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Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #25 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40526
Hey George (and anyone else who is still hanging with us),
Thanks for your response. It is nice to know that someone else is as curious to know everything as I am. Most people call us mechanical fanatics. Anyway, here are a few additional thoughts on the water subject to feed your insatiable thirst for knowledge. Er..uh..if not knowledge, then at least some opinions for you to ponder:

1. Using soft water to wash. I have soft water at home but, my community assoc. frowns on driveway washing. The last time I washed with my house soft water was years ago. As I recall, the salt did not form large crystals but only small whitish stains where droplets were allowed to dry. These stains were not as bad as the calcium and magnesium left behind by hard water. Nonetheless, they were visible. Therefore I was going to try Lee Zabrowski's suggested procedure of filling my tank at home with soft water. Then, taking my coach down to our designated community washing bay, pressure washing with soft water, then rinsing with soft water, then chasing with dishwashing surfactant (Cascade, Jet Dry, etc) injected into the final rinse water. However, I am waiting to hear the answer from Lee to a few questions that I posted on the forum so that I can duplicate his procedure properly. He said It works for him. It sounds logical because the surfactant should cause the water to "sheet" instead of forming those problematic droplets. He said that it works for him. Once I get his response to my questions and I am clear on the right way to do this, I will try it and report on the results.

2. Possibility of corrosion. I agree with Lee on this. To experience severe corrosion, you would have to expose bare ferrous surfaces to a much more concentrated salt spray over an extended period. A useful example would be the wet winter salt found on on the highways in the Midwest where I lived for the first 30 years of my life. That concentrated salt and snow slush made some metal car parts look like Spanish Lace! BTW, at the General Motors test labs we had a test to determine the life expectancy of parts. It was called a CASS test. This was an acronym for calcium, acid, salt spray and it is a very severe test environment.

3. Reverse Osmosis rinse. I tried an RO rinse on my car recently. My home RO water storage canister holds only about 1.4 Gallons. So, I almost exhausted my supply by tapping off a gallon of RO into a clean plastic garden chemical sprayer. I took my car down to the washing area, washed and rinsed with hard tap water then, I sprayed the whole car with RO and let it dry. It worked very well except that one gallon was not quite enough to thoroughly rinse off all of the hard water. This would probably only be enough to do the front end of my coach! This is not practical for most of us who have the limited capacity of common household RO systems. Water wasted to produce RO is also a consideration per Dave Trotter's recent comment. One thing Dave did not consider is that all of the water that we buy in jugs or bottles is produced by commercial reverse osmosis equipment. I do not know if their off fall goes to the storm drains or elswhere. Hopefully, it is going into re-cycled water use like golf course irrigation. (Whoops! Another subject just got added to my research list.)
4. Portable water softener effectiveness and longevity of charge. Someone in this forum commented that the size of the water softener and consequent capacity of softening beads determines the gallons of soft water production between re-charges. This is correct. The home type softeners have a very large capacity to maximize output between charges and to store salt. Of course, we do not have the luxury of the space and weight of these large, cumbersome units. The Water Stick has a smaller capacity than some of the other more expensive portables and therefore would need re-charging more often. So, the choice it is a matter size convenience, price and the perceived inconvenience of re-charge frequency. The one other factor would be the hardness of the water in your most frequent or favorite camping locations. This information is usually available on line if the water is supplied by a municipality. However, if it is well water, reliable hardness information is more difficult to find. A hardness test kit would tell you if you really want to know. You may want a kit anyway to determine if your softener needs to be re-charged. You are probably already aware of the fact that the most notoriously hard water is in the Southwestern states.

5. Water Stick De-Ionizer. You mentioned the Water Stick de-ionizer "stick" shown in their web site. This seems to be a compromise between the Mr. Clean @$20 and the "Spotless" from Costco. I have not heard any comments about the effectiveness of the Water Stick DI gadget. BTW you said the Costco web site called out a price of $369. The same item is in stock at our local Costco store in San Juan Capistrano, CA @$300. Anyway, the Water Stick DI may be a subject for future investigation.

6. Ordinary filters. I am pretty sure that everyone knows that the "whole house" filter only stops relatively big chunks of stuff. It does not purify. It only filters sand and other sediment before it enters the coach plumping system. Under sink filters make the water taste and smell better but all of the dissolved solids pass through.

Well, as I warned you before, this subject is huge! I probably have not exhausted the issues but, Iam exhausted.... for now.

Daron, 98 Allure #30226

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #26 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40527
I was told the more membranes you put in the less waste water you have is this true?

Al 03 Magna

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #27 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40532
Al,

It has been my experience that the shorter the question... the longer the answer.
I have never heard this notion. But, lets examine it. If two membranes are hooked up in parallel with enough pressure you may get more production of purified water but twice the off fall. You could accomplish that by using a larger membrane and/or higher pressure. Example: Cruise ship desalinators that produce fresh water from ocean salt water. If you try to mount two membranes in series there would not be enough pressure to produce anything from the second unit unless there is an in line pump. Also, since the second unit would be receiving highly concentrated "junk" water it would have to work harder to produce less. It would also deteriorate much sooner than the primary membrane due to its exposure to the very hard "junk" water.
I can not make any sense of this. I would be curious to hear the response to my comments from your source(s). I might be missing something here. Please let me know.
BTW the membrane is just a long tube of a special acetate material that is flattened and tightly rolled up. Pressurized water is introduced at one end of the tube. The pure water passes through the membrane surface and is collected. The now concentrated "junk" water is ejected very slowly at the other end of the tube into the drain in the form of a dribble.

Daron 98 Allure #30226

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #28 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40534
Hey Daron, sorry for the slow response. We just got home after putting our first 2,500 miles on the Intrigue - Junction City> Olympic Peninsula> Seattle> Moab> Branson.
Here is the detail on my washing procedure. Again I find it works very well with minimal cost and time. I have had the Karcher 240D pressure washer for years, even before we got into RVing - a good product. I checked one web site selling Karcher and didn't see it so maybe it's an out-of-date model - electric, 1,400 PSI pressure, reservoir tank for mixing solutions that add to spray, 2 spray heads (cleaning contrete/wood; washing wand), small and light enough for ther rig. I soften my water on the road with a rechargable On-The-Go small tank softener, which will soften 300 gallons or so on one charge using 1 lbs. table salt. The Karcher washing wand has 2 setting both with soft sprays - one to rinse, the other to spray on the dilute reservoir solution.

Tools -

* Soft water for best results. (I use an On-The-Go, @ CW for $248 on sale - looks like a blue scuba tank) You'll use 10-15 gallons max for the whole job)
* Pressure washer (low pressure setting). The coach pump will be fine.

* Auto body washing liquid (any brand, tablespoon per gallon) * Two 5 foot threaded handles

* Fuller Brush washing brush (Vehicle Wash Brush Replacement Head #227. Soft bristle, 10"? wide, less than half the price as at the fancy auto cleaner outfits, about $10) * Fuller Brush Squeegee (actually a "concrete cleaner"? dual function brush on one side, foam squeegee on the other, the 14"? foam squeegee is awesome for taking off water, also conforms to many curves, like the side of the windshield, couldn't come up with a number, about $15). This tool is a gem! * Cascade Crystal Clear Rinse Agent (buy anywhere, teaspoon per ½ gallon in pressure washer reservoir) * Foot wide rectangular container/bucket for soap solution * On-board step stool as necessary

At Home -

Spray a section with water to wet; wash with FB washing brush/soap solution. Rinse with water, rinse with diluted Cascade in pressure washer; rinse with water. Squeegee. If you do all the brush/squeegee work and a partner does the spraying/rinsing it will take less than an hour. Windows and mirrors will need hand cleaning to finish them off - I use Heloise's solution and a microfiber cloth, not Windex.
On the Road Cleaning of the Coach (like in a restrictive campground or Wal-Mart parking lot) -
Wash with FB washing brush and gallon of water and tablespoon of auto soap solution. Squeegee. Done in less than 40 minutes; only adaquate on-the-run results.

Lee

Lee Zaborowski, Jeanne Bortz

2007 Country Coach Intrigue #12153 Branson, Missouri
http://jeanneleez.blogspot.com

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #29 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40536
Hey Lee,

You are forgiven, of course. Especially when your reason is a coach tour! Sounds like you had a great trip! You visited some of my favorite places in the West. Wish I could have been running with you....."together, separately, side by each" as my friends from the Hamtramck district of Detroit would always say.
Thanks for your detailed description of your M.O. I will be anxious to try it out as soon as soon as I can. I think there are a few others tagging along on this thread who will want to try your methods as well.
I haven't thought about good ole Fuller in a long time. I will have to get re-acquainted with them. I just requested their catalog on line.
I am going to try everything out with my old leaky clunker of a pressure washer. I'm hoping that it will not work so that I have an excuse to buy a new one.
I am afraid this antique will use more than 10-15 gallons of water. On the other hand, I am only accustomed to using hard tap water. Using soft water will probably be a whole new experience. Ha!...A jug of car washing liquid will probably last longer than its container!! Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure #30226

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #30 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40539
Daron, do you think that sodium chloride is coming out of a water softner? I thought it was sodium ions. Anyway, I guess you're saying whatever it is it will leave spots.

Also, you refer to the Water Stick carwash device as a dionizer as does the company, though their other products that work the same way are referred to as "softners." I also noticed that they no longer offer the car wash unit due to unavailability of "one part." They still offer the recharge resin. Maybe they discontinued it because it is actually a softner, having only one tank and one resin?

George Harper
04 Allure
31093

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #31 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40540
Lee

I'm impressed as well with your technique for washing a coach, but if you're going to squeegie it down, seems like you don't need demineralized water.

George Harper
04 Allure
31093

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #32 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40544
Lee,

Can't believe it.........when I read your washing regimen. It's like deja vu all over again. Your washing procedure is exactly like mine, except I usually don't use the pressure washer.
Water-Mark portable softener, foam squeegee, extendable wand with flow control and 10" wash brush head..........the whole sheebang! The only place I have to dry is around the window edges where the squeegee doesn't get. Typically, the water spotting is so inconsequential that I don't even bother. The whole operation takes 30-40 minutes. Not a big deal and not worth paying for and trusting someone else to do the job right. Plus, I can use the excercise!

Dave Trotter 01 Intrigue 11215

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #33 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40548
George, I use softened water which is not demineralized water, just a better mix of ions to avoid scum and residues. Demineralized water has been purified by passage through a bed of ion-exchange resin which removes mineral salts and is as pure as distilled water such as you'd use in your batteries, at how much a gallon???
I could skip that step I suppose but the longer the moisture hangs on the side of the coach the greater the chance of picking up dust/dirt from the wind-blown air.

Lee

Lee Zaborowski, Jeanne Bortz

2007 Country Coach Intrigue #12153 Branson, Missouri
http://jeanneleez.blogspot.com

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #34 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40551
Lee,

We had the drain from our home AC system get blocked by some critter or other. It was impossible to snake it out so I redirected the drain to the sink in the garage. This became an instant source of "distilled" water. As FL has abundent atmospheric H2O it takes about 20 minutes to make a gallon and this high rate ensures it is clean.

See you tomorrow at the IMAX.
Bob Handren'05 Country Coach Inspire 51178'00 JGCL

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #35 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40557
Hi Dave. Excellent! I agree that close to perfection is close enough. Besides, you get a few miles down the road and something is going to dirty you up anyway. I also like a microfiber cloth and Héloise's Solution (soft water, vinegar, rubbing alcohol) on the windows, and for spot clean-ups.

Lee

Lee Zaborowski, Jeanne Bortz

2007 Country Coach Intrigue #12153 Branson, Missouri
http://jeanneleez.blogspot.com

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #36 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40580
I have a 4 gallon water jug, a 2 gallon dispensor and 2 1 gallon jugs, which I fill from machines at grocery stores for .15 to .35 a gallon...

John 04 Inspire 51078

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #37 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40582
What is the size of the membrane that is used in your RO system?

Al 03 magna

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #38 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40591
What is the size of membrane that is most commonly used? Is there more than one size? Can you get more water out with less waste if there are bigger membranes?

Al 03 Magna

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #39 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40611
Al,

You didn't say who you are asking but, I am assuming you are addressing me. I have not purchased nor installed it yet. When I decide to go forward with the project I will probably go with the smaller household unit that is available from Costco or Lowes. I am not sure but, I believe it has an 18' membrane.
Daron 98 Allure #30226

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #40 –
Yahoo Message Number: 40613
Al,

Previously, it was my understanding that the ratio of pure water to waste was about the same for most household, low cost units. However, Eric Elliot wrote that the GE "Merlin" system produces 1/2 G/M. with no tank and less waste than other systems @ $370. I am going to check on availability locally. The systems that I was considering cost $160-$200 but, it sounds like the GE Merlin may be worth the additional cost. If I understand what Eric is saying, that production rate is about 1 oz. per second; not bad for not losing any space to a storage canister... unless you are impatient. I am just wondering if there is enough pressure to send the water through the 1/4" line to my Instant Hot Water Dispenser.
Daron 98 Alure #30226

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #41 –
Yahoo Message Number: 43528
-After my posting in Aug. my unit has been delivering less and less softwater per charge. I now get only about 50 gals. per regeneration.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

Bob Mussman

2006 Allure 31434
 

Re: Water Sticks portable water softener

Reply #42 –
Yahoo Message Number: 43534
Bob, I had a similar experience with my ON THE GO 3 years ago. After some trial and error I found that the secret, in my experience, was to do the recharge very slowly.
After adding the pound of table salt (I buy 5 lb. boxes of Morton's from the supermarket . . .very cheap) and capping the unit I SLOWLY run no more than a gallon of water through the unit to get the salt water distributed into the resin. I then turn the water off for about 20-30 minutes and let it sit. Finally I start the water flow again but slowly so the flow is no more than a 1/8-1/4 inch stream, checking the stream for saltiness every 15 minutes until no salty taste remains. This all takes over an hour but gives very good results, as advertised by ON THE GO.

Lee