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Sleeves or not?

Yahoo Message Number: 55368
Friends of ours just replaced his Cat engine. It dropped a valve. Why not just replace the sleeve, I asked, Cat engine was not sleeved. Which causes me to ask the questions, is our ISL 370 Cummins sleeved?
At $24K to replace an engine, we should know our options. We also might want to up our credit card limit to $25k too as the shop required cash to do the work.

Happy New Year to all.

Paul and Nancy

01' Intirgue, 11309

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55370
What Cat engine does your friend have? Most Cat engines are sleeved. The older 3208 V/8 series was not. That engine was used in RV's. It is not the same class of engine as the in-line engines that all are sleeved, to my knowledge.

Leonard

Ex-Cat mechanic
97 Magna

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55371
Had another thought: Dropping a valve on a diesel is very rare. Suspect it may have been caused by over-reving the engine going down grade. Dropping a valve usually means the valve hit the top of the piston and was bent or broke and the valve head dropped unto the piston, which can cause several block/sleeve damage. A diesel uses much heaver duty valves, both in stem diameter and much better material then a gas engine, so a dropped valve in a diesel is very rare. Gas and diesel both major cause of valve damage is over-reving causing the piston to hit the open valve.

This is why watching the RPM downgrade is so important.

Leonard

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55372
Paul,

For info only:

I popped a valve in my old Cat 3208 in a 1987 Hawkins about 5 years ago. It chewed up the surfaces in the head and two cylinders before jumped up and destroyed the turbo. The authorized Cat Service Center in Ventura, CA resurfaced and polished the cylinders, replaced a couple of pistons and a few other parts and replaced the turbo. My cost was about $7,500. They did a great job! I guess I was a lot luckier than your friend.
However, I do not have an answer regarding sleeves in the Cummins.

Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure,30226

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55374
Paul,

Correction: The Cat service center is Quinn Power Systems in Oxnard, CA. I would recommend them to anyone. In addition to doing a great job, they respect the interior of your coach.
Daron

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55376
Paul & Nancy,

Your ISL is a sleeved motor. That is the reason you have to have the correct SCA/DCA additive level to prevent cavitation between the sleeve and the block. The formation of little bubbles (cavitation) can cause a hole in the liner which you do not want to happen.

Don

'02 Intrigue #11427
'02 Intrigue #11427

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55383
Reading this post reminds me that as a relatively new CC owner of a 2003 Allure with a Cummins ISL that I have more to learn about proper driving technique than I have as yet assimilated by trial, error, and research of prior postings on this group.
What is the best driving technique for safe and controlled downslope driving, and what range of engine rpm's is considered ideal vs. over reving? Is a momentary over-rev as detrimental as a sustained event?

Thanks for any advice offered.
Mark

Coach 30895

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Leonard Kerns

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 14:56:10 -0800 To:
Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Sleeves or not?

Had another thought: Dropping a valve on a diesel is very rare. Suspect it may have been caused by over-reving the engine going down grade. Dropping a valve usually means the valve hit the top of the piston and was bent or broke and the valve head dropped unto the piston, which can cause several block/sleeve damage. A diesel uses much heaver duty valves, both in stem diameter and much better material then a gas engine, so a dropped valve in a diesel is very rare. Gas and diesel both major cause of valve damage is over-reving causing the piston to hit the open valve.

This is why watching the RPM downgrade is so important.

Leonard

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55384
That red line is the line that will turn into a green $ line if you over max the RPM's. Leonard is right on, as it is very rare to drop a valve on the in line diesel engines. There must be lots more to the $24K engine rebuild. My guess is the cylinder head got messed up when parts started flying. Many be they did the other cylinders at the request of the owner when it was out of frame. Having the CAT dealer is going to use new parts on the rebuild.
Being aware of the engine RPM when going down a grade is the leading cause of severe engine damage. Truck fleets have spent thousands on governors to protect there engines as drivers didn't.
It's just one of the things that can't be over looked.
AL

00 affinity #5851

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55387
Regarding over reving the engine I seam to remember an allision rep telling a group that the transmission will not allow the engine to over rev However the speed does increase BOB 06 Intrigue 12047

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55388
When I lesrned of the 2100 red line some time ago, I called CAT. they said not to worry going down grades, the tranny will not allow overrevving by automatically upshifting.
Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55389
Hi Bob,

You are correct with that. We have the 2 stage Jake Brake on our ISL 400-2 engine. When I top a hill, I slow down to around 45 mph and start down with the lower stage of the Jake using 3 cylinders. If I get going too fast, I kick in the other 3 cylinders. If the tranny and engine are programed correctly, the tranny will shift into a higher gear if the engine rpm's get too high. I have been all over the US as far as mountain grades are concerned and never had a over rev problem. The Cummins and Allison tranny are what I call a dumb man's engine and tranny, it will not self destruct.

Chuck & Mary B

Red Bluff, Ca.

Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55390
Oh, oh. This subject thread worries me. I have be laboring under the illusion that the drive train system would not allow the engine to overspeed on a down grade. That is, the transmission would shift into a higher gear whenever the engine approached its upper rpm limit. Have I been misinformed? Or, are we talking about going so fast that, even in the highest gear, the engine overspeeds? That in itself is a scary thought.
BTW, my tachometer does not have a red line on it. My old Magna did. So far I have been lucky enough not to do the damage others have suffered, but I'm not comfortable that it might be due to blind luck, rather than knowing what the heck I'm doing.
Jim Biestek

'04 Intrigue, 11783

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55391
If the grade is 6% or less I try to crest the hill less than 58 mph then the coach will shift into 4th and all is well. If the grade is 7% I try to get down to 45 then the coach will go to 3rd. Now I had my transmission set up to automatically seek second, because we like to run around the western slopes of Colorado.
Going from east to west over Wolf Creek Pass or East from Alamosa to Salida, 2nd gear is my second best friend going down hill most of the time its Third.
With the Odessey and the coach I weigh out at 45,ooo lb.. The engine break is much superior on the ISL as

compared to the exhaust brake my Allure had on an ISC. I don't let the engine rev over 2,500 rpm as

after a half/ hour or so the Yellow Engine warning light will come on. TWI 2004 Intrigue 42' 11731

Original Message:
-----------------

From: mb_hoffman@... Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 03:22:19 +0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Sleeves or not?

Reading this post reminds me that as a relatively new CC owner of a 2003 Allure with a Cummins ISL that I have more to learn about proper driving technique than I have as yet assimilated by trial, error, and research of prior postings on this group.

What is the best driving technique for safe and controlled downslope driving, and what range of engine rpm's is considered ideal vs. over reving? Is a momentary over-rev as detrimental as a sustained event?

Thanks for any advice offered.
Mark

Coach 30895

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55394
James not to worry, I will also confirm that Allison confirmed that the transmission will upshift to prevent over-revving, However this I am sure only applies to electronically controlled engine and trans combinations. I believe this would not be so for the older engines without computers. Of course saving an engine or running out of brakes when the trans up shift can also cost more than an engine Maybe your life !

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55395
Just as a point of interest, which I'm sure all know, when the Allison up shifts to protect the engine, you lose the effects of engine braking and the beast will pick up speed RAPIDLY. Be alert...

Rag

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55397
Bob,

You are correct. The transmission is smarter than we are. It will prevent the engine, either Cat or Cummins, from exceeding red line. The transmission will simply up shift to keep the RPM within limits. IIRC, the trans will even go to neutral if need be to keep everything from coming apart.
I don't know about your tach, but mine doesn't have any indication of a red line on it.

Don

"02 Intrigue #11427
'02 Intrigue #11427

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55398
Seems one would be better served by using the chassis brakes to assists the engine brake to keep the RPM under the yellow line or the shift up point. By the way, studies have shown light brake applications longer, generator less brake heat then short hard braking, on down grades. Just slow down with chassis brakes and then let the engine brake do it's thing. I, like others, have found the importance of starting the downgrade at a slower speed, it works very well.

Need to keep in mind, that some if not all, early Cat 3208 only had a 4 speed transmission. Friend had one and had issues of overheating etc. BIG difference between a 4 speed and a 6 speed in all aspects of performance up and down grade. Have driven the 5 speed in school buses and the 6 speed in RV, can't image having to do with only a 4 speed.

Leonard

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55400
The 'other' bus driving training run was: go down a grade in the same gear as you needed to go up. This was very important with the manuel shift transmission. One had to slow enough at the top of the grade to get in the correct gear as it was forbidden to shift once in the grade.

Leonard

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55401
Hi Rag,

I never had that problem. I always start down the hill at 45 mph or less.
I have yet to experience a down grade that was too steep to not slow down the coach with 6 cylinders engaged on the Jake. Those folks with exhaust/pac type brakes will not experience the braking power of a true Jake brake that lives under the valve cover.

Chuck & Mary B

Red Bluff, Ca.

Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55403
In a conversation with a Cummins rep, he stated that if the engine is about to red line in 6th gear you will be going 98 miles an hour as it slips into neutral. At 98 mph on a 6% downgrade you probably have a lot of scary problems.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: Sleeves or not?

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55409
Thanks to all for responding. I don't know which Cat engine our firends have. As I remember he saw smoke going up a mt. then difficulty holding speed. He does not have any more answers.

We both wondered about CSP coverage. Would CSP covered any part?

Paul and Nancy

01' Intirgue # 11309
Now,