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Equalizing AGM batteries

Yahoo Message Number: 11436
My AGM batteries have performed flawlessly for 2 years and I hope to get 2 or 3 more years out of them. After having used them for 2 years, I'm wondering should AGMs should be equalized or not?

If you have accurate information from a reliable source on this subject, I would appreciate it if you could share what facts you know.

Regards,

Bob Kumza

Intrigue #11581

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11439
If you call Lifeline they will give you the info needed. Lifeline told me to equalize the AGM batteries. The confusion is created because Xantrex says not to. But, Xantrex does not make the battery, Lifeline does. You must be there during the the process. I have done it several times. Dale Hollick Affinity #6370

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11440
I don't think so Bob. Lead acid batteries tend to build up sulfate on the lead veins in each cell. Equalizing is a way to boil sulphate off and rejuvenate them if they metal isn't pitted to bad. You increase the charge voltage on lead acid to like 16v and the batteries gas for a while.
AGM don't have a venting as they are entirely sealed so, I don't beleive you ca do that with them.

But, check with the mfgr.
Skip
======

My AGM batteries have performed flawlessly for 2 years and I hope to get 2 or 3 more years out of them. After having used them for 2 years, I'm wondering should AGMs should be equalized or not? If you have accurate information from a reliable source on this subject, I would appreciate it if you could share what facts you know. Bob Kumza

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries-YES, mfgr says

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11448
Like a number of others here, my AGMs have not been holding a charge for very long, and lately, not at all. I talked with Lifeline, and he said he thought that equalizing them would solve the problem. It was an eight hour process, and by holding the right-arrow on the RC7GS for 6 seconds, it goes into equalizing mode.
Since we were leaving for Arizona at the time, I ran the generator for 8 hours as we drove. By the way, my RC7 kicks out of equalizing mode after 3 hours, so you have to re-do the 6 second thing to put it back in. After 8 hours, turning off the gen, or unplugging/plugging back in shore power, if that is how you are powering the equalizing, stops the process.
In my case, it did not help at all, my batteries are DOA.
I have to have them replaced here in Phoenix, at Copperstate Batteries.

Bill Harris
03 Allure 30912

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11449
Dale:

Did you do it through the Silverleaf? Lifeline said to do it for 8 hours.
Mine seems to drop back to 13.6V in about an hour.
We have Magna 630 Number 6382 and the AGMs will not hold a charge. They float at about 13.6V but turn off the charger and they are at 12V (with the chasis battery switch off) and within 20 minutes 11.8V and the gen set starts. it is an all electric coach. I think the batteries are toast.

Any ideas?

John Drebick 05 magna 6382

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11453
Hello to all

We have done extensive testing with this battery problem on our coach as we were initially having the same problem- premature gen start, earlier than what we knew it should have been with the battery bank capacity and the amount of load we were using. After extensive research, testing, and numerous conversations with CC and Silverleaf, the problem with the premature gen start is not that the batteries are bad (although if you keep equalizing them too much they will be!) but that the Silverleaf total coach system and VMS is not getting accurate battery voltage information.
The Silverleaf gets its information on battery voltage from the inverter, not directly from the batteries. Under a light load (just lights, for example) the difference between the voltage Silverleaf "sees" and the actual battery voltage measure at the battery bank is about 0.2-0,4 V less than actual. However, under heavier loads, such as when using the microwave, a coffee pot, toaster, etc, the difference between the two can be as much as 1.2 volt!
In other words, the Silverleaf may "think" the batteries have dropped to 11.0 volts (which would be a nearly totally dead battery) but the battery voltage is actually 12.0 or higher. The generator does not need to start at all.
We have Affinity 6400 and we had an additional two house batteries installed so that we calculated could get probably 18-20 hours of normal use without the generator coming on. We were experiencing genstart after about 10 hours of low overnight use when we began to use kitchen appliances in the morning. We knew there was no way with 1500 amp hours of battery capacity that the batteries needed to recharge after such minimal usage. So we did the following:
After knowing we had a full charge on the batteries, we unplugged from 50 amp and measured the voltage at the batteries at 12.67. The Silverleaf said the battery voltage was 12.0. Then we started the coffee pot, toaster and microwave. The Silverleaf fell immediately to 11.5, which would have started the generator except we had disabled it. However, the actual battery voltage was 12.32. In fact, during this five minute period, the Silverleaf went as low as 11.3, but the actual never went below 12.32, and generally was in the 12.45 range. As soon as all the appliances were turned off, the actual voltage went back up to 12.67 and the Silverleaf went back up to 11.8.
Country Coach and Silverleaf are very aware of this problem, and a fix is available. Silverleaf can modify their system to read the battery voltage directly from the battery instead of the inverter with just a different connection and a minor software update. If enough of us complain often enough, they will get busy and solve the problem. You need to measure your battery voltage with a volt meter at the batteries and compare this to the Silverleaf readings under light and heavy loads, and write it down and report it to Country Coach and to Cory at Silverleaf. Complain loudly!
Since the generator is the single item which requires the most frequent regular maintenance on the coach, I certainly don't want mine to run any unnecessary hours!

John Lewellyn
Affinity 6400

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11456
John, I havent equalized the batteries on this coach.
Lifeline told me to do that on my 02 Affinity. It should only be done once every 12 to 18 months. What is yous new coach #? Your batteries are under full warranty, have them replaced AFTER doing what John L. suggested. I am going to check mine also. Dale Hollick (at the factory for service)

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11459
John,

Has your Silverleaf TCS system been fixed? If so, can you provide an update on how the voltage readings are now. I have never heard of a battery monitor not running a shunt to the battery bank and instead going to the inverter to find the battery voltage. I assume you have an 05 Affinity?

Barry

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11460
Barry-

No, it is not fixed, because Country Coach is not really addressing the issue. Actually, there is not really anything "broken" in the TCS-- it is just getting bad data. The TCS plugs into the Xantrex inverter via a "telephone jack" on the inverter. Xantrex tells me that their metering of voltage through this jack is not very accurate and not a good way for TCS to get its data. Also, the TCS software only looks at the voltage for 15 seconds before making a determination on whether to start the generator. With such a large battery bank, it is more usual in the industry for there to be a 10 minute delay before starting the generator due to low voltage.
In short, there are two problems going on. First is the bad data the TCS is receiving from the inverter. Second is the TCS software, which looks for only 15 seconds instead of the usual ten minutes before starting the generator. If more of us would complain to CC, instead of just one or two of us who have addressed this with them, I think we could get a resolution.

John Lewellyn
05 Affinity #6400

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11462
John,

When I questioned Silverleaf earlier this year on how they measured current usage, etc. on an all electric Magna/Affinity, I didn't receive the detailed answers that I expected. Since I was also interested in the glass dash, they said I could see one when I came out to take a factory tour. But when I arrived in Junction City, I was told by Silverleaf I needed to make an appointment months in advance to drive up and see their products.

Barry

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11463
Barry-

I don't have the digital dash. They measure current by means of rings inside the Surgeguard transfer switch and the output from the transfer switch passes through these current-measuring rings. The communication port in the Surgeguard has a port which allows the transfer switch to communicate to the Silverleaf TCS. As for seeing their office, there's not much to see. They don't manufacture anything

Thread length - way too long

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11466
Hi Guys,

I think it would be in the best interests of all the members that threads be limited to say 3 responses. After that go directly to the person or persons you are communicating with. Much of this information has been covered in the 2000-6000s messages. Get out your two binders and schematics especially the big foldouts and do some research first.
Tell us the solution rather than giving us a blow-by-blow account - we've been through it.

About 50% of the treads contain misinformation.
Joe

Re: Thread length - way too long

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11467
Ha-ha! You'd get blasted for a post like this on the usenet newgroups where bandwidth means nothing! As far as they're concerned every post should contain the entire history of the original post with the most current response at the bottom - or you get your head handed to you!

Interesting on how the different presentation board audiences feel!

Dave

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11492
You do not need to equalize any battery as long as you do not run them down and you take good care of them. We have never equalized any battery and we get about 4 years out of the standard CCI battery. I think equilizing batteries is dangerious and I will not do it to gain a little battery life, when the proper battery care will do the same thing.

Bill G. 2005 Magna #6425

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11497
IMHO it isn't any more dangerous than filling your gas tank.... in fact less dangerous as long as care is taken to insure the compartment door is open so venting can occur. Just like at the gas pump you need to be around to shut the equalize process off after a few hours. Most control panels have the setting to equalize and if it were dangerous I doubt the mfgr would place themselves at such a high risk if were dangerous.
Over time .... all batteries can benefit from equalizing to get the sulphate build up off the plates. Less use extends the time they could use equalizing. The extended life when equalizing can be doubled or more... again, depending on use. Golf cart batteries are designed to be run down and used if you don't .... you could use the typical 12v auto batteries.

Skip

==========

You do not need to equalize any battery as long as you do not run them down and you take good care of them. We have never equalized any battery and we get about 4 years out of the standard CCI battery. I think equilizing batteries is dangerious and I will not do it to gain a little battery life, when the proper battery care will do the same thing.

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11503
Skip,

Filling your gas tank is also dangerous if you don't do it properly and turn off your frig while filling. I seen plenty of station fires from motorhomes. Ask the Flying J at Lazy Days. As for equalizing, how many people do you know that are willing to hang around for 8 hours and watch some batteries vent during equilazion. I don't recommend that the average driver equalize, but if you are good mechanically it's ok.

Bill G. 2005 Magna #6425

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11505
I don't know any and wouldn't want to hang around for eight hours to equalize either. There is no fast rule on how long it takes to equalize.... just opinions. Note that battery mfgrs don't specify a time and rightly so because the time varies by the state of the batteries which, they have no control. In practical terms a two to four hour equalizing intervals does a whole lot to perform an equalization process. But, that is subjective... again because defining the condition of the battery plates is not an exact science. Doing it two days, for a couple hours a day, while your around the MH is a reasonable alternative
My point being.... equalizing is not any more dangerous than many other maintenance items we do. The feature is there for a reason. Of course everyone is entitled to their interpretation of what is dangerous. By the same token, others are entitled to disagree. My preference is to provide some rational for my reasoning as to why it is dangerous verses a blank statement that it is not. Eight hours to perform equalization is not one of my beliefs unless I know I was dealing with some very bad batteries.... I would plan to replace them in that case.

Skip
-----

Filling your gas tank is also dangerous if you don't do it properly and turn off your frig while filling. I seen plenty of station fires from motorhomes. Ask the Flying J at Lazy Days. As for equalizing, how many people do you know that are willing to hang around for 8 hours and watch some batteries vent during equilazion. I don't recommend that the average driver equalize, but if you are good mechanically it's ok.

Bill G.

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11506
To all regarding equalizing batteries;
As a long term boater I have always used this function to maintain the health of our deep discharge battery banks and do the same with our battery banks on the coach. I have added a link to the West Marine Advisor on battery charging, which I find to be very reliable information. Those of you that have access to the West Marine catalog may their West Advisor sections very useful with the text and drawings (and it can be accessed on the web site).
West Marine: West Advisor
Maintenance is the key to having more pleasure from our pleasure crafts (coaches).

Tom

2000 Magna 5764
1999 CRV toad

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11536
John, and all others involved in this discussion.

I have a Magna (6477) on order and was concerned about this whole battery matter. I went to engineering and to customer service with the issue, saying that I want to make sure that any or all modifications were included in my coach. CC's response to me was the following:---

We completed testing a coach here and did not find the condition that Mr. Lewellyn has listed. Everyone must understand that coach 6400 is a special order and has additional batteries. The addition of the batteries across the bay from the main bank and the additional connectors may be contributing to the issue with this coach. Mr.
Lewellyn has stated that he is going to complete the testing that I am recommending so that we can find the root cause of the issue with his coach. The battery bank testing shows that the standard or all electric option coaches do not have the problem which 6400 seems to have.

--------------

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11537
Hi to all, the other issue that has not been mentioned is the fact that the new TCS Silverleaf does not show amp hours in the batteries. Nor does it show the bulk, accept, float charge rate so it is just a guessing game as to how long to run the generator when dry camping. I like to know how many amp hours are available and when they fully charged. Dale Hollick 05 Affinity 6370

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11540
Your right on Dale.... with a Link 1000 they put a "shunt" on the negative post of the house batteries between the battery and the cable to the power service for the MH. Across this shunt they have leads that go back to the Link controller. This shunt has engineered current flowing through it when anything in the coach sucks power. These leads measure that current flow. The Link does the math for current, across the shunt, going in when charging and coming out when drawing power. You program in the capacity of your batteries which the controller ads/subtracts the current flow. It does do other things and this is a layman's explanation of how it does that. It is a better way to show battery draw.
Measuring voltage is not the best way to determine the state of your batteries and is just an indicator. Bad/weak cells can provide a voltage reading that won't reflect the cells ability to provide the current it is designed for. That's why the gauges can say everything is OK but, a load test, which is really a current demand test, can show the batteries aren't performing to their spec. On new batteries you are probably OK but, when drawing them down a lot over time the current measurement method will be better.
I don't believe the Silverleaf measures current going in and current going out of the batteries unless there is a shunt on the coach batteries to measure across. Since it plugs into a control box up front I don't think it is set up for that...... but, I may be wrong.

Skip
======


Hi to all, the other issue that has not been mentionedis the fact that the new TCS Silverleaf does not show amp hours in the batteries. Nor does it show the bulk, accept, float charge rate so it is just a guessing game as to how long to run the generator when dry camping. I like to know how many amp hours are available and when they fully charged. Dale Hollick

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11544
Skip, the biggest issue to me is not knowing the state of charge. If these AGMs do not get a full charge when running the gen, it will likely shorten their life. Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions regarding this? Thanks, Dale Hollick 05 Affinity #6370

Re: Equalizing AGM batteries

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 11545
Dale,

If I can jump in again with a link to West Marine's advisor section on Smart Battery Charging I think that you and others may find some very useful information in this "Marine" battery charging advice. There are several very useful Advisor Sections in West Marine's web site and catalog that cross over to our circumstances. Check this link ....
West Marine: West Advisor
Tom

2000 Magna 5764
1999 CRV