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Hydro Hot Horrors

Yahoo Message Number: 35222
Tonight is Halloween and I put the last screws into the cover on the Hydro Hot on our 2004 Allure and closed the compartment door on a lengthy project. Now I can trouble shoot my right turn signal problem on the tow.
The saga began when we were considering buying the 2004 coach in the summer of 2006. I ran the VIN and found three recalls, one of which was on the Hydro Hot hydronic heater. Seems the combustion chamber could fail and lead to a fire. The dealer performed the recalls before purchase, so that took care of that. A redesigned combustion chamber was the fix and was covered by the manufacturer.
Then, last spring at a camp ground with high water pressure, I discovered water flowing out of the Hydro Hot compartment on the right side of the coach. When we got home I called the manufacturer, Aqua Hot Systems, Inc. in Colorado, formerly Vehicle Systems, Inc. The leak was in a pressure relief valve similar in function to that on a residential water heater. The valve is on the left side, or opposite side from the combustion chamber and is on the incoming water line. It was nearly impossible to get to and remove, but I managed to remove it finding that it had a lot of calcium in it. It was rated at 120 psi. I doubt the water pressure in the cg was that high, plus the Allure has a water pressure regulator. With shipping the part was about $55.00.
A few weeks ago we returned from a long trip to the CC rally in Oregon via the Canadian Rockies. About three weeks before we got home the heater quit. A red light was on at the electronic control panel indicating low boiler tank fluid. Aqua Hot Systems steered me to a "certified" facility in Missoula, MT, but it was not possible to speak directly with anyone there. You could only leave a phone number for them to call you back, and our cell phone did not work where we were in Canada. So, I decided to continue to top off the boiler tank with straight water to satisfy the low fluid cut off switch and keep the heater working. Without the heater we would have no domestic hot water, not an Rx for happy camping.
This strategy worked fine with every other day top offs to overcome the leak in the tank until the last night of the trip in Gadsden, Alabama. This time the float switch would not cancel the light and allow the heater to run. Pretty lucky I'd say to have made it to the last night of the trip.
Aqua Hot Systems had advised me that they thought the leak was a cracked 1/2 in nylon nipple (pipe) on the tank drain valve. They said they had seen a lot of this problem. I was concerned that the tank itself might be cracked and asked what my options were if that were the case. They replied that I would have to replace the entire heating unit with a rebuilt and swap them the core, "if we are taking cores at the time." The cost? Around $5,000.
Fortunately I found that the cracked nylon part was indeed the problem. I replaced the parts with brass as they advised, using a 31/2 in. long brass nipple and a water faucet type valve. I then added an adapter to reduce the outlet of the valve to some small clear flexible plastic tubing long enough to hang overboard if I ever needed to drain the tank. Again, the drain parts were very hard to get to and the nylon piece broke off in the tank. I had to use a large screw extractor to get the piece out. Another complicating factor is that the drain pipe is pretty close to the floor of the unit meaning I would have to use a valve that could rotate with clearance and be screwed on to the nipple and tank. Those hardware parts only cost about $15.00, but a lot of labor.
I then had to replace the malfunctioning float valve which had nylon threads as well. The replacement form Aqua Hot Systems is made of brass and cost me about $98.00 with shipping. The challenge with it was that two wires come out of the head, so how do I get a socket over the 7/8 in head? Aqua Hot advised buying an old deep well socket and sawing a slot in it for the wires to come out through. I was lucky and was able to get the wires to stuff into the deep well socket without taking the suggested drastic step.
The next step was to flush out the tank and system of base board heat exchangers that run throughout the coach. There was a tremendous amount of rust and sediment in the system. My guess is I must have flushed the system 20 times before I got it to the point where I thought it was reasonable to put in new boiler antifreeze solution.
The boiler fluid is difficult to find and expensive. The best option was to order two gallons from Aqua Hot Systems. I paid $20/gal for two gallons plus $20.00 for shipping. They said it couldn't come UPS; had to come FedEx. My system holds about 41/2 gals. I already had a half gallon on hand. The boiler antifreeze is polypropylene plus some corrosion inhibitors. So, why not use automotive polypropylene antifreeze you might ask? I think there is a regulatory issue with antifreeze that is used around domestic water supplies. Indeed, the incoming hot water line goes through a coil of copper tubing within the boiler - thus "endless hot water." Polypropylene is supposed to be non-toxic, right? Yes, but they say the corrosion inhibitors in automotive antifreeze are more concentrated, so potentially more harmful. So, the best solution: get robbed and use the special Camco boiler antifreeze mixed with distilled water in a 50/50 ratio.
Boy was I lucky I couldn't reach the certified repair facility in Missoula, MT. Can't imagine what all that would have cost me plus they wouldn't have taken the time to do all the flushing I did.
So, if you have the smaller heater which is called Hydro Hot as opposed to the larger one known as Aqua Hot, look on the side where the cover is. Remove the cover and look down low on the tank for a white nylon nipple and valve that looks like a toilet stop. If you see white, take flight. Your float valve fitting is probably nylon as well. Can't take the heat. Should be brass.
My heater is Model HHE-200-08E (E stands for engine heat), Serial: 800-685-4298.

George Harper
04 Allure Seaside
31093
Rome, GA

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35223
Maybe I shouldn't complain so much about my Hurricane heater. It can be trouble, but nothing like what you've been through. I understand your frustrations completely.
Rob

2002 Intrigue #11480

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35224
WOW George... Gordo here

What a PITA... Not a big fan of any diesel powered heat exchangers for many differing reasons. But before I forget, you had better replace your fuel output orifice for the burner every year with a new one.

One main reason I looked at models without these units only... Done the diesel powered heat exchangers on MoHo's and boats before. I really see no reason to have endless hot water in a MoHo. Water is a natural resource not to be wasted on endless showers, in a MoHo, no- less.

Not sure what the big draw is towards these very pricey units... Now if the manufactures did "real" radiant in floor heat exchange (in floor tubes) "throughout" (no fan use whatsoever to stir up dust) then that would be a different story. But they make us buy into having up to 4 extra trouble spots (radiators with two water lines and one fan) just to heat a rectangle box. They aren't even high tech boxes. These units have no idea when to power down (run at a reduced fuel rate) when you just want one area (zone) heated. They run full blast suppling water to all areas (zones) only shutting down fans to the areas you don't want or need heated. Great till you over temp a heat exchanger(s) not in use (no fan running to dissipate the hot water).

Why is it that MoHo manufactures always installed these units as if they'll never need any maintenance? Heck just a quick thumb through the owners manual will give most people the chills. And then once they open up the storage compartment and see where and how they are installed... It must be frightful for even the non faint, at heart.

They smell bad and are just as noisy as LPG powered heat exchangers (water heater/furnace). We've all had RV park neighbors running these diesel units towards our entertaining side (passenger side). So in closing... If you own one, it's not if it will fail... It's a matter of when you'll need plain old fashion hot water the most-!!
Not sure I buy into the special coolant needs. Don't they still build LPG water heaters that have a motor heat exchanger built into them??? I know I own one now, and have owned 5 MoHo's with these 3 way water heaters (LPG/110 volt/over the road heat exchanger from motor). I know you'd taste the sweetness before doing any harm to you or a loved one (I've had a unit go south and that sweet taste alerted me to the problem before costly repairs were in the cards). Total coolant BS and a sales ploy that seems to be working rather well..

Gordo

99 Allure 30344

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35225
I have had Aqua Hot in a SOB since 2001. Other than changing nozzel and fuel filter each year, I have had zero problems and I would not own a coach with out it. My thoughts. Joe Regenstein 2008 Megna limited #60851

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35227
Rob, Gordo

Yeah, I've heard the Hurricanes give a lot of trouble and were used mostly in marine applications.
Gordo, regarding the mfg's recommendation to change the fuel jet and filter once per year, I have to wonder if that is really necessary. I bought the parts, but I've decided to wait and listen to the burner. If it starts sputtering and puffing smoke I think that would be a good sign that the jet needs to be changed and I think that would give me adequate advance warning to get the job done.
In the case of the fuel filter, it has a translucent bowl, and until I see some sediment and/or water, I don't think I'll change that filter.
Since I was recently inside the box, I got a good look at the burner. I have instructions on how to change the jet and clean the combustion chamber, but boy is that thing going to be hard to access and work on.

George Harper
04 Allure Seaside
31093
Rome, GA

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35228
The boiler fluid is difficult to find and expensive. The best option was to order two gallons from Aqua Hot Systems. I paid $20/gal for two gallons plus $20.00 for shipping. They said it couldn't come UPS; had to come FedEx. My system holds about 41/2 gals. I already had a half gallon on hand. The boiler antifreeze is polypropylene plus some corrosion inhibitors. So, why not use automotive polypropylene antifreeze you might ask? I think there is a regulatory issue with antifreeze that is used around domestic water supplies. Indeed, the incoming hot water line goes through a coil of copper tubing within the boiler - thus "endless hot water." Polypropylene is supposed to be non-toxic, right? Yes, but they say the corrosion inhibitors in automotive antifreeze are more concentrated, so potentially more harmful. So, the best solution: get robbed and use the special Camco boiler antifreeze mixed with distilled water in a 50/50 ratio.



You MIGHT be able to find the special antifreeze at local boiler- plumbing companies. Or call a good local heating boiler contractor.
We used to use the same non-toxic in boilers with radiant heat in houses.

bill n barb--poconos of pa--1998 cc 40' prevost xl

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35230
George.... Gordo here.

Good idea to have these parts on hand. Not sure waiting till your unit starts to misbehave is going to work best for you. Knowing Murphy's law it will need replacement just as you have soap in your eyes or worse yet... A sore hip or shoulders that are going to get a workout just unscrewing the access door(s). I always found it best to replace these parts when my body (getting older ain't for sissies) was on the same page as my calendar. Not the opposite way around.

Just food for thought...

Gordo

99 Allure 30344

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35231
John,

Do you by any chance have the Ace order/part number? I tried my local Ace and they could not find it in their system.

John

04 Intrigue 11810

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35232
Gordo you hit the nail on the head perfectly.  Just waiting to hear the feedback from the folks that think it is the greatest feature in the world and you must be out of your tree.  Endless hot water, now thats a thought to scare me!
Ron 98 Allure 30185

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35233
Was listening to talk radio couple of weeks ago. The Sat AM plumbing broadcast on helping the do it yourself. The host was explaining that the builders are selling instant hot water in new homes. It's a very big money maker and based on repairs the average runs about $700.00. It made no sense to him as the basic hot water heater, tried and true works just fine.
I for one can sees no need for continuous hot water in a MOH.
AL

00 affinity #5851

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35237
Why don't they offer "on-demand" hot water systems in motor homes or maybe they do and I don't know about it.
Bob G

CC Wannabe

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35240
Wish I could hide in a tree when these diesel equipped units start to have problems (pretty handy guy here). Watching these poor people struggle with something as simple as finding a hidden fuse that shuts down the whole hot water show dead in it's tracks. Just went through this with a friends 06 Newmar Essex a few months ago while at an RV park. To think a 5 amp fuse was in a completely different non-related storage compartment and was "unmarked" had me wondering who's engineering our MoHo's??? Certainly not a person that would ever really use one-!! A well hidden 5 amp fifty cent fuse cost me and my good buddy, 6 hours from playing dominos and eating bad for you snacks and great beer. A fifty cent well hidden fuse mind you. All due to needing something as basic as hot water-!!

Ron in my world (I know it differs from most) somethings are best left alone. When a LPG only powered product pulls in next to diesel powered heat exchange unit and enjoys the whole weekend completely free of any problems (hum... having hot water and indoor heat always comes to mind) and others in their high tech units without any hot water... One has to stop and wonder... What is the true meaning of the MoHo lifestyle?

Certainly not how many air miles one can collect buying parts or having a service person trouble shoot and then repair it. Or even how many slide-outs one has or even if your body paint has the latest marbled airbrushed designs. In my world it's about enjoyment of getting there and once there... Hanging out with friends and meeting new ones, all the while not worrying about added problems I imposed on myself due to a sales pitch of endless hot water? auto satellite system?.

The MoHo manufactures have brainwashed us into thinking we have to stay indoors showering or watching TV for hours on end while doing boatloads of wash because we somehow miss the smell of Downey wafting as we exit our rigs to trouble shoot why we are washing with cold water instead of hot/warm. Heck I've seen travelers who only leave their units to go out for breakfast or dinner and the rest of the time they stay indoors, taking endless showers, watching TV and doing load after load of dirty laundry (one has to wonder how these people ever get dirty staying indoors?)

That's my story and I'm stick-en to it...

Gordo

99 Allure 30344

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35242
Gordo you have a great outlook on things and I guess I say that because it fits with the way I and my bride see things as well. Regarding your comment on the quality and thoughtfulness that goes into these rigs, well don't look for it to ever change. It's just the way it is. And it doesn't matter who the manufacturer is either. I have been in and around the heavy truck, auto and MH industry for forty years and that is how I draw my prespective. I also lead RV caravans to Mexico and Alaska each year and so I see all kinds of people and all kinds of rigs in daily use. I sometimes feel sorry for the luxury rigs since they have large and small issues constantly that keeps them from fully enjoying what they have paid for, both in the rig and the cost of the trip.
These trips are planned to be completely enjoyable and we as staff work as hard as we can to make it happen but when issues which are built-in can't be easily dealt with it is frustrating to say the least. We had a high end tandem pusher, all electric rig on our Alaska trip this summer and it was issues almost every day. He was really a great guy but you could sure sense the frustration. We thouroughly enjoy our older Allure and we are amazed at the level of comfort it gives us and we do spend about 6 to 7 months in it each year.
I think we enjoy the same things, dominos, junk food and a cold beer.
Life is good.
enjoy

Ron 98 Allure 30185

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35245
Bob,
The HydroHot is an 'on demand' hot water system. It make the water as you use it. There is no more than about a quart of hot water in the transfer coil. In houses this type of system associated with a forced hot water heating system is call tankless hot water. It is not very good in high usage demand applications. You can outrun it with kids taking showers and washing clothes at the same time.
There is a new breed of 'on demand" systems gaining popularity in the home construction industry. This hot water heater is not associated with the heating system but like gas and electric water heaters is a separate unit. What separates this unit in design is the fact that it has no holding tanks. Often fired by gas with a very large burner (100.000 btus/hr or greater) it makes hot water as you need it. The economy touted comes from the fact that there is no tank to keep hot when there is no demand for hot water. I have not see a system of this type for motorhomes yet.
As for my reason for being a big proponent of Hydronic heat, I have had an assortment of RV's over the last 30 years including three 40 ft Country Coach Allures. The latter of two of these had/have Hydronic Heat. The heat is steadier with less temperature swing, It is not as dry, and we gained space without all the heater ducting. As for the "on demand" hot water, it eliminates any worry over usage timing like consecutive showers right after doing dishes. If need be I can have the HydroHot completely shut down over night and through the next day and start it up and be in the shower within 5 minutes. I will admit that a lot of this is unnecessary luxury for a lot of RV users but when you full time and live in it 365 per year it gets a little more meaningful. This is particularly true for us because we often volunteer in some pretty cold places during the winter. My least favorite way to heat when the temps are not too low is the overhead heat pumps. Seems like my head is always boiling and my feet are freezing.
Don Seager
2004 Allure 31046

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35246
Ron, I am interested in your trips to Alaska. Please email me off list if you would with information.

Jim Hill

Re: ///Camco Boiler Antifreeze

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35249
I bought 6 gallons at the True Value Hardware in Junction City for $12.99 per gallon. They told me any True Value could order it. I haven't been able to find it any cheaper than that.

Kevin

05 Intrigue
11886

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35250
Ron,

I don't think it's the greatest feature in the world but we get it serviced and cleaned at every FMCA rally by the Hydro Hot Tecks for free. HH has worked perfect for 4 years plus our 05 Magna has an additional 10 gal electric HWH to handle those great hot showers. Besides the more you wash your hands in hot water, the safer you are from other problems. Now for those who have the Hurricane HH units things are different. They had nozzle problems and needed to be used weekly. I don't believe Huricanes are made anymore.

Bill G. 2005 Magna #6425

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35259
Bill... Gordo here.

Quote
Hi Gordo

You can tell my name from my address unless you don't like technology either.
I don't use my Coach to sit in the woods so you will not have a problem with smelling my laundry, in fact I take most of it to the local cleaners, it helps the economy and saves energy. We like RV resorts and traveling around the country. We spend most of our evenings dining out and taking in local attraction. We may be old but not dead. We have set around the fire for 40 years and we have never owned a coach with an outside TV, it distrubes the neighbors more then a properly maintained Hydro Hot, we may be old but not dead.

Bill G. 2005 Magna #6425

Bill the rules of this message board is to sign ones name and year and number of CC.... Now if you want to skip the rules, well that's your option. But by no means makes me a technology mute by any stretch of the word (not my gig to guess at email addresses for underling meanings of peoples names, coach # or model).

By no means does old age entitles anyone to missing out on Mother natures finest feat... Fresh air, landscapes beyond belief and blue skies. I've been RVing since the age of 1 (now 51) so I have a rather fair idea of what MoHo-ing/outdoor experiences does for ones inner senses. To deny others of your lifelong experiences should NOT be age related. I'm sure you both have many wonderful and heartwarming stories to share with others (hard to do when indoors and others are outdoors, so you might as well be invisible... Not dead)

As I age, I continue to met older folks then myself, who still enjoy kicking my butt at dominos while sharing great life stories. Keeping the brain working counting numbers, albeit either dominos or cards or board games seems to have a direct relationship in a persons lust for life. Doing so also keeps ones brain cells connected and sharper.

Never stated you were dead... Only that you might want to share yourselves with others. Tough writing on my part for you to find this hidden agenda... But it did bring you out into the open. Try sharing yourselves with younger people... You might be pleasantly surprised by the outcome (most have bug spray and some might even have a battery operated fan).

Gordo

99 Allure 30344

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35260
You think you have had issues with diesel heat. In my two previous coaches, I had 12 sail switches replaced, 4 circuit cards,. leaks repaired, regap the ignition points and clean continually and most importantly so many flame outs in moderate to high winds I couldn't count. Then that happened all the wiring to the different components had to be replaced. One was an Atwood the other a Suburban as I recall. Thanks for bringing up all the bad memories. My only real problem with my hydro-hot was tech error which CC fixed for me even though it was Beaudry's fault. Then the other problem was my fault; I let the antifreeze concentration get to high which caused a dip in the water temp until the burner came on. After draining off a gallon and a half and installing distilled water to return the mixture to the correct balance my problem went away. So now I don't worry about wind blowing and the heater failing to work 1 trip out of 3+ times in an 16 year period. TWI 85 Airstream Limited and 98 Allure 30255. Now 2004 Intrigue 11731

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35262
George,

BTW, you know a Hurricane and a Hydro Hot are two different products made by different companies. You are right that the Hurricane is used in marine applications. It is also supposedly more efficient that Hydro Hot: 1/3 gph at full blast constant (I have never measured it) but the little flame is white hot. I wish everything in RV's was up to real marine standards! Other than having to replace the crappy fuel pump with a totally new design, since then it has been utterly reliable. Also, no need for special coolant, since the engine coolant flows right through it, and it heats my 10 gal. hot water heater as it runs. No propane in the morning for showers! Also heats the coach and the hot water tank off of the engine heat when driving. Can also be updated for "endless" hot water for not much. Who needs endless hot water anyway? I suppose if you have 3 or 4 people in there you might. But then you need endless water.

Rich

2002 Magna 6148

Re: Hydro Hot checking antifreeze

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35263
Hi all,

In a post ago there was talk about to much anti freeze in the HH. Has anyone ever checked the concentrate % in the HH?
When I take a shower with the HH, I turn it on and let it cycle, then turn it off. Then we can get one shower out of the HH before it goes cold. So it must hold more than a quart. Maybe to save water I can talk my wife into taking a shower with me? Na never will happen. I am happy just to be clean camping.

John 31060

Re: Hydro Hot checking antifreeze

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35270
John,
 
The HydroHot will make hot to warm water as long as the boiler jacket remains hot. However there is never any more water inside the boiler heater exchange coil than about a quart. As you draw water it comes in one end of the exchanger coil cold but heat is transferred from the boiler antifreeze fluid through the copper tubing so that the water comes out the other end hot. This process will cool of the boiler antifreeze unless the oil burner or electric element is running. It is the latent heat held by the 5 gallons of antifreeze in the boiler that keeps the water hot coming for much more than just the stored quart. The AquaHot boiler hold around 15 gallons so it will produce hot water longer without the burner running than a HydroHot.
 
I know that you dry camp a lot but when hooked up to power the electric element will do just what you are doing without ever running the burner. The electric element does not have anywhere near the heating capacity of the burner so even with it on the boiler will go cold if there is any sizable demand for hot water such as a shower.
 
BTW I did watch my engine temps coming down from NH and it ran from 185 to 210 depending on load conditions. The weather was in the upper 80s.
 
Don Seager

Re: Hydro Hot Horrors

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 35275
We have Hydro Hot in our 2004 Allure. About 5 minutes before we want to shower, we turn on the diesel boiler. Heats up quickly and enough hot water for both of us to shower. If we need more, we flip to electric and we have more than enough. We have had 5 people in our motorhome taking showers with no problems. We camped in Oklahoma City in 16 degree icy and snowy weather and our Hydro Hot kept our motorhome toasty warm with plent of hot water.

Lonny & Diane Livingston