchen slide to prevent freeze ups. Somewhat akin to the whole house circulators that have instant hot water at all the faucets so that you don't waste gallons of water waiting for hot.

So if we could raise $1000 from at least 1000 members of the group, it would be a good start. That will be 1000 members of an LLC that would promote the parts warehouse to hundreds of campgrounds around the country. What do you think?

Jon Baum

Magna 2K 5923
Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html