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propane question

Yahoo Message Number: 76173
Good Morning,

not sure what is going on, but even tho my propane is shut off, I have both zones in the coach on electric heat, I continue to hear in the bathroom area, what sounds like the propane trying to kick on and off..... when standing outside the coach next to the vent, it clearly sounds like the igniter trying to turn on, then going off again.... dont understand what is transpiring as I am not calling for propane anywhere else in the coach - refer is on elec as is heat.... any ideas for me??
thank you all
jan

06 Inspire DaVinci 51898

Re: propane question

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76175
Jan I assume you have a propane furnace. The roof units, provide heat pump heat . If the outside temperature is too low , say even 40F, the thermostat will switch over propane furnace ( or in my case diesel Aquahot ) to provide heat when the "electric " side is not available. Therefore the propane will try to start even though you have the propane shut off. If it's not the outside temperature issue, then you may have a thermostat issue.

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025 with Aquahot system for heating

Re: propane question

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76176
Jan...

Not sure of how the Inspire is set up, but I suspect you are hearing the thermostat in the "plumbing" bay "calling" for heat that is only available when you are heating with your furnace ...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: propane question

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76177
Hi Buck - thank you for your response - you think it might be a bad thermostat I am hearing with all the clicking going on, and not the igniter on the propane unit? Like I mentioned, when I went outside the coach to try and pinpoint where the noises were coming from, its right outside the little grate that is outside the bathroom area --- not knowing or understanding how all this works yet, I am concerned I might be a puff of propane smoke soon...... thanks Buck for responding
jan

Inspire 06, DaVinci, 51898

From: buck

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:08 AM Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: propane question

Jan...

Not sure of how the Inspire is set up, but I suspect you are hearing the thermostat in the "plumbing" bay "calling" for heat that is only available when you are heating with your furnace ...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: propane question

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76181
Buck Having spent 30+ tears in the HVAC business , I highly doubt that you would get "multiple " on/off clicks from the thermostat in the bay. The remote bulb thermostat used in the bays usually have a high spread in temperature between on and off, sometimes as great as 8 to 10 degrees. Therefor the temperature would have to change quite quickly , in the bay to get more than one small click, which I would guess , cannot be heard from outside the bay door. To explain further, if, the inside the coach thermostat is kicking over to the , propane furnace , the roof unit( electric ) would not be throwing, any heat. If , the roof is still giving heat, then you have another issue. I would also check the temperature setting on the thermostat in the bay. If this were set at , say 50 degrees or more the basement could be asking for heat. Jan you don't say what the outside temperature is when having this problem. It would help to diagnose.

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: propane question

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76182
Hi Ron

the outside temp is probably 65 deg F or thereabouts --- I set the thermostat up to 75 just to get it to do what its doing to try and isolate where the noise is coming from....... when I was in Amarillo not too long ago, the night time temp got down to about 30 deg and I heard the clicking constantly, so turned everything off - went to the camp office and the manager came out and showed me the propane guage or whatever it is, was full of frost/ice... so he left the bay door open for the sun to hit it ----- I guess it was frozen and could not ignite, so it just kept trying --- this is kinda the same sound only its not constant, I sure hate to call for service before finding out if its something I can resolve or someone here at the park who might have a clue..... thanks Ron - I have everything shut off now.... jan

06 Inspire DaVinci 51898

From: RonaldB

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:04 AM Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: propane question

Buck Having spent 30+ tears in the HVAC business , I highly doubt that you would get "multiple " on/off clicks from the thermostat in the bay. The remote bulb thermostat used in the bays usually have a high spread in temperature between on and off, sometimes as great as 8 to 10 degrees. Therefor the temperature would have to change quite quickly , in the bay to get more than one small click, which I would guess , cannot be heard from outside the bay door. To explain further, if, the inside the coach thermostat is kicking over to the , propane furnace , the roof unit( electric ) would not be throwing, any heat. If , the roof is still giving heat, then you have another issue. I would also check the temperature setting on the thermostat in the bay. If this were set at , say 50 degrees or more the basement could be asking for heat. Jan you don't say what the outside temperature is when having this problem. It would help to diagnose.

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: propane question

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76183
I am puzzled by the comment that the "the propane gauge or whatever it is, was full of frost/ice" in 30 degree temps. Well, my first reaction was a propane leak, but then you'd smell propane. Besides, I'd guess the bay area would be a bit warmer than the outside.

Lee
--

Lee (leozbrowski@...) 2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153
CAT C-13

Re: propane question

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76186
Jan You didn't say which thermostat you turned to 75 ! At 30F outside the " electric " on your thermostat ( unless your coach has an electric strip heater in the rooftop units - which is unusual ) is the heatpump mode, and at 30F your roof heatpump would be bypassed at the roof unit and the propane furnace would provide the heat. The roof unit supplies heat from the ceiling vents and the propane furnace from the floor vents. If the propane furnace has the propane to it, shut off , typically the electronic ignition, would shut off after 3 or 4 tries. Unless the furnace gets fired up properly, the fan would not come on. The propane furnace gets reset, by turning power to the unit off , and then on. It would then repeat the ignition cycle. The first thing to do to isolate the problem . I would turn on the propane to the furnace and put the inside thermostat to the "furnace " mode. I would then turn the inside thermostat up to 80 or 90 , so that there is a demand for heat. The furnace should fire up and the fan come on after a short period, when the heat exchanger comes to a high enough temperature. Let it run for 5 minutes and turn the thermostat down to 55degrees so that there is no demand for heat. What happens is that the furnace flame goes out ( and you could look through the flame glass inspection hole to see if it is on or off ) After the heat exchanger cools down , after the flame goes off, the fan will shut down. If all this works fine, then you don't have a furnace problem. The basement thermostat can call for the propane furnace to come on , and that is to protect the basement from freezing. This basement thermostat could be faulty , as well. It normally would be set for 40degrees as that is all you need to protect the water from freezing. If that thermostat is set too high , or is way out of calibration, then it could be asking for the furnace to come on. If you set it at 40, it will come on near 40 and then shut off 6 to 10 degrees higher than that. This is the spread , I was talking about. Earlier someone posted, that they took the bulb from the basement thermostat and put the bulb in a mixture of ice and water. this would get the click to on happen at about 32 to 36 degrees on the knob. If you take the bulb out of the ice water and hold it in your hand you should hear a click off. Try this a few times. If the knob is anywhere near 32 to 26 , then the calibration/setting of the bulb thermostat is reasonably accurate. If it isn't you need to replace the basement thermostat. I would not shut off the propane to the furnace. If you don't want the furnace to work, shut the furnace off manually or pull the fuse. It does no good for the igniter to be trying to start all the time.
With respect to the propane frosting, at the tank, that would be somewhat normal if their was high demand of propane . The propane is liquid in the tank , but it is evaporating to get to a be a gas to , to send it to your cooktop or furnace. It takes heat for anything to evaporate , so around 30 F and lower you will get some frosting at the tank and valve , as there is moisture in the air and the tank is cooler than the air and therefor frost forms. You could also have a restriction at the valve, if say it was not fully open, and also cause frosting. If you are running the furnace in low temperatures you should not even fill the tank to 80% as is standard . The colder the temperature , the more surface area of the liquid propane in the tank, you would need , because it evaporates at a much slower rate. With the information given , this is all i could recommend.
If the furnace does not fire up properly, call a professional

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: propane question

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76187
Ron and Jan...

I fully admit that I know virtually nothing about HVAC...
Just know that in my Magna I can hear the plumbing-bay thermostat "click" and "call" for heat when I am using the roof heat/pumps to heat the coach rather than the Webasto furnace... The "clicking" can be heard from both inside the "potty" room (which is over the plumbing-bay)and from outside the plumbing-bay with the door closed...
I have minimized the "clicking" by setting the plumbing-bay thermostat to 34 degrees rather than the original setting of 45 degrees, just as Ron suggests for Jan in his reply...
Now, when I hear the "click", I know the temp in the plumbing-bay is nearing the freeze mark and it is time to shut down the heat-pumps and fire up the Webasto to keep the temp in the plumbing bay above freezing...
Jan, I don't think you have a bad thermostat... Just think that it needs to be set closer to freezing so it's not calling for heat unless the plumbing-bay is nearing the freeze point... And if your propane is shut off at the tank, I don't think you will go up in a "puff of propane"...
BUT...I bow to Ron's knowledge and experience and strongly suggest that his comments, suggestions, etc. take precedent over my opinions...

buck

k7wn, '99Magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: propane question

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76188
Buck I will defer to you that you may have a thermostat that clicks loudly. Most people would not choose to manually operate their system , as you do. If the coach is occupied and the interior temperatures near normal , 68 to 70 degrees , there is enough heat loss through the floor to keep the basement warm and provide a little time for the heat to come on and prevent freezing. If however, you keep it low in the interior , or if you are not in the coach, I would suggest that 34 degrees basement is too close for comfort , for me. Keep in mind that the thermostat / sensor is near the tanks and that you have pipes running in the bottom , that are not near this sensor. If you want automatic operation , then I suggest a 40 degree setting. As well , I don't recommend shutting off the propane to the furnace. This still leaves the igniter able to operate, which is not good if propane is not present, and secondly, if there was a call for basement heat, and the gas was shut off , you could freeze the pipes. It is better to get the problem solved. You must however know the sequence of operation, to try and trouble shoot anything. There is no point it trying to bypass devices put there for your safety and comfort.

Ron Baran 09 Magna7025

Re: propane question

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76189
Ron...

Truth of the matter is that I have operated the system manually due to the fact that I didn't realize it would automatically switch from the heat-pumps to the Webasto furnace...
Have just perused my original documentation, and there is no mention of the system switching automatically...
BUT... When I turn on the "central heat" switch in the bedroom, I have both the "heat-pump" and "furnace" options available on my Comfort Control Center, so very likely it will do as you say and switch automatically... Will give it a try when we get a cool enough night here in central Florida...
As you say, the heat-loss thru the floor pretty well takes care of the plumbing-bay freezing problem in this area... If I find myself wintering in the northern "hinterlands', would most certainly set the plumbing-bay thermostat higher...
Don't have to "wrestle" with the propane problem since the Webasto is diesel fired...

buck

k7wn, '99Magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060

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Re: propane question

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76190
Buck Just a word of caution, the automatic switch over to the other heating mode , whether it be Webasto or propane furnace, may not be available on a coach the age of yours ( 1999 ). Certainly the 06 coach Jan has or should have the feature. I would suggest to contact your Thermostat manufacturer, to see if you have that feature. It also may be possible to convert to the newer thermostat, as that is a very good feature to have. To have it , it would have to be the electronic style thermostat.

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: propane question

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76203
Jan

If you are on electric heat and you set your thermostat more than 3 to 4 degrees higher than the temp in the coach, propane heat will come on to supplement the electric. Could this be an issue with your problem? Ned Herrmann
06 Inspire 51677

Re: propane question

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76204
Jan

If you are on electric heat and you set your thermostat more than 3 to 4 degrees higher than the temp in the coach, propane heat will come on to supplement the electric. Could this be an issue with your problem? Ned Herrmann
06 Inspire 51677

Re: propane question

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76205
Jan

If you are on electric heat and you set your thermostat more than 3 to 4 degrees higher than the temp in the coach, propane heat will come on to supplement the electric. Could this be an issue with your problem? Ned Herrmann
06 Inspire 51677

Re: propane question

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76210
I am reading this thread with a lot of interest. It has been as low as 10 degrees here in Prescott and I am fighting to keep up with heat in all the appropriate places in my 2005 Allure 430. I do not winterize as we often take off for a few days, so I need the water system fresh. So what is this basement heat you are all talking about?
I have propane furnaces (2) and a digital controller thermostat that operates the roof airs and the furnaces in 2 zones, but I know nothing of any basement or cargo bay heat supply, or any thermostats or bulbs to sense wet bay temps. How would I know if I have this option?

Re: propane question

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76211
We have a 06 Inspire, and when the back furnace runs in ours, it pumps heat down into the basement where the plumbing and tanks are. However, last winter our coach was in OK City at Twin Fountains RV Park with 50 amp service. Everyone there for the winter used heat tape on their water hose and then wrapped with foam rubber. In addition, I saw and copied several folks who also put a trouble light in their water bay close to the water pump. And they also put insulation in the hoses where the hoses come through which I did too. I had a 25 watt bulb in the trouble light , but I did not use the 40 watt bulb that might have worked even better due to concern about the heat in the bay while I was gone.

Mike Frederick
06 Inspire 51784

Re: propane question

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76213
Thanks Ron... Will call Duotherm before I do any "experimenting" with my system...
I suspect that you are correct in that a coach the age of mine does not have the heat-pump/furnace "switching" option...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD

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Re: propane question

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76219
Hi Ned

I think I might have had an issue where both systems were confused - a Country Coach owner who was here at my park suggested I turn everything off, leave it off for 10 min or so, then "reboot" -- I have not heard the clicking since I did this..... maybe my systems were as confused as I was.....
I worried alot when I heard that igniter doing what I thought was misfiring - thought I would disappear with a big black puff of smoke (alot of flames, too).... thank you all
jan

06 DaVinci Inspire 51898

Re: propane question

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76220
Thank you Buck for your help - sure appreciate it.... jan

06 Inspire DaVinci 51898

Re: propane question

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76221
Ned - I was not aware of this - I thought if I was on elec, that was it, that propane was no longer involved at that point.... since I have reset everything after having left everything off for a while and so far, no clicking....... thank you Ned for your help, appreciate it... jan

06 Inspire DaVinci 51898

Re: propane question

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76222
Thanks Mike. I also receied a pm that is consistant with what you are saying for my setup. I just never thought to look at the outputs for the rear heater. Good to find out there is heat to the tanks.
I also use a bulb by the water pump, and I put one behind the refrigerator to keep the ice supply line from freezing as well.

Re: propane question

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76226
Buck

It might work..... My 1999 Magna 5703 switches automatically.

Terry

1999 Magna 5703
 

Re: propane question

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 76232
Thanks Terry... will give it a try when we have a cool spell here in central Florida...
Called duotherm today and they said my Comfort Control Center is fully capable of switching the AC/ heat-pumps to furnace mode if the systems are "configured" properly...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060

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