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Radiator fan question, again

Yahoo Message Number: 90510
As previously noted, my fan seems to run full speed all the time. I have read up on CC fan controllers and looked for the Sauer-Danfoss controller mounted to the radiator shroud that many folks seem to have.
I can find no such gizmo on my coach. There is nothing mounted to the fan shroud. I do have this round device mounted to the fan motor:
http://www.irv2.com/attachments/photopost/data/500/fangizmo.jpg
I have read that on some coaches, the fan parameters are controlled by the engine ECU. I sent an email to CC today asking about that but have gotten no answer. I will be taking the coach to my Cummins Coach Care shop next week for a couple of items and plan to ask them to check but not sure what I need for them to check.

Gary

'07 Allure 470, #31578

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90519
Gary, I've not been under an 07 Allure, but for all that I've been under the Fan Controller is NOT mounted to the Fan Shroud. On my coach the Fan Controller is mounted on a bracket about 24" from the Fan Shroud towards the engine. For sure it's there.
Newer coaches such as yours do not use the Air Temperature & Coolant Temperature Sensors like mine, yours uses the Engine ECM to pickup those parameters. Your Fan Controller has a 2 wire connector for Power and I think a 4 wire connector for controlling the fan speed.

Thanks, Mike 03 Allure 1st Ave. #30898 ISL 400

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90523
Gary, the picture you posted looks like the hydraulic solenoid which is controlled by the fan controller. Following the wires from the solenoid should lead you to the controller.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90529
Larry, thanks for the tip. I will do that. Since it appears that the parameters that send messages to the fan controller are coming from the Cummins ECM, the constant high speed running of the fan must be due to failure of the fan controller (based on what I have read about the fairly high failure rate of the Sauer-Danfoss controller). Although other than using up horsepower unecessarily, I am thinking there is no other disadvantage of the fan running on high.....should contribute to better cooling when pulling grades.

Gary

From: BLarry F

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 8:18 AM Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Radiator fan question, again

Gary, the picture you posted looks like the hydraulic solenoid which is controlled by the fan controller. Following the wires from the solenoid should lead you to the controller.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90530
Gary,

There have been several cases where removing and cleaning, lubricating the associated plugs for the controller and sensors have corrected he issue. Might be worth a try.

Mikee

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90533
Gary

"Although other than using up horsepower unecessarily, I am thinking there is no other disadvantage of the fan running on high.....should contribute to better cooling when pulling grades."
That's pretty much how I see it. No use in buying another expensive, unreliable fan controller, only to have it fail again in a year or two, as has been reported here

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90535
?
Gary,

The fan controller defaults to full fan speed if it loses it's 12 volt dc supply. What Mikee is alluding to is that sometimes the plug connections near the controller get corroded and cause the loss of the dc supply. There is also a controller fuse located in the chassis fuse box. The important thing to determine is that there is 12 volts at the supply plug (2 wire plug) and that the contacts are clean and in good shape.
There are two additional disadvantages to running the fan on high all the time besides horsepower. The engine will operate at somewhat less than it's optimum temperature range which is never a good thing. Too cool can be just as bad as too hot although it may take longer for the damage to appear. The fan controller is designed to run the engine in the proper range and it will increase the fans speed to whatever is needed when climbing grade.
The second minor disadvantage is that the fan running on high speed will kick up much more of a dust cloud when operating in dry unpaved areas. If that is driving around a busy RV park you are not going to be too popular with the rest of the folks.

Don Seager
Ex CC owner

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90540
OK, will try that. I also noted that what appears to be the plunger for the solenoid that is attached to the fan motor was coated with crud as if it has not been moving. Would think if it is a solenoid that is supposed to cycle depending on cooling needs, the plunger would be clean from movement.

Gary

From: "Mbaul@..."

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Radiator fan question, again

Gary,

There have been several cases where removing and cleaning, lubricating the associated plugs for the controller and sensors have corrected he issue. Might be worth a try.

Mikee

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90541
Don, thanks. All good things to consider. I have already seen the dust cloud as I pulled into my parking/storage area. I know I will not be a welcomed guest in any RV park with dry gravel or dusty roads.
I will check those connections if I can ever find the fan controller. I already checked the fuse up front and it is good.

Gary

From: Don Seager

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Radiator fan question, again
?
Gary,

The fan controller defaults to full fan speed if it loses it's 12 volt dc supply. What Mikee is alluding to is that sometimes the plug connections near the controller get corroded and cause the loss of the dc supply. There is also a controller fuse located in the chassis fuse box. The important thing to determine is that there is 12 volts at the supply plug (2 wire plug) and that the contacts are clean and in good shape.
There are two additional disadvantages to running the fan on high all the time besides horsepower. The engine will operate at somewhat less than it's optimum temperature range which is never a good thing. Too cool can be just as bad as too hot although it may take longer for the damage to appear. The fan controller is designed to run the engine in the proper range and it will increase the fans speed to whatever is needed when climbing grade.
The second minor disadvantage is that the fan running on high speed will kick up much more of a dust cloud when operating in dry unpaved areas. If that is driving around a busy RV park you are not going to be too popular with the rest of the folks.

Don Seager
Ex CC owner

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90550
?
Gary,

My fan controller was mounted behind the fan shroud on a frame member but no actually on the shroud itself. It is easier to spot the two plugs hanging from it. On is a 2 wire plug (DC supply) and the other is a multi wire plug with usually either 4 or 6 wires (controller input). The controller connects to a sophisticated hydraulic control valve that controls the flow of fluid depending on the output from the fan controller. Someone may have referred to is as a solenoid but I don't believe there is one involved in the sense that you are thinking. Could be wrong, it has been a while,

Don Seager
Ex CC owner

Don, thanks. All good things to consider. I have already seen the dust cloud as I pulled into my parking/storage area. I know I will not be a welcomed guest in any RV park with dry gravel or dusty roads.
I will check those connections if I can ever find the fan controller. I already checked the fuse up front and it is good.

Gary

From: Don Seager

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Radiator fan question, again
?
Gary,

The fan controller defaults to full fan speed if it loses it's 12 volt dc supply. What Mikee is alluding to is that sometimes the plug connections near the controller get corroded and cause the loss of the dc supply. There is also a controller fuse located in the chassis fuse box. The important thing to determine is that there is 12 volts at the supply plug (2 wire plug) and that the contacts are clean and in good shape.
There are two additional disadvantages to running the fan on high all the time besides horsepower. The engine will operate at somewhat less than it's optimum temperature range which is never a good thing. Too cool can be just as bad as too hot although it may take longer for the damage to appear. The fan controller is designed to run the engine in the proper range and it will increase the fans speed to whatever is needed when climbing grade.
The second minor disadvantage is that the fan running on high speed will kick up much more of a dust cloud when operating in dry unpaved areas. If that is driving around a busy RV park you are not going to be too popular with the rest of the folks.

Don Seager
Ex CC owner

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90552
Don, when you say behind the fan shroud on a frame member, was it inside the shroud between the fan and the cooling pack? I have looked thoroughly all around the fan shroud (on the engine side - top, bottom, and both sides of the shroud) and do not find it. I have not looked inside the shroud. If it is inside the shroud, why in the world would they put it there???*:-/ confused
Gary

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90563
Gary

They put it behind the shroud to make it hard to replace. On my C-9 they had to remove the shroud to replace the controller. Someone on this site cut an access hole in the shroud and then made a cover for future replacement. Definitely not an optimist.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90564
JFWIW mine is mounted on the outside of the shroud on the aft end.

Larry 03 Allure 30856

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90575
OK, been chasing something that is not there. CC tech support got back to me and advises the round device that is mounted directly to the fan motor is my controller. He (Kevin) told me in the some later CAT applications and most later Cummins ISL applications that use the engine ECM to send messages to the controller, they used the device I have on my coach. There is no controller inside of or mounted to the fan shroud. He did say that if mine is shot (a good possibility), it might take 8 - 12 weeks to get one unless I got lucky and someone just happened to have one on the shelf.
I will be checking what I can myself and leaving the rest to Cummins Atlantic.

Gary

'07 Allure 470 #31578

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90638
Don is right on regarding the dust storm. Due to the poor location of the engine air inlet, where do you think much of the dust is going? That's right! Some of you maybe shocked when you check the air filter. How do I know this? My controller has failed again and she's running full blast kicking up a storm back there. To help extend my air filter life, I use a primary filter custom made for the air intake opening. Since the surface area is quite small, I have to change it frequently which is about once a week if I stay on paved roads. Thanks to my high speed fan, I now have to change it daily. I'm presently in Nova Scotia where I don't need the fan and have had the engine running below its normal operating temps. This has been discussed before and I will be hooking up the fan to turn it off until I can get another controller.

Ed McManus.....'02 Intrigue......11361

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90689
Ed or anyone else,

I would like to turn my fan completely off at times. I know this would have to be monitored closely but I can kick up dust even at very low RPM's on the fan. How can one hook up the fan to not turn? I thought that disconnecting a sensor or the 12v supply would force it into high speed. The option of no fan would be great while in a campground.

Richard Aquino 2001 Intrigue

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90694
Richard, I see where you have photo's of a FAN SHROUD on this web, does that not help with dust blowing in the campground? A good friend made one for me and he works great. It also keeps rocks out the serpentine belt.

Mike 03 Allure 1st Ave. #30898

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90703
The shroud does help with dust and rocks but when in a dusty campground I sometimes still kick up dust. Just no where near as much as without the shroud. That is why I would like to have the option of turning the fan off.

Richard Aquino

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90712
Another opinion:

Murphy's Law says that if you disable the fan, by whatever means, you will forget one day and have to replace your engine.
If I understand things, when the dash air is on, the engine cooling fan will run at full speed resulting in a dust cloud in dusty areas. After I got my controller working, I just turn off my dash air and if the engine is not running hot... no dust cloud!
On another point, if the fan runs on high all of the time, as stated elsewhere, the engine runs cooler and less efficiently. For me it improved my fuel usage by 3/4 MPG or around 10%.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90714
My fan seems to run constantly and is not affected by the dash air. On a short (1 hour) run to the Cummins Coach Care shop today with ambient temps of 70F, Silverleaf showed my average engine temp at 188 - 190 with a brief run up to 195 when climbing a grade. I am at 1000 feet and was towing my CRV. I have the Cummins ISL 425 clean diesel so am I running too cool for that engine?

Gary

07 Allure 470 #31578

From: dickmay_2000

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 10:05 AM Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Radiator fan question, again

Another opinion:

Murphy's Law says that if you disable the fan, by whatever means, you will forget one day and have to replace your engine.
If I understand things, when the dash air is on, the engine cooling fan will run at full speed resulting in a dust cloud in dusty areas. After I got my controller working, I just turn off my dash air and if the engine is not running hot... no dust cloud!
On another point, if the fan runs on high all of the time, as stated elsewhere, the engine runs cooler and less efficiently. For me it improved my fuel usage by 3/4 MPG or around 10%.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438

Quote from: rlaquino2728"
Ed or anyone else,
> I would like to turn my fan completely off at times. I know this would have to be monitored closely but I can kick up dust even at very low RPM's on the fan. How can one hook up the fan to not turn? I thought that disconnecting a sensor or the 12v supply would force it into high speed. The option of no fan would be great while in a campground.

Richard Aquino 2001 Intrigue
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Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90717
Richard

I've never done it, but I think one would have to find a way to apply 12 volts to the hydraulic solenoid to stop the fan from turning.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90727
This is a bad plan. Do not disable your fan. One memory loss will cost you a lot of money. Let the dust fly. It is only for a very short time. Have you ever been "attacked" for the dust?

Mikee

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90736
I will be interested in any responses to Gary, as these temps are exactly what I have had for the last 2 years and 10,000 with the same engine and spec. I have not concerned myself as 190 ish is in theory fine.

Michael

2008 Allure 31683

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90754
Clip the 2 wires coming from the fan controller that feed the hydraulic solenoid. Ground one side and hook up 12v through a switch mounted at the drivers station. Flip her on and fan stops. I have been running like this for 4-5 years now. The only downside is one must monitor engine temperatures more closely. Last year I decided to replace the controller as when it works, it does work well and is efficient. However when it does fail as mine has for the 3rd time, it is frustrating to run around the rest of the summer with fan running at high speed. Unless you carry a spare, it usually takes weeks to get one. In fact I'm contemplating on whether I'm going to replace it again. To help cooling, I have a louvered grill on the engine hatch, a 16" electric fan tyrapped to the radiator grill and removed the monster mud flap. Yesterday the temperature got up to 80 and I only had to flip the fan on when I climbed some long gentle hills. Was OK on the flat and around town. Of course you only need the switch if your controler is working properly. One way to help avoid the dust storm at the campground at the end of the day is turn off the dash air while proceeding to your campsite. Because the controller is fagile enough, I wouldn't mess with it if its working.
As for memory loss in forgetting to turn on the fan, I have been late or slow a few times such that I did lose some coolant but the idiot light catches your eye very quickly. If one were to miss these signs or be a sleep at the wheel, maybe he shouldn't be driving anyhow. That being said, as I stated earlier, if the controller is working don't mess with it. If it isn't and you don't mind blowing dust and decreasing your gas mileage than manual fan operation is not for you.

Ed McManus......'02 Intrigue......11361

Re: Radiator fan question, again

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90762
I am using my memory of the information in the Cummins manual for my '04 Allure 31038. That coach had the ISL 370. The manual stated that the thermostat is not fully opened until 195 degrees. My experience in 120,000 miles with that coach was that the temp ran from 192 to 198 under usual flat conditions. The engine actually ran cooler in hot ambient temperatures as the fan was frequently sent to high speed based on the chassis A/C compressor head pressure.
When the Sauer Danfoos controller failed the temps would be more like 185 to 188. The dash A/C is VERY COLD when the fan is on high speed all the time.
The fan does not run on high whenever the A/C is on. There are three inputs to the sensor controlled fan speed controllers. Coolant temp. Charge air temp. A/C high side pressure from the trinary switch on the receiver/drier.
I had three controller failures with my Allure and the controller in my Magna has failed.

George in Birmingham(still in Santa Fe) '03 Magna 6298
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298