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Norcold & Samsung

Yahoo Message Number: 80398
Hi,

It's good to see viable freon refrigerator options that have been successfully implemented. If a few folks out there have some photos they can email me, I'd be happy to put them out on the internet for reference. A good variety would be nice to illustrate how differences in cabinetry have been handled. Also of interest is how the Norcolds leave the bus and how the new units get inside. I assume they will fit through the access door. Color schemes and how the new refrigerators blend in with existing woodwork would also be interesting to see. Losses of drawer space (if any) would be good to document. Not sure how all this plays out in different bus layout. Pictures would go a long way towards presenting important details.

I do know that the Samsung warranty is void if the refrigerator is used in a mobile capacity. Probably not a big deal as I'm sure the units are quality and will exceed their warranty anyway. But it would be interesting to hear from Samsung on what aspects of mobile service they have determined are questionable to the refrigerator's warranty. Is it physical vibration and the possible effects on the refrigeration tubing, stresses on plastic joints, invertor power, heat, etc. ?? Just curious what the issues are.

As for the Norcold, it still remains an option if a quality cooling unit is used. Norcold's OEM cooling unit is sub-par as we all know. Pines RV Refrigeration makes a quality cooling unit which is the one we used. It's been in service (F/T) for about 18 months and it's perfectly fine. As for heat, it's normal for the area containing the two heating elements to get very hot. That hot surface doesn't automatically mean a fire is forth coming. One cause of possible fires is corrosion and eventual rupture of Norcold's cheap thin wall tubing in and around the heating elements. This is what happened to our unit. It didn't result in a fire, however. That comment is not intended to marginalize the dangers as they are present. I'm just recalling our specific situation to add to the knowledge base.

One other aspect of gas absorption cooling units is they MUST BE LEVEL to work properly. We were in dry dock (for a new radiator) back in Aridzona for 9 days jacked up. Our refrigerator was slightly out of level during that time. I was told this wouldn't be a problem but now I question whether this might have led to a premature failure. Knowing what I know now, I would never have run the refrigerator as I did. Perhaps other failures can be traced back to damaged caused by "out of level" operation. The ammonia and hydrogen mix need to flow properly in the angled portions of the cooling unit. If this flow is impeded (cooling unit not level) it can lead to crystals forming which blocks the tubing. Those crystals and impeded flow can lead to excessive heating and premature tubing failure. Potentially a dangerous situation.

As mentioned, if anyone has good photos (or can take them) they'd like to share please send them to me off the news group. I can put together a Samsung slide show which I think will have interest to many. I know I'd like to see what others are doing with these refrigerators.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 #31349
(Bus-Stead Lemon)

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80408
Scott,

Good post! I hope you get a lot of pics and additional info to publish on this very popular subject.
A few questions and comments regarding the warranty disclaimer come to mind here.
I am curious as to why Samsung voids their warranty for mobile use. But, here is a wild guess: If Samsung is like other residential refrigerator manufacturers, they ship the units with shipping blocks to keep the combo motor/compressor assembly from rocking and rolling on it's vibration dampening mounts during shipment.
Could it be that Samsung engineers are concerned about failure of the tubing from the compressor to other components? Could that tubing be subject to eventual metal fatigue failure due to mobile vibration? Mobile vibration may be much more severe that the normal, minimal vibration produced by the compressor. That minimal vibration is probably accounted for in the original design. I have seen Amana and other manufacturers' refrigerators offered in the RV OEM's. Do they all have the same disclaimer? I wonder if Samsung's disclaimer is well found by facts or is a copy of other manufacturers warranty verbiage. This happens more often than you might think. However, if it is well found and based on testing, it may be a cause for some degree of concern for us. BTW, Dometic builds a compressor type freezer that is designed for mobile RV application. No disclaimer here. Is the Dometic unit that much different than the residential refrigerators ?
As I said, it is just a WAG. I believe only the Samsung engineers and warranty loss prevention people know the real answer. I wonder if they would have the guts to go around their legal staff to provide us with the facts. Has anyone asked them?
Many new coaches are delivered with residential refrigerators installed by the OEM's in addition to the retrofit/replacements that we are discussing here. Do the OEM's include a disclaimer in their warranty?
I also wonder if Samsung is aware of the percentage of their increase in market share is attributable to the RV applications sold to the OEM's and retrofit. Just a thought that may be useful to their marketing staff.

Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure 30226

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80417
Daron - Thanks for expanding on this. I like to take a "can do" posture on innovations and atypical usages. Your comments about the resilient mounts used on the compressors are very valid. Good point which I didn't think about. Since the mobile community is much smaller than a residential customer base, we are left somewhat on our own to mix, match and innovate to get the required safety and performance that makes life a tad more enjoyable in the bus. Sadly, many of us are stuck correcting design flaws and short comings. Hats off to anyone coming forward with a good cost effective solution be it retrofit, mod or just discovering a better OEM product.
I've found the devil is always in the details when innovating, adapting or retrofitting. And it's best to know as much as possible before, during and after the installation. As for the freon units, I'm certainly not the "go to" guy on their mobile usage since I repaired my Norcold. That said, I'm still very interested in all the details. I like to learn. Each of us has specific and/or personal requirements we base our decisions on. And they, in my opinion, are best served with complete and factual information. Me thinks all the informational resources are here within this group (except for mfg specs and anomalies) and it's just a matter of organizing the data for easy consumption. People usually don't want to get jerked around when they need information. Like me, most just want to click and go read.
The do it yourselfers are usually the best with details since they have to work through solutions first hand. Let's see who jumps in on this.

At 10:52 AM 6/23/2012, you wrote:

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80419
I am in the process of aging my Samsung RF197 by running it separately from the coach.

It was delivered last Thursday from Best Buy.
I am hoping that if it is going to fail early, it will do so before it is installed.

There is a Kill-A-Watt meter on the line input.
It amazingly only showing about .8 amps of AC current with the compressor running.
The early data show that it has only consumed 1.22KWH in 22.5 hrs of operation.
I have not run it off of my MSW inverter yet, I want to collect more data on the line supply.
By the way, the schematic that is on the back of the unit shows that the compressor
is an AC one and not a DC one as indicated on the Samsung Q&A website.
The website says that they do not recommend installations in motor homes because of

ambient temperatures and unreliable power.
The warranty in the back of the owners manual makes no mention of motor homes, but does
list among other things, misuse, improper installation and incorrect line voltage. So I guess they gotcha

if push comes to shove.

Charlie

08 Inspire 52093

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80420
Charlie, you might want to run some internal temperature change tests by turning it off and checking internal temp in the freezer/frig areas via remote sensors over 1-6 hours or so.

Lee (leozbrowski@...) 2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153
CAT C-13

-------------------

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80421
Lee,

The digital display at the top of the unit shows the temps in the ref and freezer separately.

Since the ref doors must be opened to read the display from the floor, this action simulates use activity and I have been in there quite a bit.

This unit has one compressor but two evaporator coils one for the ref and one for the freezer. there is no air exchange between the two compartments.

Charlie

08 Inspire 52093

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80422
Lee

In rereading your message now I understand that you want to see the temp rise with no power applied.

I will try to work that in.

Charlie

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80423
Yes, you have it now.

If you got your hands on a remote sensor you could ready from outside without opening the doors you'd be in business for the test.

Lee

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80436
Charlie,

Does the warranty disclaimer in their web site mention the operating ambient temperature max/min tolerance? Allowable voltage variance tolerance? Daron Hairabedian, 98 Alure 30226

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80440
Charlie - As for IC based electronics, the infant mortality rate is highest in the first 400 hours of continuous operation. I usually burn all that stuff in for that amount of time. This is the best way to flush out issues well before the warranty expires. It's a good idea what you are doing. Thanks for posting the data.

At 10:09 AM 6/24/2012, you wrote:
 

Re: Norcold & Samsung

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80448
No Daron these parameters are not included in the owners manual.

An owners manual can be downloaded from their website.
I did find in the Service manual that I purchased (not from Samsung) a couple of items.

Code Translations

5 Over Load Mode----------Ambient Temp is greater than 93.2 Degrees 6 Low Temp Mode----------Ambient Temp is greater than 62.6 Degrees
These sound like error codes but it is not clear to me what they mean.

FYI

I am now running the unit on my MSW inverter, and whereas the compressor running current draw on shore power read appx. .8 AC amps it draws about double that on the inverter (1.6 AC amps), additionally, my Kill-A-Watt meter started running warm and stopped measuring voltage, current and wattage when on the inverter. It seems to not like the inverter power waveform.

My clamp on multi meter allowed me to get a reading.

Charlie

08 Inspire 52093