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Manufacturers responsibility

Yahoo Message Number: 5354
Since we are near to purchasing a used Intrigue, I have been browsing the messages as to what problems folks have had and how they have been fixed. While browsing I came sccross messages that were posted in March 2003 about problems that someone had with their 3 yr. old coach. It seems that CC was passing the buck on these items to the individual items manufacturer rather than jump in and help resolve the problem. In answer to his problems, someone claiming to be an RV salesman jumped all over him because he expected CC to help him with products that they had simply hung on the coach. He wondered why they or any other coach manufacturer should bear this burden when it was not their fault. Guess what. If any of these products installed on a coach by CC malfuntioned and caused a fatal accident, do you think CC wouldn't be liable along with the individual manufacturer? I remember what a man a met last year driving a Monaco exectutive said to me. He had quit boating and traded his boat almost even for the motorhome. He said that if they built a baot of that class to the same quality as a like priced coach, the company would be out of business very quickly.

One thing I have noticed is that newer isn't better in motorhomes.
John

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5357
You will read a lot of complaints on a site like this. Once in a while you will hear some good things about Country Coach. I've owned and been familiar with nine brands of Motorhomes and they all have had quality problems. Foretravel is the only brand that is hardly ever complained about. Newmar is probably in second place. Country Coach is above average in my opinion. I've owned three of them and they have all had quality problems. Country Coach has never refused to help resolve them, whether in or out of waranty. They have always treated me fairly and I have always treated them with respect. There can be exceptions though. You hear stories that CC will not correct something. There is no way to verify the stories and anyone can say anything on this forum. jerry in NM, '00 Magna.

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5359
John, I see you are near to buying a new Intrigue. It's probably none of my business, but Have you looked closely at an Allure and compared price? I owned two Intrigues, a 97 and a 2000, but now have an 03 Allure. It so happened I bought it at a CCI prerally in Georgia and the Allure and Intrigue were sitting side by side. The price difference was about $ 40,000, and when I asked to be shown where the difference was justified they just couldnt do it. The 30hp difference in the engines is negligible as the maximum torque is the same in both the 370 and 400. A couple of vertical opening bay doors, a little nicer stove top and a couple of simulated brass lamps vs. black ones is about all we could find. The refrigerator may be a little smaller, but I'm not sure. I swallowed my pride and "stepped down" to the Allure and have loved the coach for about 20,000 miles and 16 months.

Walt Rothermel
03Allure30811

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5360
I agree with your last statement that newer is not better in motorhomes.
Just fancier with more gadgets!

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:38:38 -0000 "tjf2000us" tjf2000us@...> writes:

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5361
Here is a response from a new CC owner who also has a boat [longer than the coach, and a whole lot heavier]. Our coach has had numerous problems and is currently residing back at the factory. Some of the problems were with equipment that was beyond CC control, i.e. a faulty Hurricane that burned. Others should have never been allowed out of the factory. The service from the dealer was between poor and non-existent. However, we are now dealing directly with the factory and they have been very supportive. In fact, the service so far has changed our attitude about CC. Hopefully the final outcome, which includes re-design of the Hurricane system, will be positive.
As to comparing with a boat, one advantage we expected with a coach was that we would not have to be totally self-sufficient with tools, parts and know-how. We joked about just driving a coach into a shop and having it fixed [vs. being stranded in the middle of nowhere on the boat]. I know the boat inside and out and now have very few problems with it. I doubt that I will ever get to that point with the coach, nor do I want to. One problem is that the coaches are far too complicated, despite having fewer systems and electronics than the boat. There is a mindset that more complicated is better--such as one thermostat to control three machines. The last time I talked to tech staff, they were excited about adding even more functions to the Silverleaf. Who has time to fiddle with that while keeping the coach on the road? So I am curious, does this break-in / break-down phase ever end?

Doug Allure 30929

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5364
A couple of observations. I bought a used 2000 Intrigue (11142) two years ago from a person who just drove it and changed the oil for 19,000 miles (actually 12,000 the factory put 7,000 on it). 2000 Intrigues we especailly troublesome in that many major design changes were rolled up into one new model year (suspension, engine), and National RV (the new owner) was pushing for higher profits by increasing factory output.

Realistically, whoever told you that dealing with the OEM was the way to go on components was doing you a favor. If the microwave in your new home fails I dounbt that you would trust a construction worker to repair it. CC really does not have the expertise to deal with all of the issues tha come up. In their attempt save labor costs they expect their employees to handle all parts of the coach and not specialize. "Jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind.
Additionally they have turnover like any other company and many of their best people go out to other positions.

I needed to get past what I thought they "should" do and cut to the chase. Talk to Damon at Guaranty, he will give you the straight scoop and will find you a "cream puff".

Ask yourself why a coach is being sold below market with low miles???
One word of advice is to question the seller closely about what they have done to the coach (especially getting out bugs). If nothing watch out! If the are conversant about issues and can explain how the problems were resolved you have a much better situation.

A service rep at a Fleetwood dealer told me that you have about 1 problem per $10,000 in purchase price. $300,000 = 30 problems. Their American coaches are nortoious for little nagging problems.

Some of us laugh and share that the only happy motorhome owners are those who bought one from an engineer who put 30,000 miles on it.
Many people just drive them and some do not even do routine service!!!

If you want to be super cautious and can get the rig to Junction City, take it to Carrier and Sons and have them go over it.

Unfortunately buying a new on is not a solution. I really believe that many of us are hypervigilant and others are oblivious to what is happening to the coach. Buy one from type A !!!!

Regards,

Chuck Gauthier

2000 Intrigue 11142 (currently behaving) 40' single slide
La Quinta, CA

Quote from: tjf2000us
Since we are near to purchasing a used Intrigue, I have been

browsing

Quote
the messages as to what problems folks have had and how they have > been fixed. While browsing I came sccross messages that were

posted

Quote
in March 2003 about problems that someone had with their 3 yr. old > coach. It seems that CC was passing the buck on these items to the > individual items manufacturer rather than jump in and help resolve > the problem. In answer to his problems, someone claiming to be an

RV

Quote
salesman jumped all over him because he expected CC to help him

with

Quote
products that they had simply hung on the coach. He wondered why > they or any other coach manufacturer should bear this burden when

it

Quote
was not their fault. Guess what. If any of these products

installed

Quote
on a coach by CC malfuntioned and caused a fatal accident, do you > think CC wouldn't be liable along with the individual
manufacturer?

Quote
I remember what a man a met last year driving a Monaco exectutive > said to me. He had quit boating and traded his boat almost even

for

Quote
the motorhome. He said that if they built a baot of that class to > the same quality as a like priced coach, the company would be out

of

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5366
The entire RV industry has been that way since Rvs were invented, and the home industry is the same way. this is not a CCI thing.

Bill G. 2001 magna #5998

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5367
I think it takes a year to get all the bugs worked out. We bought ours a year ago and have had all the nightmares of the Hurricane and others. But now things seem be to all working correctly... So there is light at the end of the tunnel. We love ours.. Gary '03Allure 30872 36ft '03 Acura MDX toad

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5369
-jerry in nm. i asked a 'Q' AND WHAT I GOT WAS YOU..........JERRY, IF YOU LIKE I WELL GIVE YOU NAMES, DATES, TIME, I CALLED.. YOU CAN CHECK IT ALL OUT FOR YOUSELF..MY E-MAIL ADD. DMG_ELAINEO2@... I BE GLAD TO TALK TO YOU . SO E-MAIL--ME.. IN NO WAY DID I SAY I WAS UNHAPPY WITH CCI IN OR. WE HAVE MADE A LOT OF FRIENDS THERE, AND THEY HAVE BEEN FAIR TO US IN THE PASTED, SO PLEASE E-MAIL ME, AND CHECK IT OUT IF YOU LIKE?? FOR ALL THE CC OWENER, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THIS NOT FOR YOU..WE BOTH LOVE OUR UNIT and ARE HAPPY CAMPERS , BUT CAN ANYONE HELP WITH THIS???????????? DAN 30498

In Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com, "gerald" wrote:

Quote
You will read a lot of complaints on a site like this. Once in a > while you will hear some good things about Country Coach. I've

owned

Quote
and been familiar with nine brands of Motorhomes and they all have > had quality problems. Foretravel is the only brand that is hardly > ever complained about. Newmar is probably in second place. Country > Coach is above average in my opinion. I've owned three of them and > they have all had quality problems. Country Coach has never

refused

Quote
to help resolve them, whether in or out of waranty. They have

always

Quote
treated me fairly and I have always treated them with respect.

There

Quote
can be exceptions though. You hear stories that CC will not

correct

Quote
something. There is no way to verify the stories and anyone can

say

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5371
Well, I hate to take exception to your opinion of new homes Bill, but you are not dealing with the correct home builders. I have been in the industry for over 40 years and we do not deliver homes with anything near the degree of problems that seem to be common in the coach industry. I haven't purchased a new boat yet, but am considering one now. I do not believe boats suffer the same level of flaws. Of course, a boat does cost more than our Allure. Are the coach problems greater in the cheaper models?

Doug Allure 30929

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5375
Well said, Jerry. Foretravel is good but their coaches are BA.. Newmar will fix anything, and they have a lot to fix. I never have a problem getting anything fixed by CCI but it required building up a relationship with people at CCI and Lazy Days. It also requires not bitching about every little thing and reading the manual. And sometimes you have to pay for something you don't think you should pay for to keep the relationship going.

Bill G. 2001 Magna

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5376
Bill,

As a previous Foretravel owner, what does BA mean?

"Foretravel is good but their coaches are BA"

Tom

02 Allure 30780

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5380
I agree with many of the things that have been said. I did a lot of research before purchasing this 2000 Magna and the main reason was Country Coach's reputation. And I have to say that they have delivered in SPADES! Long story short-I purchased my Magna used from a private party. WE talked for hours and hours. I saw pictures and we agreed to meet in Seffner and I faxed Lazy Days a 4 page list of things to go over. They knew the coach since the previous owners purchased it there. I have had a flawless year with a very few minor irritating issues. Doug Rutherford and the CC tech's have taken incredible care of my coach and I have never had a breakdown of any type anywhere. I have spent many hours in conversations or emails with several people at CC on issues of interest or concern.
They always took time to reply, call or explain and try to diagnose and fix. And my coach is a 2000! And I am the 2nd owner!Really I could go on and on about many specific examples of great service I have gotten from them. ( By the way... EVEN FORETRAVEL owners have nightmare stories... I have heard some doozies.)
I have never seen anyone who treated them with respect, get anything but respect and good service from them. Some people you hear complain don't always tell you how things were finally resolved, nor will people readily admit if they made a mistake and CC came through. Some people just like to complain. Some people have more problems because they haven't taken the time to read the manuals or learn the systems and proper maintenence. How many of those problems did they cause? We will never hear about that. But I have met them... and they are scary. I am sure the CC techs could tell some stories...

Just like any customer service oriented business, if a customer approaches a rep, or techs with an angry, accusatory, disrespectful manner, I am sure they may not get the red carpet treatment. Not every problem can be solved as easily or as quickly as we would like. Even rocket scientists and brain surgeons don't have all the answers. These guys are only human.
I am sure like every human endeavor, there are improvements that can be made in the factory quality control, time management of the shop or in processes of diagnosis and communication of problems, but these are things every business must be constantly working on as personel changes and market changes occur. Sometimes it is the luck of the draw and the particular technician trying to diagnose the problem. Just think of all the models, options, all the different systems and all the yearly vendor changes they have to know intimately to be able to diagnose problems per the customer's unique explanation and communication.

If newer was not considered better by a lot of consumers, CC would go out of business and we would all have "Classics" on our hands! Bite your tongue! If you think older is better- go get a GMC classic! If you don't want or need the bells and whistles and new techie toys on the newer coaches- Buy an INSPIRE! Or buy an older coach- well loved.

I think for the most part, improvements and additions are made in newer models that enhance an owners experience. I chose not to go to an older model Magna because of the options and the quality of some specific components on this model year. Now I see that many of the newer Intrigues have a lot of what my Magna had and maybe more in some respects!( not that I would trade...)

I may not always agree with some of the marketing decisions about what options are sold with which model coach, but I do like many of the new things they are doing and sometimes I wish I could afford a newer coach.

I must admit to longing for the Alexander's 2002 (2001?)Affinity after I saw it in Ft. Myers. ( I'm dreaming...)
But until I win the lottery, I am LOVING this 2000 Magna and as I am fond of saying- you'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.

...and Country Coach? As far as I am concerned- No one can touch em!!!!

Quote from: tjf2000us
Since we are near to purchasing a used Intrigue, I have been

browsing

Quote
the messages as to what problems folks have had and how they have > been fixed. While browsing I came sccross messages that were

posted

Quote
in March 2003 about problems that someone had with their 3 yr. old > coach. It seems that CC was passing the buck on these items to

the

Quote
individual items manufacturer rather than jump in and help resolve > the problem. In answer to his problems, someone claiming to be an

RV

Quote
salesman jumped all over him because he expected CC to help him

with

Quote
products that they had simply hung on the coach. He wondered why > they or any other coach manufacturer should bear this burden when

it

Quote
was not their fault. Guess what. If any of these products

installed

Quote
on a coach by CC malfuntioned and caused a fatal accident, do you > think CC wouldn't be liable along with the individual
manufacturer?

Quote
I remember what a man a met last year driving a Monaco exectutive > said to me. He had quit boating and traded his boat almost even

for

Quote
the motorhome. He said that if they built a baot of that class to > the same quality as a like priced coach, the company would be out

of

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5383
Doug

I think the cheaper models havre less problems because they have less equipment. We once had a 94 Southwind and it did not ride very well but we had very few problems. We also had a Terry Trailer that had no problems but we had to go outside to light the hot water heater and frig. and also to level the jacks.
It was hell when we were stopped in the rain.
As far as homes are concerned, our hwh went bad in 2 years ago and it was easier to take it back to the plumbing supply house then deal with the builder.
We also do that with our coach. We deal with Lazy Days a lot but when it comes to warranty work on the frig or ACs we go to Camping World. On the inverter we deal directly with the inverter repair people, On the Huricane we try to hit a rally to let the factory rep deal with the unit. We also use rallies to deal with the Generator and CCI items.

It works for us. Everyone needs to figure out what works in their area.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5385
Tom,

What I mean by BA was that up until 2 years ago Fore travel looked like a 50 year old house, very out of date. They are beginning to come around but they are still way behind in the electronics and old guy toys. I could never see paying the kind of money they get for a decaled coach.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998
 

Re: Manufacturers responsibility

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 5606
This thoughful analysis is very much consistent with my experience. I was just reflecting that I coould not envision having a job and a coach!!!!

Chuck Gauthier

2000 Intrigue 11142

Quote from: Doug Rosenberg
> Here is a response from a new CC owner who also has a boat [longer
than the coach, and a whole lot heavier]. Our coach has had numerous problems and is currently residing back at the factory. Some of the problems were with equipment that was beyond CC control, i.e. a faulty Hurricane that burned. Others should have never been allowed out of the factory. The service from the dealer was between poor and non-existent. However, we are now dealing directly with the factory and they have been very supportive. In fact, the service so far has changed our attitude about CC. Hopefully the final outcome, which includes re-design of the Hurricane system, will be positive.

Quote
>

As to comparing with a boat, one advantage we expected with a coach
was that we would not have to be totally self-sufficient with tools, parts and know-how. We joked about just driving a coach into a shop and having it fixed [vs. being stranded in the middle of nowhere on the boat]. I know the boat inside and out and now have very few problems with it. I doubt that I will ever get to that point with the coach, nor do I want to. One problem is that the coaches are far too complicated, despite having fewer systems and electronics than the boat. There is a mindset that more complicated is better--such as one thermostat to control three machines. The last time I talked to tech staff, they were excited about adding even more functions to the Silverleaf. Who has time to fiddle with that while keeping the coach on the road? So I am curious, does this break-in / break-down phase ever end?

Quote
>

Doug Allure 30929