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Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Yahoo Message Number: 72915
I am at the stage of beginning to research the idea of buying a coach. One question that I have been thinking about is the issue of tag axles on an RV. Beyond the obvious issue of greater traction and load carrying ability with a tag axle, and the loss of a lot of basement space with a tag axle compared to a single axle RV, what are the pluses and minuses and issues that I should be thinking about?

Gary

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72916
We went from not having a tag to having one and the difference was we never worry about weight capacity any more.. the most important thing... IMHO Also the coach is very stable going down the road too.. but that is subjective only.

Russ

05 Intrigue
11883

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72917
Handling!!!

Hi Gary and welcome to the group. We have a tag on our 40' Allure and love it. We've been in terrible cross wind conditions that had others chasing their rigs all over the road, no problem for us. When parking and maneuvering the tag lifts and the rig pivots on the forward axle. With a little practise you can put the coach about anywhere you can put a pickup truck.
We're fulltimers and don't find storage to be an issue, it does mean 2 more tires at replacement time.

Jim 07 Allure #31570

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72922
Ditto to Jim's response in regard to more longitudinal and lateral stability. In addition, maintenance is a consideration on the tag if necessary such as air bags, etc.
Tag axled motorhomes have a higher gross vehicle weight rating which translates into a higher cargo carrying capacity. In this instance, it is very appropriate to weigh the coach at each wheel to obtain an actual weight.
Finally, tag axled motorhomes are a little more expensive; however, there are tradeoffs such as delineated above.

Best of luck in your search.
Tom

2004 CC Intrigue, #11848
Maryland

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72923
My summary of thoughts, when we chose a tag: Pro
-CCC

-Handling Stability
-Cross wind Stability
-Added braking

-40' with tag, turns tighter then 40' without tag -Higher resell values
Con

-Added cost at purchase
-Added maintenance costs
-Lost basement

Though tag's exist on 38', we did not consider them until 40' or above. Our target length was 40-42'. Many coaches that are 40', have very little CCC. We ended up with a 40' Allure, with incredible CCC reserves. I considered it a safety more then comfort item.
So much depends on what you are looking for. If CCC is not a major item for you, then a 38-40' non tag rig may serve you well.

Best of luck on your research,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72924
When i was looking for a replacemment for our 98 Allure 36' I wanted three full bays. The problem with

the 2002 Country Coach units and previous 40' with 3 bays was weight distribution with two slides on

one side and carrying capacity. And just like my 98 with the large rear over hang wind and trucks at

higher speeds caused the coach to wander. Larger engines couldn't be placed in the Magnas or

Intrigues without causing weight issues. M agnas had 23,000+ rear axles which are illegal on Federal

highways above 20,000 lbs being carried to Allow the CAT C12. I had considered the 2002 Magna, but it

only had two slides and the front one was shallow. By the time the 03 Intrigue and Magna were

introduced with three slides at Pamona and I saw one in Texas, THe 04's were being scheduled already

with many updates. The Magnas had been reduced two 2 1/2 bays and the front drop down plasma was

gone, so I took the Intrigue. I didn't want a Cat engine due to service issues in my part of the world and I couldn't get an ISM in the Magna or Intrigue. I also wanted the very tight turning radius of the 03 and 04 Intrigues. Carol wanted the large prep area of the Intrigue Kitchen. She also wanted the brighter

lighting of the Intrigue. TWI. 2004 Intrigue 11731

Original Message:
-----------------

From: GSmith77_7 gsmith77_7@... Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 21:30:43 -0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

My summary of thoughts, when we chose a tag: Pro
-CCC

-Handling Stability
-Cross wind Stability
-Added braking

-40' with tag, turns tighter then 40' without tag -Higher resell values
Con

-Added cost at purchase
-Added maintenance costs
-Lost basement

Though tag's exist on 38', we did not consider them until 40' or above. Our target length was 40-42'.

Many coaches that are 40', have very little CCC. We ended up with a 40' Allure, with incredible CCC

reserves. I considered it a safety more then comfort item.
So much depends on what you are looking for. If CCC is not a major item for you, then a 38-40' non tag
rig may serve you well.

Best of luck on your research,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72925
I am pretty sure there is not any loss of cargo capacity if you stick with the 42 foot tags over going with a single axel less than 40 foot coach. My opinion is that because the coach weights over 38,000 lbs not loaded or towing I sure do feel alot more comfortable knowing that I have another set of parking brakes and service brakes the same size as the drive axel. The tag is a huge safety factor and I would never go back to a singe drive axel. Being a private pilot I have always enjoyed the redundacy built into the engine on a plane. The same goes for stopping a big coach.
The lateral issue in wind quite noticable with a single vs tag rig. Since the Tag is not a drive axel you do not get better traction....in fact you get less traction because the load is lighter with the tag down. I have to lift the tag to get out of my 8 degree incline asphalt driveway when there is moss on it ( I know, I live in the northwest) or else I just spin the tires... which is a little disconcerting.
I just feel alot better parking on a hill with 4 brakes on. On my rig the parking brake does not lock up the front tires...Saftey issue I guess if you need steerage while skidding down the road.
Put a 5000 lbs trailer behind you and put on the service brake and then you will wish you had the redundancy of onther set of brakes going down a long incline with traffic in front.
If none of this makes any sense to you then my last observation in my opinion, that tag axel just makes the rig look a bit more kewl. When my wife and me were shopping for a (little) motorhome I told her that someday I wanted to buy a big kenworth tractor to play with. She was not amused but did compromise and let me get a 42 foot motorhome with a tag and the big c12 cat engine. BTW, go for the biggest engine you can find too. They do not use more fuel (turn at lower RPM to generate more torque) and they get you to the party faster. :)

Dallas 2004 intrigue C12 11688

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72929
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the tag axle does not have parking or spring brakes on it.

Mikee

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72932
If you put a tag on a 40ft then no matter what the CC is you will lose storage VOLUME. On any length coach you will lose volume simply because the tags have to go where a storage bin was.
So even though the CC goes up the storage goes down. So from a weight point of view they are safer because they are harder to overload than a 40ft without a tag.
We had a tag bus conversion and loved the extra stability the tag gave in cross winds.

Bruce

2001 Intrigue #11278

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72933
I do not understand why a tag axel adds stability to a MH in a cross wind or when passed by a big truck. Could someone explain this to me in non technical form?

Jim E

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72935
With tag, you have sort of a rear rudder, where the tag act as the rudder to help off set the potential pivoting point of the dual rear axle. Without the tags rudder, it is easier for shifting winds, to push the front to one side or another, pivoting on the duals.
That's my thinking, but as Dennis Miller used to say 'I could be wrong'. Wrong on the why, not that it does - test driving enough rigs at 40' without tags, same day, same route - to feel tags were more stable...
Best to all, and please one of you smart people - explain it better. Then, get down to DC and your hands on the check book...
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72937
Less Overhang

More square inches of tire on the ground Longer wheelbase

More suspension, the tag is in the suspension system 6 points of contact with the road, only 4 on a non tag

Mikee

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72938
Jim,

Tag axle coaches are much heavier than non-tag, perhaps 33% more, There are 8 points of contacts with the road instead of 6, also 33% more, More air bags as Dave said.

I have owned a 23,000 lb gasser, 32,000 non-tag diesel, now a 42,000 lb tag coach. You would not believe the successive improvements in stability.
With the 23,000 gasser I dreaded the passing of EVERY truck, pulling me in, pushing me out. With the 42,000 lb tag, nary a wiggle.

Lee
--

Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72939
Look at the distance from the center line of the rear most axle to the back end of the coach. Think of this as a "tiller". The longer the tiller lever the more side winds and gusts will tend to "steer" the rig..

Jim 07 Allure #31570

Correction: Tag on my coach does have parking and service brakes Mik

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72944
Well that is bad news Mikee but does not apply to my coach. Not sure how you could make that misleading comment.
My tag has the same brakes as the drive wheels and they do serve as a parking brake also. When my parking brake (air dump) is on the tags are locked up real good.
I know they work both as a service brake and parking brake. With the tag up and backing down my driveway the tag is locked up if I have the service brakes on,( the tire scrapes on the ground if there is a dip in the driveway. I have also had the rear tires off the ground while installing my onspot snow chain system and the tags were locked up.

The coach manual spells that out too.

Dallas 2004 intrigue 11688

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72945
Lee,

One point missing on the additional weight of the tag axel is that when the tag is lowered, it is mostly unsprung weight on the ground and therefore does have much negative weight effect to the rest fo the suspension system. The added braking more than compensates for the weight of the tag axel.

IMHO

Dallas intrigue 11688

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72951
Lee,

So, what if you had a 42,000 lb dual axel?

Jim E

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72964
Jim, Federal law states that single axles are limited to 20,000 pounds, and axles closer than 96 inches apart (tandem axles, aka tag axles) are limited to 34,000 pounds.
Thus there is no such animal as a 42,000 dual ( I assume you mean non-tag).

Please read this resource -

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/publications/brdg_frm_wghts/index.htm
Lee
--

Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13
----

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72966
Lee,

What the law reads is not the point. You said,"I have owned a 23,000 lb gasser, 32,000 non-tag diesel, now a 42,000 lb tag coach. You would not believe the SUCCESSIVE improvements in stability." The point is, maybe the reason for better stability was the greater weight, 42,000 lbs verses 32,000 lbs or 23,000 lbs. As you pointed out the tag was added because of Federal law not to improve stability. I guess if someone had a 32,000 lb MH with a tag axel then you could compare the stability difference.

Jim

Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72968
My 40ft allure has one large storage bay and one smaller one. Lots of storage. Yes it will turn inside a regular 40ft. and that has hepled me get in to smaller parks in the north east. Yes if feels safer to have more rubber on the road.

Did not buy it for any of above, but that stuff did sell the wife.

It just looks good. Stands out from the every day coach.

Frank Allure 31425

Lifting Tag? Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles/

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 73188
Not to steal this thread, but I think it relates to the topic.
I'm curious how many of you actually lift the tag or find that of any real value. I understand it's best used for tight turns (I would assume parking manuvers in camp sites), but do you ever using it while driving (U-turn?). I've seen other coaches with tags, but they can't be raised. Would appreciate any insight

Lifting Tag? Re: Newbie and dumb question on + or - of tag axles/

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 73192
I am not and expert on when to lift a tag but I do lift it to get better traction when the drive wheels begine to loose traction on snow or getting out of my inclined driveway when it is wet. Makes a big difference. Other than that, I will use it in tight turns when I want to save scuffing rubber off the tires. There is no evidence that lifting them allows tighter turns since the wieght of the vehicle in the front as well as the limited rubber on the ground with the tags would have any effect UNLESS you are on gravel or loose ground, then then it does make slight turning difference.
The problem I have seen is that you can actually wear a slight flat spot on the tag tire if you are backing down a hill with the service brakes on if the the tags begin to touch or drag on the driveway due to uneven surfaces. I have skid marks on my driveway from that happening.
Bottom line for me is that I lift them to get traction if needed and to make tight turns on hard surfaces to save scuffing.

Dallas 2004 intrigue ovation 11688