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2004 Allure Overheating

Yahoo Message Number: 89955
Is there anybody out there with an Allure and Cummins ISL 370 engine that doesn't have an overheat problem? If so, what did you replace, if anything, to make it so?
We've been troubleshooting and replacing components for a year: new fan controller, new coolant sensor, new engine thermostat, flushed radiator, and new coolant filter. The coach still overheats on 88F+ days while climbing small hills in north Florida. Maybe that's normal for this engine/coach?
We're thinking it might be a fan motor and or pilot valve because, with the fan controller fuse pulled, the fan runs at 2000-2200 rpm at engine speeds of idle up to 2100 rpm. Has anyone had success when the fan motor was replaced? Thanks in advance.

Bob & Karen

2004 Allure 30985

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89956
My bus runs reasonable well. If I push it too hard up hills it will overheat. I've got the Cummins ISL 400 for whatever that's worth. I usually run with the fan controller plug pulled. The on again off again fan switch isn't really a good idea IMHO. The engine compartment is sorely in need to ventilation. Running the fan constantly really helps with all around cooling. If that costs me a couple of bucks more in fuel so be it.

During climbs I make sure to stay around 1,500 RPM and 800-900 foot pounds of torque. The transmission gearing is selected to achieve these parameters. We've climbed Parleys Summit on route 80 without any problems towing an 8k pound van. Speeds run around 10-15 MPH. All components are stock except the radiator that needed to be replaced.
The new radiator didn't improve the cooling just eliminated the coolant leak.

I think the Allures are under powered and improperly designed regarding cooling. Too much bus and not enough engine, transmission and cooling capacity. That said, you need to baby them and not push too hard. You should repeat those climbs and experiment with slower speeds, lower torque and less MPH. See if you can rake back a bit and dial in some cooler parameters. If this doesn't work then you've got other issues. Perhaps your radiator core is plugged up with mineral salts.

I've always used FleetGuard ES Compleat. You'll need to check for proper flow rates, pump and restrictions in the cooling system. Hope this helps.
Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89957
Not sure if this helps , but w a previous Winnebago ultimate advantage and no side radiator, we had thAt problem and were told to clean the radiator fins by washing w low pressure power washer due to a build up of dust and dirt. Never had the overheating after that . That engine was a C9 CAT 375 hp.

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89960
Bob & Karen,

I have a 03 Allure 1st Ave. 40' Tag with ISL 370 Chipped to 400 HP. I've never had an overheating problem. I've driven the coach 128,000 mi in temperatures of 110 degrees and over the highest of Western USA Passes.

The highest my Silverleaf ever shows is 202 F.

Regards, Mike 03 Allure 1st. Ave. #30898

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89961
X's 2 (Minus about 100K miles:)! But, we'll work hard on catching up with Mike ASAP!)
We've traveled Highway 395 with temps between 100-115 degrees running down from Reno to San Diego. Some hills involved with this, and that was in the above 105 degree temps. This was also with our pre changeover to OAT cooling. Never any problems with engine or transmission temperatures. Now after the change over to OAT coolant, along with new hoses, clamps, thermostat all preventative due to age - temperature seems to run on average 5 degrees cooler then pre OAT.

I'll repeat two key things that Scott mentioned:

1) Be sure you are driving for the engine, and keeping it geared down to keep RPM's up enough to handle hill climbs. I learned from reading this board, and others, to manually down shift way prior to lugging and auto trans downshift (I guestimate 200-300 RMP ahead of what the trans will do in 'Non Economy' mode (and when in hills, be sure you are out of Economy mode). I'll keep my RPM's between 1700-2000 on most long hill climbs. If I find were going back and forth between gears but that it will maintain speed at say 2050-2100 RPM - I'll run this RPM for some shorter periods. (But most of the time 1700-1850 is what I can climb most long hills - usually in 4th to 5th gear, with occasionally jumps down into 3rd or 2nd if needed.

2) Do have a Cummins Certified shop do a water flow analysis. Make sure your cooling fan is kicking on, and jumping to high fan speed when needed. You may have a plugged radiator. (And cleaning it as mentioned would never hurt.)

And while my smaller 40' coach is not going to break any speed records climbing hills, I find that 95% of the time I'm OK with the power available. Sure I would like just a tad bit more for long big grades, but overall with the 40' coach (half tank water, and dump tanks as often as possible) the ISL takes good care of us.

Please let us know what you find out, and best of luck to you!

Smitty

04 Allure 40' Tag, CRV Toad, ISL370
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89962
According to a check-out sheet I copied above 190 degree coolant temp, the cooling fan should turn 2500 to 2600 rpm, not 2100. Whats the Rpm if you pull the controller plug?, If its not 2600 rpm, you have either a bad fan motor or a bad hydraulic pump. If the fan does reach 2600 with the plug pulled, its either the sensors, fan controller or info from the ECM, if wired that way. My 3 cases of over heating have been caused by the fan controller. TWI 2004 ISL 400 Intrigue 42' 11731

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89963
Scott,

you indicated that you go up some hills at 10-15 MPH... Is that correct?

Dave

07 Country Coach Allure 430 #31495 12 Jeep GC Toad Mountains of So Cal


Dave & Jodi
2007 CC Allure 40’ Tag #31495
2012 Jeep GC
Big Bear Lake, Ca & Henderson, Nev

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89969
Yes. I was referring to route 80 E out of SLC, Utah up over Parleys Summit as an example. This is a long steep hill and one of the more demanding climbs we've done. My priorities aren't road speed but engine RPM and torque. I'll establish an engine RPM of a nominal 1,500 first.
Then select the transmission gearing to keep the torque between 800-900 Ft-Lbs give or take. After that whatever my road speed is so be it.
Remember to put the flashers on. Engine coolant temp will rise to 210-212F and transmission temp will hit around 230F. As mentioned, the bus is under powered, overloaded and under cooled. You need to baby it.
We always plan extra time on our routes so there's never a rush.
Finally, beating the crap out of your drive train gets expensive.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89972


Bob:

The fan speed should be greater than 2750 RPM at a engine speed of 2100 RPM according to the spec. Since you've change the sensors and fan controller, I suspect it's the fan motor or hydraulic pump. Based on my experience with my rig, I start with the fan motor.

John Beach

06 Allure 31309

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89973
If you had ever attended any of the lectures at CC Home Comings. You would have had the opportunity to attend an Allison transmission seminar conducted by Gary; a long time employee, trouble shooter, supervisor, and former lead tech. Over heating was always on the list of questions to be asked. It Usually came from the big block Cat owners, though. As they enough torque and Horsepower and with the relative tall 3.9 to 4.3 rear end, they found them selves easily going up grades from 1200 to 1400 rpm and over heating. Some of us with medium sized blocks were having the same issues when at climbing at 1500 to 1700 rpm. His recommendation was to get the RPM's up to get more cooling for the engine and especially for the transmission. When the latest version of the World transmission came along, synthetic transmission fluid, Transynd be came mandatory. This Happened on JAN 1, 2004. As 3000 and 4000 transmission were being asked to handle more and more torque over the original design, synthetic fluid was developed to handle heat up to 246 degrees sump temp, which is read by the Silver leaf but not by the dash analog gauge. It reads the temp as the fluid leaves the transmission for the cooling radiator shared with the engine cooling radiator on the same assembly. Representatives from the Cat and Cummins factories and service centers, also recommended getting the RPMs up while climbing grades where ambient temps caused temp readouts to climb. Gary further stated never to trust analog gauges on the Dash but either use Silver leaf or Cummins/CAT digital read out products that were attached to the engines and transmission ECM's. So what am I saying, shift down, and wind that ISL up. 1500 RPM only winds the fan from 1000 to 1400 rpm, depending on the sensors or ECM and that's only half of what you need. You cannot over rev the engine or the transmission unless you take the transmission out of gear, or apply fuel with the engine break on with the rpms above 2100 rpm. Do you ever let your engine wind up going down hill grades with the engine brake on? 2100 to 25 or 2600 rpm? Remember the transmission will up shift before the RPM's can hurt the engine. You might want to attend a Cummins or Allison Seminar at an International FMCA rally sometime.. TWI 2004 ISL 400 11731

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89974


I have a 2003 Allure with a Cummins ISL 370HP and was out west last summer and fall in high passes 7,000 ft plus in 90 f weather along with steep grades and had no over heating problems. Later in the winter, I had a fan controller failure when going into San Diego resulting in random overheating but that is a completely different issue. I ended up putting in a by pass switch at the dash to cut the power to the controller (which forces it on high) and used that to get me home to Maryland. I replaced the fan control (8 week delivery) and it now works beautifully. The temperature is now controlled to 197 degrees plus minus 2 degrees in 100 degree weather on mostly level roads. I have no reason to believe it won't be as good in the mountains.
Do you still have an overheat issue when the fan is forced on high? If it still overheats, I would suspect the radiator core is restricting the flow. I don't know what the fan speed should be at 2200 RPM engine speed but suspect the fan speed you measured is accurate. You should be able to get the fan speed specs on the internet or from a CC tech for various engine RPM's. I have heard good reports about Butch Williams at Fountain RV in Lakeland Florida. He is a former CC tech and I would expect he could pin point your issue relatively quickly. Good luck.

Dennis 2003 Allure #30884


Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89981
I keep the fan plug pulled so there isn't any correlation between engine RPM and fan speed. The fan runs at maximum speed all the time. I also think engine compartment ventilation is very lacking. The fan's exhaust helps that somewhat. Seminars are good for information. If and when I'm in a place to partake, I surely would. Thanks for the details.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89985
ok so I keep hearing about this fan controller. Can anyone tell me where my fan controller is located? I am not having any issues but I think it would be good info to have. I have an older Cummins CTA 8.3 ltr 325hp.

Steve & Jane

1998 Intrigue

#10557

______

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89986
My 8.3 1998 Cummins does not have an electronic controller. They have a mixing (?) type valve with a wax ring, its mechanical.

Nathan 1998 Allure

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89991
You have a totally different type of fan controller I was told recently. I had asked why I never had trouble with my previous 98 Allure over heating. It's referred to as a wax based type. I don't understand how they work, but either they usually work rather well, or they don't. None of this middle of the road stuff. TWI formerly 98 Allure 30255

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating - Measuring fan speed

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89993
Greetings!

How does one measure the speed of the hydraulic cooling fan? Are the cited numbers actual speeds, or specifications?

Jay 05 Inspire 51457 C9

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89999
Thanks all for your excellent inputs. Looks like nobody has fixed an overheat issue by replacing the fan motor so we're not going to do that right now. May in the future if we can determine, for certain, that it's a bad motor and not a bad tandem hydraulic pump (fan drive/power steering) that causes the lower than spec fan speed (with the fan controller disconnected at the fuse). In the meantime, I'm going to replace the charge air temp sensor to the fan controller (just because it's easy and relatively cheap). Will also install a fuse bypass switch in the cockpit; maybe the 2000 rpm fan speed before it gets hot outside will keep the temp spikes down.
As Scott suggests, we'll just continue to baby it and lower our normal cruising speed from 62-63 mph to 50-55 mph on hilly interstates (always cools it down). BTW, down-shifting and higher engine RPMs don't seem to help compared to lowering the cruising speed.
I check the fan speed with CyberTech digital photo tachometer from Amazon. I assume my local repair shop used a similar (but more accurate) meter to confirm my observations.

Thanks again, hope we answered everyone's questions.

Bob & Karen

2004 Allure 30985

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90001
Bob - Over the road I've noticed a significant difference in temps based on traveling speed. 55-60 seems to be the sweet spot. On stretches of interstate that permit 75 MPH we've perked the bus up to 65-70 and after awhile the transmission begins to heat up. Sometimes this takes hours but always correlates to excessive travel speed. Now we usually run on average at 60 MPH and find this provides the best compromise between temps, wear/tear and getting to our destination on time. As mentioned, why beat the crap out of your drive train, tires, bearings, etc.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90002
Bob:

I replaced the fan motor and corrected the over heating problem, after replacing the controller and hydraulic pump.
The controller needed replacement, intermittent. Then I performed a fan speed test and a hydraulic pump flow test and found the fan speed and flow did not meet spec., so I replaced the pump. This did not correct the overheating, but, replacing the fan motor did.
If you perform the tests and find a problem, I would replace the fan motor first.

John Beach

06 Allure 31309

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90005
John,

That's encouraging, thanks. Can you provide, or point me in right direction to, the hydraulic flow test procedures? Also, do you have the part number and cost for the fan motor?

Bob & Karen

2004 Allure 30985

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90006
John,

That's encouraging, thanks. Can you provide, or point me in right direction to, the hydraulic flow test procedures? Also, do you have the part number and cost for the fan motor?

Bob & Karen

2004 Allure 30985

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90007
John,

That's encouraging, thanks. Can you provide, or point me in right direction to, the hydraulic flow test procedures? Also, do you have the part number and cost for the fan motor?

Bob & Karen

2004 Allure 30985

Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90011
I have many friends who have had this same problem. It was caused by debris clogging the radiator. Since the tranny cooler and intercooler(?) was covering the main radiator, the problem was hidden and could not be seen and effectively cleaned without disassembly. This problem is also made worse when the fan comes on high on every initial startup. When parked on a dusty/dirty surface, debris can easily be sucked into the radiator eventually clogging it.
IMHO, I would verify that this is not the problem before cha$ing other possibilities.

-TB

CC pendingWinking smile
From:gramm_robert Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:25 PM To:Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: 2004 Allure Overheating

John,

That's encouraging, thanks. Can you provide, or point me in right direction to, the hydraulic flow test procedures? Also, do you have the part number and cost for the fan motor?

Bob & Karen

2004 Allure 30985

Quote from: John Beach
Bob:
> I replaced the fan motor and corrected the over heating problem, after
replacing the controller and hydraulic pump.

Quote
>

The controller
needed replacement, intermittent. Then I performed a fan speed test and a hydraulic pump flow test and found the fan speed and flow did not meet spec., so I replaced the pump. This did not correct the overheating, but, replacing the fan motor did.

Quote
>

If you perform the tests and find a problem, I
would replace the fan motor first.

Quote
John Beach
06

Allure 31309

Quote
>

-----Original

Message-----

Quote
From: gramm_robert
To:
Country-Coach-Owners mailto:Country-Coach-Owners%40yahoogroups.com>



Sent: Mon, Jul 29, 2013 8:52 am

Quote
Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: 2004
Allure Overheating

Quote
>

Thanks all for your excellent
inputs. Looks like nobody has fixed an overheat

Quote
issue by replacing the
fan motor so we're not going to do that right now. May

Quote
in the future if
we can determine, for certain, that it's a bad motor and not a

Quote
bad
tandem hydraulic pump (fan drive/power steering) that causes the lower than
Quote
spec fan speed (with the fan controller disconnected at the fuse). In
the

Quote
meantime, I'm going to replace the charge air temp sensor to the
fan controller

Quote
(just because it's easy and relatively cheap). Will also
install a fuse bypass

Quote
switch in the cockpit; maybe the 2000 rpm fan
speed before it gets hot outside

Quote
will keep the temp spikes down.
> As Scott suggests, we'll just continue to baby it and lower
our normal cruising

Quote
speed from 62-63 mph to 50-55 mph on hilly
interstates (always cools it down).

Quote
BTW, down-shifting and higher
engine RPMs don't seem to help compared to

Quote
lowering the cruising
speed.

Quote
>

I check the fan speed with CyberTech digital photo
tachometer from Amazon. I

Quote
assume my local repair shop used a similar
(but more accurate) meter to confirm

Quote
my observations.
Thanks again, hope we answered everyone's questions.

Quote
>

Bob &

Karen

Quote
2004 Allure 30985

--- In
href="mailto:Country-Coach-Owners%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:Country-Coach-Owners%40yahoogroups.com, "gramm_robert"

Quote
wrote:
>

> Is
there anybody out there with an Allure and Cummins ISL 370 engine that



doesn't have an overheat problem? If so, what did you replace, if anything, to

Quote
make it so?
>

> We've been troubleshooting and
replacing components for a year: new fan

Quote
controller, new coolant
sensor, new engine thermostat, flushed radiator, and new

Quote
coolant
filter. The coach still overheats on 88F+ days while climbing small



hills in north Florida. Maybe that's normal for this engine/coach?

Quote

> We're thinking it might be a fan motor and or pilot valve because,
with the

Quote
fan controller fuse pulled, the fan runs at 2000-2200 rpm at
engine speeds of

Quote
idle up to 2100 rpm. Has anyone had success when the
fan motor was replaced?

Quote
Thanks in advance.
>

>

Bob & Karen

Quote
2004 Allure 30985
>

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