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Norcold 1200 Recall

Yahoo Message Number: 68922
To All Country Coach Owners:

Anyone that still needs the Norcold 1200 Recall (Thermal Switch) I have some in stock that I can ship to you. Feel free to contact me.

Kevin Waite (Former Country Coach Service Tech.) K&M Mobile R.V. Repair LLC
95430 Noraton RD.

Junction City, OR. 97448
541-998-8132 (Home)
541-953-6162 (Cell)

kvn.wt.7629@...

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68926
Jim:

The Recall is for the following:

Norcold Model #1200, #1201, #1210 & #1211
Refrigerator Serial #315525 to #1308811 With Cooling Unit Serial #700000 to #13085759

Kevin Waite (Former Country Coach Service Tech.) K&M mobile R.V. Repair LLC
95430 Noraton Rd.

Junction City, OR. 97448
541-998-8132 (Home)
541-953-6162 (Cell)

kvn.wt.7629@...

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68927
To be on the safe side, I'd assume all the Norcold 1200 LRIM cooling units are on recall. Norcold had an initial recall a while back. Our frig's cooling unit didn't fall within the recall serials numbers. Stupidly we figured no problems. You can check out this link:

http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68#Post68 Later Norcold issued a second recall which put our frig in trouble. I understand the second recall means a recall to the first batch of recalls too. In other words, a recall of recalls. IMHO, this is dangerous business and too much caution can't really be exercised. I found an interesting PDF which has been included in my link. It explains the gas absorption cooling units in fine detail and describes the combustion event(s) that makes this so serious. The one photo of our cooling unit boiler is a little on the frightening side. Yours might very well look just like ours. Copper tubing can't be used because it reacts with ammonia. The boiler contains a water and ammonia mixture. Steel tubing is used and sodium chromate is added as a corrosion inhibitor. Water corrodes steel. I'm told by those more knowledgeable than me than Norcold uses thin wall steel tubing which rusts quicker. Eventually this rusting action eats through the tubing wall allowing ammonia, water and sodium chromate to escape. Owing to insulation wrapped around the boiler this can't be easily inspected, seen and detected in its early stages. You might smell ammonia or you might not. This is sort of pot luck.

On the Allure, the frig compartment contains flammable materials like wood, plastic and styrofoam insulation. All of it right near the burner/heaters. The cooling unit is under considerable pressure in the range of 375 PSI. This significantly elevates the boiling point of the water/ammonia mixture to 400-450F. The cartridge heaters running at these temperatures can create a combustion event. The results are you can burn down your bus and maybe your neighbor's bus too. Stainless steel should have been used but the market is too cheap to pay the price. And I ask how much is the recall costing? Does it fix the problem or merely put a band aid on it? Should you experience a serious fire, what is the cost of that? It seems to me all of this makes the stainless steel pretty inexpensive.

Luckily for us our cooling unit failure resulted in a NoCo error code and nothing worse. You may or may not be so lucky. We replaced our cooling unit with the Pines RV Refrigeration unit. It seems to be better made and they claim it uses thicker wall tubing. It comes with a 5 year warranty which still doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. It took us 15+ hours to do the repair which I documented in a previous posting. My advice is to inspect your cooling unit and treat this situation with the caution and respect it demands.

At 05:51 PM 3/2/2011, you wrote:

Quote
>

Go to this web page

http://www.norcoldrecall.com/>http://www.norcoldrecall.com/ >put in the information and it will tell you what you need to know.

Jim

07 Allure #31570

In

Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com, >"Jim Hill" wrote:
>

> Hi Kevin,
>

> Not sure that I knew of this recall, thus, I don't know if it > > affects my coach or not. How do I find out? > >

> Jim Hill
>
>
>

> From:

Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Waite > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 13:03 > > To:

country-coach-owners@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Norcold 1200 Recall > >
>
>
>
>

> To All Country Coach Owners:
>

> Anyone that still needs the Norcold 1200 Recall (Thermal Switch) I have > > some in stock that I can ship to you. Feel free to contact me.
>

> Kevin Waite (Former Country Coach Service Tech.) > > K&M Mobile R.V. Repair LLC
> 95430 Noraton RD.

> Junction City, OR. 97448
> 541-998-8132 (Home)
> 541-953-6162 (Cell)
> kvn.wt.7629@...
>

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon)

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68928
Jim:

The Recall is for the following:

Norcold Model #1200, #1201, #1210 & #1211
Refrigerator Serial #315525 to #13088811 With Cooling Unit Serial #700000 to 13085759

Kevin Waite (Former Country Coach Service Tech.) K&M Mobile R.V. Repair LLC
95430 Noraton Rd.

Junction City, OR. 97448
541-998-8132 (Home)
541-953-6162 (Cell)

kvn.wt.7629@...

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68929
Boy, I sure am getting tired of RV refrigerator recalls aimed at fixing serious and quite possibly, deadly product failures simply because some bean counter says end user safety is not cost effective! Every RV I've had (trailers & MoHo's), has had to go into the shop for refrige recalls whether it was a Dometic or Norcold. The fact that there are shops out there who

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68930
Bill,

I'm not sure the recall accomplishes its purpose. Treating symptoms instead of dealing with the disease itself isn't smart remediation. In the meantime, it's best if our community is extra cautious when operating a gas absorption cooling unit made by an irresponsible manufacturer. Knowledge and awareness, as in most cases, become valuable tools in our plight for safety.

Gas absorption cooling units came into being as a result of needing refrigeration in the absence of electric power. The energy to move the refrigerant and thus start the cooling cycle is heat for gas absorption cooling units. If AC isn't available to run the cartridge heaters, propane can easily become the energy source. If one's usage pattern always places them where AC power is available, a freon/compressor refrigerator is going to be fine. Could inverter power be used to run a freon/compressor refrigerator? That's a good question.

Answering that question involves

exploring several details. Freon based refrigeration units use a compressor to move the refrigerant through an expansion valve. They may also include a fan to blow air over the condenser coils, defrost heaters and ice maker heater. All of these require AC power. In residential refrigerators the compressor motor would be a single phase induction motor with a starting winding and perhaps a starting capacitor. This allows the motor to start under a load. The fan motor would most likely be a shaded pole induction motor. Defrost and ice maker heaters are simple resistive loads. Inverters come in three flavors, 1-square wave, 2-modified square wave, 3-pure sine wave. Category one is cheapest and category 3 is the most expensive with category 2 being somewhere in the middle. All of us here know that microwave ovens don't run well on anything other than a pure sine wave. This could also be true for other appliances like freon/compressor based refrigerators. AC induction motors (capacitor start and shaded pole) are designed to run from pure sine wave power sources. The heating effect of defrost heaters is also based on a sine wave power source. If you don't have a pure sine wave inverter then you don't have the power source the appliance was designed to operate on. Could you get away with using a square wave or modified square wave? Perhaps but not without potential problems in my opinion. The first being a voided warranty on the compressor and electronics.

Another consideration is power

requirements. The first is handling the starting winding of the compressor motor. This is a high current winding that bursts the motor with a high strength magnetic field that starts the rotor spinning in the stator's rotating magnetic field. After this initial "start" or push the motor comes up to speed and delivers rated torque to the load. An inverter would need to handle this current inrush to start the motor. How well an inverter handles surge currents would need to be taken up with the manufacturer. You'll need to know the characteristics of the load's inrush currents and whether they fall within the inverter's power output ratings. Maximum steady state current would occur after the compressor motor starts and the refrigerator runs. It should include the defrost heaters, condenser fan(s) and ice maker heater. If you wanted to split watts, lighting, electronic controls and timers should be included. This number should be on the refrigerator's data plate expressed in amps. (For reference, the Norcold 1200 draws just under 5 amps of AC to run its cartridge heaters. All other circuits run on native 12 VDC.) I don't know what the Samsung refrigerator draws but let's say it's 6 amps. That's a 750 watt load! As a rough ballpark number which excludes inverter inefficiency, every amp of AC power translates to 10X that on the DC side. You're 6 amp AC load then becomes a 60 amp load on your house battery bank. How long can your batteries deliver 60 amps? Can they be recharged before the next refrigeration cycle? What power will be used to recharge them? Our bus has a 200 amp alternator so over the road this wouldn't be a problem. When parked with no AC power I'd have some

concerns. Batteries also cost money and putting them through charge/discharge cycles shortens their life.

If AC is available and for almost all of us it is, I'd say a residential refrigerator makes sense. Although ammonia is considered the ideal refrigerant, DuPont made lots of money selling freon because of its safety. The safety track record of freon based refrigeration units goes without question. It's good we have an alternative to gas absorption refrigerations and several out there have shown us the way.

At 06:56 AM 3/3/2011, you wrote:

Quote
>

Boy, I sure am getting tired of RV refrigerator >recalls aimed at fixing serious and quite >possibly, deadly product failures simply because >some bean counter says end user safety is not >cost effective! Every RV I've had (trailers & >MoHo's), has had to go into the shop for refrige >recalls whether it was a Dometic or Norcold. The >fact that there are shops out there who >

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68932
Great summary Scott. I had something to add regarding the energy ussage of the Samsungs.
I got fed up with the norcold problem and replaced my 1200LRIM with a Samsung that almost fit perfectly except for adding a few inches to the vertical cabinet height. I also installed 1000 amp hours of batteries ( 4x8D with 500 usuable at 50%DOC). I can go about 36 hours without recharging. It takes about 15 amp hours of DC current running the compressor for about 20 mins an hour. I was plesantly surprised at the draw rate of a 17 cu foot compressor refrigerator with LED lighting and two independant cooling zones (freezer and refrig are independantly cooled on different thermostats, electronically). So I would assume that running on the 200 amp alternator is over kill for keeping up with this refrigerator draw going down the road. Scott you mentioned 60 amp draw DC and that is way over reality for these samsungs. 15 amps for 20 minutes an hour is what I am finding over my shunt.
The conversion cost seems to be the major factor in converting to residential for most RV'rs. It can't possibly be that these Norcolds make more sense to have in a motorhome even if you are pluged in allthe time. But I don't think it has to be.
I spent $300 having the cabinet enlarged. Replaced all four 8D batteries with AGM batteries (did not have to but wanted to) $1800. Replaced the original 1800 modified sine wave inverter with a 2800 watt Magnum pure sine wave inverter (according to samsung this was not required but I have other electronics that do not like MSW) $1400. The refrigerator cost $1200. Add it all together and it still cost less than a new norcold and I do not worry about the GO BOOM AFFECT! My wife was freaked out about having a gas flame anywhere besides on the stove top.
I did all the work except for the cabinet enlargement. Less than five hours to take out old refrig and put in new refrig using a side window (do it yourself with one other person) to bring refrig in. Did not have to remove windshield.
I could have gone cheep and replace batteries with flooded $600 and keep the MSW inverter and It would have cost $2100 for the conversion.
Either way I have a very nice refrigerator that always keeps the same temp I set it at and it hold so much more food in the freezer and is easy to get to. I love the side by side with the freezer pull out below. Easy to store and retrieve food and very energy efficient. If I added solar panels I would never need to hook up to the grid. I am sure that the resale value of this option is worth the expenditure given that many consumers are becoming aware of the drawbacks to having gas units.
15 amp hours on the inverter is all the household samsung refrigerator draws for 20 minites and hour. Do the math, with normal lighting and microwave use, it will take at least 24 hours to kick on the generator for about and hour to recharge the AGM batteries that love to take heavy and fast charges. Ok I forgot to add the $4/day of diesel to charge the batteries, still less than paying for hookup at a trailer park or running the motorhome on the freeway for 7 miles.
There are a few other CC owners that have converted over to the Samsung household refrigerators before I did and I have not heard one complaint except for why they did not do it sooner.
Most importantly, the conversion made a world of difference to my wife. The motorhome is no different than the kitchen at home now to her. Well I still had to put a dishwasher and garbage disposal in it but that was the icing on the cake.

Dallas 2004 intrigue ovation 42 tag c12 11688

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68933
Dear Bill and Kim,

Our Allure came with the residential refrigerator. We do not have to run the generator while traveling, the unit does run off the inverter. We actually can go 24 hrs on the inverter alone, before we have to recharge the batteries. (Found that one out by accident :-))

Marta

07 Allure 31501

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68934
Dallas,

Thanks for clarifying the important details about the Samsung. My guess is more and more busses will just come with freon units from the factory. Insulation and microprocessor controls go a long way to keeping energy requirements to a minimum on the new products. As consumers we need to demand better and safer products. Those battles have already been waged and won with residential appliances. If your frig is pulling 15 amps on the DC side it's running on less than 1.5 amps AC. That's very little power! The Norcold heaters throttle down once the box is cold. Not sure what the frig idles at. Unlike a compressor unit the heaters run all the time but not at full power. I'd need an AC amps meter to quantify the current draw. I'm just glad the damn thing gets cold! Good on you for coming up with an option that we can all benefit from. No one wants to smell smoke unless it's a steak. At 10:59 AM 3/3/2011, you wrote:

Quote
>

Great summary Scott. I had something to add >regarding the energy ussage of the Samsungs.

I got fed up with the norcold problem and >replaced my 1200LRIM with a Samsung that almost >fit perfectly except for adding a few inches to >the vertical cabinet height. I also installed >1000 amp hours of batteries ( 4x8D with 500 >usuable at 50%DOC). I can go about 36 hours >without recharging. It takes about 15 amp hours >of DC current running the compressor for about >20 mins an hour. I was plesantly surprised at >the draw rate of a 17 cu foot compressor >refrigerator with LED lighting and two >independant cooling zones (freezer and refrig >are independantly cooled on different >thermostats, electronically). So I would assume >that running on the 200 amp alternator is over >kill for keeping up with this refrigerator draw >going down the road. Scott you mentioned 60 amp >draw DC and that is way over reality for these >samsungs. 15 amps for 20 minutes an hour is what I am finding over my shunt.

The conversion cost seems to be the major factor >in converting to residential for most RV'rs. It >can't possibly be that these Norcolds make more >sense to have in a motorhome even if you are >pluged in allthe time. But I don't think it has to be.

I spent $300 having the cabinet enlarged.
Replaced all four 8D batteries with AGM >batteries (did not have to but wanted to) $1800.
Replaced the original 1800 modified sine wave >inverter with a 2800 watt Magnum pure sine wave >inverter (according to samsung this was not >required but I have other electronics that do >not like MSW) $1400. The refrigerator cost >$1200. Add it all together and it still cost >less than a new norcold and I do not worry about >the GO BOOM AFFECT! My wife was freaked out >about having a gas flame anywhere besides on the stove top.

I did all the work except for the cabinet >enlargement. Less than five hours to take out >old refrig and put in new refrig using a side >window (do it yourself with one other person) to >bring refrig in. Did not have to remove windshield.

I could have gone cheep and replace batteries >with flooded $600 and keep the MSW inverter and >It would have cost $2100 for the conversion.

Either way I have a very nice refrigerator that >always keeps the same temp I set it at and it >hold so much more food in the freezer and is >easy to get to. I love the side by side with the >freezer pull out below. Easy to store and >retrieve food and very energy efficient. If I >added solar panels I would never need to hook up > > > >
> >
> >
>

> Best - Scott

> 2006 Allure 430 #31349
> (Bus-Stead Lemon)
>

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon)

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68935
This is always a fun kind of topic. When you have a manufacturer that has build a product with defects, ignored it, did as little on a small as volume as possible to keep it 'under control' (First Recall, very small range of serials.), get scared (not as scared as we should have been:)!) of law suits from someting minor like loss of life - let alone total RV's burning up, and then doing a second recall with a much larger (as in all) range of serials. The second recall, is a mickey mouse band aid, IMO.
The only company I know that has done such a poor job, was Workhorse, on how they ignored, then handled a problem...
Going residential is an option. And as you all know from researching this and reading this board, going new cooling unit is another option. It all depends on how you want to use RV, and your preference for still wanting the LP option.
I wanted the LP option, and I'm so far (fisrt big trip behind us), very pleased with the Amish cooling unit we installed. We still kept our SS-30 exntinquisher, second smoke alarm, and a total of three extra cooling fans available. The unit runs much colder in both the freezer and fridge, requiring loser settings. I have the standard fans working as usual, a solar panel exhaust, and then two other computer fans that I can turn on for hot extreme conditions.
The cost, including install, was about $1600. More, because I added extra fans. (Does not include the cost of the SS-30, as I had bought that for insurance earlier...)
Samsung has a good reputation. But, my new high end house fridge, had a part go out within the first two years (same with the double oven), both had components that had melted and could have cause a fire in our home kitchen. These were JenAir and Dacor appliances. I put a new GE fridge in my MIL home, within 16 months, it was out - and not worth repairing. I only say this recent three-four years of experience, becuase the old reliable 'home' fridges - are not what they used to be. (Again, Samsung has a good reputation, so hope they have much better quality and longer lives...)
Another factor for me keeping the 1200, with new cooling unit, was I did not want to add extra solar and battery capacity at this time. May later, but not just for the purpose of having a house fridge.
But, we all do things different, with different needs. I sure enjoy reading all of the tweaks many of you have done. Dallas's work in so many areas, are always a good read.
My best to you all, and to those of you that sent me info and PM's on the Amish unit - many thanks!!!

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68936
Since the Samsung website does not list the power requirement of the Model RF217ACRS a call was made to them.

I was told by whoever answered my call and putting me on hold for awhile, that the current draw was 11.6 amps

At 120 volts AC this is about 1392 watts.

1392 watts at 100% conversion is 116 amps at 12 volts.
At a 33% duty cycle (20 minutes / hour) a 500 Amp/Hour available 12 volt battery set should run about 13 hours with no other load applied.

Charlie

08 Inspire 52093

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68942
I recently had the lastest recall done. Its more involved than just a switch and requires cutting away the insulation from the boiler and some electrical work. The recall is free to all Norcold owners, so why fool with it. I think best left to a pro.

Jim Hodges

2007 Inspire 360, 51969

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68969

Get the serial number off the heat exchanger in the outside compartment and call Norcold.

Dave

aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68975
Thanks Marta, That's good to know. Appears that traveling from one location to another won't be a problem...

Bill

Intrigue #11881
 

Re: Norcold 1200 Recall

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 68976
Thanks alot Scott, for your detailed explaination. Excellent system breakdown.

Bill

Intrigue #11881