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Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Yahoo Message Number: 78933
Speedco offers on-site oil analysis service at a very reasonable price, has anyone used this service? They do the analysis and give you a print out showing contaminant levels with a good explanation of each reading. If the analysis shows oil is good would this mean you can use the oil, without harm to the engine, past the one year recommended oil change interval? It is my understanding that California is going to a mandatory oil analysis program for some vehicles, has anyone heard of this? I hate to throw away good oil so am doing more reading and making some calls to engine manufacturers to get their opinion of the oil analysis program.

Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78937
Ray,

Thanks for your interesting post!

I have never used the Speedco service for oil change so, I was not aware of their instant analysis. Maybe I will try them next time. Do they draw the sample up from the dip-stick tube? I had my oil changed and chassis lubed at a T/A Truck stop in Indio, CA a few weeks ago. I purchased a sample kit (a small plastic bottle), instructions and pre-paid mailer for $18 from their shop. They collected a sample for me to mail-in and I got a reassuring report card showing detailed analysis within about 10 days. Their charge for service was $208 including filters and multi-point checks. I tipped the service tech to take a few minutes to check the security of all the hoses beneath the coach. He reported that there is no chafing and that the ties are all secure.
I am curious to know what the service charge would have been without the actual oil replacement and disposal fees. I plan to ask that question soon. BTW, I used the term "Service Tech" loosely as it took this rookie about 15 minutes to find the second fuel filter which is nicely tucked-in above the starting motor. However, I guess I should be a little more forgiving since these techs are not accustomed to the nuances of motor homes as 98% of their jobs involve 18 wheel tractors. In the future, I will identify the location of the less obvious filter right on the service order!
I have always been concerned about oil breakdown and acid build-up as a result of condensation and other contaminants. I assumed that oil (like tires) deteriorates with age. But, recently an engine tech advised me that my assumption is out of date. He said that the additives in modern oils helps to prevent damage from age and acid build-up. He added that molecular breakdown of the oil and subsequent loss of lubricity has also improved even in ordinary (non-synthetic) oils. The oil analysis sort of corroborated his comments; except that the report did not include lubricity ratings. Can anyone school me on this? I am like you. I would hate to think that we are dealing with all of the waste, waste disposal and handling costs excessively; to say nothing of the green environment...... and the green in our wallets as well .
I have not heard of the CA mandatory analysis proposal. Nothing has come to my attention in the run-of-the mill periodicals. Please keep us posted on the results of your research with the engine mfrs. or others. Meanwhile, I will check with my sources.

Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure, 30226, Cummins 8.3

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78939
Daron,

Speedco pulled the sample by inserting a tube into the dip stick tube, their initial tubing was too short so they had to fabricate a longer tube in order to reach down far enough to pull the sample. I was really impressed that they didn't give up. ;-) The cost for pulling the sample and the analysis was only $18.00, I also got them to do a lube job and change my fuel filters, cost for lube job was $38. and cost for changing the two fuel filters was $12. labor and $5.99 for each of the fuel filters. Sure beats paying Cummins or most any RV service center their $125 an hour for what is basically unskilled but trained labor, trained to lube and change your oil. I was very happy with their work and the tech did look underneath for problem hoses as a part of his work, they also checked the front wheel bearing lubricant level and tire pressure. If all the Speedco's are as this one, located just west of Knoxville, Tn, then I would not hesitate to go to them for lube and oil change. They Fleetguard filters.

Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78941
I have had an oil analysis done on oil that should be changed at 6 months or 6,000 miles like the manual said.
The result on my old engine was that the oil was nearly like new and the engine was not shedding any metal parts.
I have arbitrarily extended my oil changes to 1 year since I have no warranty with a 17 year old C8.3L Cummins.
We used to extend fleet oil changes based on oil sampling, but there the gamble was on averages not just one vehicle.

Dean

95 Magna 5280

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78944
Hello from the UK - but then the engines (and other bits and pieces!) are the same!

Since out of warranty

I am a firm advocate of regular oil analysis - not only engine but transmission and PTO fluids as well
The cost per sample over here is comparable to the $18 in the U.S. - I take and submit the samples myself (have differing lengths of tubes and wash out the syringe in between each to avoid cross contamination) - the result are usually emailed to me within a week
As a consequence and in discussions with those who maintain our coach we have been able to extend all our fluid change intervals - we do change the oil filter mid-term but only because I want a look inside
The transmission fluid anlaysis will identify any trace of glycol (anti-freeze)or parts wearing abnormally long before such problems would normally manifest themselves - it is also able to highlight hydraulic contamination if ever an issue with the PTO / pump seals
It is important to have and I also submitted 'control' samples (new oil)so that I had a bench mark to work from - the analysis company spent time on the phone with me and identified the 'trigger' (concern) contamination levels - I now only change fluids at about 50% of the level at which the analysis company would normally pass comment (trigger contamination level)
With synthetic fluids we are presently pushing our engine oil change out to 3 years (at 2 years the analysis was fine) and our transmission out towards 5 years (2 year analysis also fine) - I anticpate the PTO fluid will also go to 5 years, if not more
(Average annual mileage about 10,000 - our island isn't as big as yours :-)
Nobody I have yet spoken to over here about this arrangement has thrown their hands up in horror / voiced concerns - very interested in any 'retired' engine / transmission engineers' views please
At 32 quarts a time (on the C9 engine) our repeated oil sampling / analysis has, I believe, already paid for itself several itmes over
(A closing thought, how do the really big engines, warships and the like get on? - do they do a 'complete' oil change when required or do they keep contaminants at an acceptable level by regular sampling, filter changes and partial replacement - I suspect the latter.)

Ian S.

2005 Allure 430 #31321

Cat C9 / Allison transmission

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78946
Same subject - little different solution.
I have installed a Gulf Coast By-Pass Oil Filter on my rig and I follow their protocol. I don't change oil except when tests indicate it is necessary (most likely 100,000 to 200,000 miles). I have to replace the oil lost when the By-Pass filter is changed - about one gallon every 7500 miles and I replace the CAT oil filter every 15,000 miles. I can change the By-Pass filter myself in about 15 minutes. I send in oil test sample every 15,000 miles. Check out this link:
http://gulfcoastfilters.com/how_do_i_eliminate_routine_oil_c.htm
Good luck,
Paul

'01 Affinity, #5951

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78960
Hi Friends, You got me as I must add my 2 cents. Great group of owners and great posts! Working in the Diesel Servive Repair and Rebuild for Cat and others in my other life All fluid samples were and still are a must. I as a Owner four years now have not gotten one as I change my fluids myself. I would like to add to this. A good shop tech always uses a filter cutter to Inspect the used filter before it is sent to recycle for metal pieces and filings. Coolant Filter/Additive carterages also must be replaced on older over the road engines. Transmission fluids also must be sampled as any other fluids like the Diff.. Always when I had a bad sample I always took another to bring to the lab for a second report and removed the oil filter cartridge can top be cut off to inspect the element. Working in Florida we had humid days and it was the norm to see water droplets lead from the Crancase breather tube as the engine warmed to running temp.. Worse on Marine Diesels! Our rentals had a sample come up good after 250 hours we sometimes let go back in the field. This was done at the rental Mgr's. Disc. We have many dollars in our Power Plants so Makes me Happy seing concern on Fluid samples. We took samples through the dip stick tube on a hot engine after cool down. The Ca. req. sounds Interesting and hopefully some one out there can offer more feed back on this. Im still learning about Diesel Exhaust Fluid on Present Over the road Diesels. Cat has a Over the road C-11 AND C-13 Tier four engine out there on Comm. Trucks only. Hopefully in the near future would love to see then in RV's. My friends at Cat are Quiet on this. Stay Tuned! Ken 99 Allure 30356

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78968
Hi Here are a few more details regarding the installation, etc. of the Gulf Coast By-Pass Oil Filter:
Due to the vertical clearance in the engine compartment, I was told by Gulf Coast to use the Model 0-1 filter (17.25" tall) and change the by-pass filter element and filter oil every 7,500 miles vs. 15,000 mile intervals if I had been able to use the taller model 0-2 filter which contained two filter elements. There needs to be approximately 19" of clearance above the top of the filter housing to remove the filter element and replace with a new element. The oil analysis should confirm that model 0-1 use is ok.
The filter element costs about $20, the oil for the filter costs about $20 and the oil analysis costs a little more than $20 (the analysis is done every 15,000 mile once the baseline is established).
There is a petcock on the oil supply line to the filter which makes it simple to draw the oil sample.

Paul

'01 Affinity 40' tag, #5951
Cat 455hp

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78975
Could you tell me about how much it cost to put in your by-pass system? Did you install it yourself or have it done?

John

'06 Inspire DaVinci #51905

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78978
I was curious about this too and so I call this morning. I talked to Jerry at Gulf Coast Filter. He said to use the 0-1 system due to space restrictions but recommended we change the filter every 5000 miles. The 0-1 is currently $670 + 60 shipping anywhere in the US.
My questions for Paul:

Was there another plug in your oil pan to run back into? Was there an easy route for the hose and plenty of it to run? How long have you been using the system?

Tammy T

Panama City, FL
99' Magna 5605

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78979
Hi Friend, Working at Cat our rentals always had Sales have us put on these type of filters and Yes they do thier job. As a tech Im not a fan of this as they learnd to hard way of saving money having not to pay techs to change oil beyond a 250 hour run.I always get flack on this! As owners you do check your coachs more often but do your home work on any non OEM Add on's. When I went to Oil Sample School back in the 80's I still remember never use a pet cock to fill a sample bottle! During our class we did it and got a bad lab report! We always ran the engine to running temp loaded then cool down and shut down. Removed the dip stick used the oil sample plastic tube and matched the length of the dip stick and hand feed only to the length of the bottom of the dip stick then take sample. Also keep all lines away from Turbo Hot housing and Exhaust Manifold's! They under heavy loads will glow red no fires please! Again my 2 cents! Ken Retired Cat Tech 99 Allure 30356.

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 78984
Hi Tammy

Thanks for the information regarding the 5000 mile oil change interval.
If I remember correctly, the installation instructions I received from Gulf Coast showed a plug on the Cat C-12 that could be hooked into. I had the local CAT service center install my by-pass filter (about $1,000 which included an oil and service filter change) and I gave them the installation instructions. They ran the hose from the drivers side of the engine along the drivers side bottom inside edge of the tube steel coach frame and then across the rear of the engine compartment to the passenger side tube steel frame where the by-pass filter is mounted. There is about 12"-18" of open space from the engine compartment door to the engine on my coach and thus ample space to mount this filter and service same.
I have had the by-pass system installed for 2 years but have only put about 10,000 miles on the rig during that period. I have had one oil sample test and it came out great. I will know more in the next year as we have just retired and plan to do some serious driving of our motorhome starting this summer.
I do have a good friend who had a 65 foot yacht with two 650hp Detroits and a couple of diesel generators which all have Gulf Coast filters. It is much tougher to change oil in a boat and he loves the by-pass filters. He has probably had his by-pass filter about 5 years.
Life is an experiment and the concept of the by-pass filter seemed like a reasonable gamble to me. If I am wrong the test samples are my insurance in addition to providing valuable diagnostic information about the engine. In the mean time oil changes are easy, cheap and easier on the planet. We will see.

Paul

'01 Affinity 5951 40' tag

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79037
I just left Speedco where I always have my oil and filters changed and and oil analysis done. I put about 5-6k per year on the coach. From looking at multiple analyses, Speedco (who would lose money in the deal) told me that my oil viscosity at 6k is almost the same as new oil and that based on that and the other numbers (which I would be glad to share) I can go two years between changes with no problem. What do you all think?

Rich 2002 Magna
 

Re: Oil Analysis vs changing oil

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79062
Rich ,

From my experience running Commercial Fishing boats, and working them hard, my feelings are that we baby these things. I change mine every other year and also put on around
5-6000 miles a year. Could probably do 3 years with the new oil these days but just to be safe. We stop at Jerry n Kieths truck repair in Bakersfield and get ours done. They are awesome.
Marc 05 affinity #6429