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AH's usage per day?

Yahoo Message Number: 100156
I understand that different models will have large ranges of Amp Hours usage per day. But I'm trying to understand how my coach is doing in the AH's usage, after a series of modifications. I will do some more tracking down of energy usage within my own coach, especially in the areas recently modified. But, had thought some sharing of AH's usage might help see if my 'range' is similar to others.

I have the 04 Allure High Cascade Model 40' (31017). I've added:

-X's 4 Lifeline AGM L16's for 800AH house bank -Magnum MS2800, with the appropriate modules added on, including the BMK-Meter -1200W of 48V high efficiency Solar Panels, feeding the MidNite Classic Controller (Been running with he above for about 16 months, and it has served me well.)

Recent mod's that effect electric usage:

-Samsung 18' Residential Fridge (The replacement unit for the RF197 that was used by many.) -40" LCD Samsung 4K TV

-Marantaz stereo (Replaced the Bose 3-2-1) -Oppo BDP95 BluRay

-WineGard Traveler with Direct Genie DVR -WineGard Auto OTA 8500 antenna (Working well so far, with just a bit less range the the crank up.) -WneGard Sensar IV crank up (not yet A/B'd in with the Auto 8500 unit). Added mostly to attach my WiFi Billet Antenna to, and get it up off the roof, and then back down an horizontal for travel.)

This is our first trip out with the above electric mod's, and surprised at the AH's usage.

For example, last night we were at 99% SOC at 8:00PM (all by the Solar Panel, and about 15 mins of generator usage while the oven was used to reheat dinner). We unplug all wall warts (phones, computers, WiFiRanger, etc.), the Dyson vacuum's battery is unplugged, no hydro hot on, no night lights, etc. Everything was off that could be off, but the still plugged in components and TV were drawing parasitic draws. And of course, the Samsung Fridge was still plugged in and running. (Ice making turned off, and on Energy Saving setting.)

From 8:00PM until I got up at 5:45AM (like to watch the sunset with a cup of joe) we were down to 83% SOC, and AH's usage of -136 AH's. THAT SEEMS LIKE ALOT TO ME? Many owners of the Samsung Fridge indicate very low 24 hours draws, as measured by a watt reader at the outlet.

At what I call 'idle', coach electronics powered up vis the salesman switch at the door, and with the MS2812 Inverter on - but everything else off that can be turned off, and again no wall warts usage, we had been BMK-Meter reading between about -6 to -8 AH's. Taking 8 AH's and going from 8:00PM to rounding up to 6:00AM, that should have been 80 AH's usage. I'm at a lost of where the other approximately -56 AH's were consumed?

I'm planning to add a powered On/Off switch to the entertainment related power outlets, and will turn them off overnight. But again, at idle, I was seeing 8 AH's draw per the BMK Meter. Suppose I'll get a watt reader to plug the Samsung into, and do a 24 hour reading. It's a new unit, perhaps something is not working right causing more energy usage during the overnight periods that I'm not aware of...

Long post, but figured this gang knew their coaches pretty dang well. And was hoping for two responses:

1) Smitty - you forgot about... to explain the -136 AH's usage in a 10 hour period

2) Share their average 24 hours AH's usage. (Before we started all of our change, and adding the larger battery bank and solar panels, I used 200 AH's per day for my planning purposes. I feel that was a 'high' number.) Curious at what others are seeing with their coaches...

Best to all, be safe and have fun,

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100171
That is very low AH usage for your rig especially with a fridge. You failed  to mention if you have a Direct TV receiver. I assume you must. Is it a DVR? Is  it plugged in all night?

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100173
Smitty,

Your usage looks about right.  Takes about 13 amps of 12VDC to make 1 amp of 120VAC through the inverter considering efficiency loss, inverter overhead, etc.  The Samsung draws around 1 amp per hour at 120VAC, maybe a little less at night with cooler temps and you not opening the door.  With hardly anything else running, about 130 amps of battery power in 10 hours is correct.

Depending upon how you wired the BMK, the readings may not be correct.  The BMK needs to be placed between the entire battery bank's negative cable and a ground.  In many cases, the battery bank has other things attached to individual battery terminals that provide another path to ground.  So the BMK will provide an accurate State of Charge, but not an accurate gauge of amp hours out. Typical wiring attached directly to individual battery perminals include solar, sensors, accessory add-ons, dual bank battery combiners, etc.

I have a similar setup to you.  Samsung refrigerator, DirecTV, dual inverters, 1000AH of battery bank, 900 watts of solar.  I have propane to heat water and cook.  Typical non-conservative use of the coach in 24 hours to include water pump, LED lights, watch TV, use Internet, microwave off inverter, etc. consumes around 400 amps of battery power.  A sunny summer day will easily cover that usage and leave the battery bank near full as the sun goes down.  I show peak solar charging at around 58AH with around 45-50AH x 6 hours and lesser amounts as long as the sun is shining.

Al

2006 Allure #31440

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100176
Smitty,

You've done what I'm about to do in my 2008 Allure 470 38' tag.
 I was considering 6-L16's but decided to go w 4.  I have the space to add 2 later, if needed. Your decision to try it with 400Ah at 50% DOD encourages me that another agrees.
 I installed the same refer 2 mos ago and intended to run my Kil-o-Watt.  I wanted to wait until temps got warmer. That's now; so, it'll get hooked up this week. I will post what I get. Like you, I'm expecting a low wattage use at something like 3.5 avg Ah/24 hrs/avg 72*.
 Please share which panels you chose and where you bought them. Putting 1,200 on my 38' May not be possible and stay unshaded; but that's my goal, too.
 If I understand your post, you're saying the bank lost 136 AH OVERNIGHT!  That CAN'T be right. I'm estimating 140-160 for a whole day, depending on MW/Conv and induction cooktop use. I HOPE your 136 is wrong.
 Some thoughts:  I assume you moved the refer circuit to the inverter panel. Using a Doc Wattson, you might compare the 12VDC going thru the panel to the Kil-o-Wat nos. if it's wired right, try pulling the main 50A breaker to insure the inverter's not powering some secret load that's wired wrong. Lastly, is there any way you can check the SOC of the L16's directly without depending on the Magnum gear?  It'd be difficult to convert voltage to Ah, but it might tell you something.

Thanks for your post. I'm coming right behind you.

Jerry Lewis
31611 McK TX

Sent from my phone.

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100183
Thanks for the info sharing!

Yes the BMK is wired properly.

Yes to DirecTV DVR plugged in, though off, over night. (I do have the control to the Trav'ler powered off, after locking on - so some help.)

Yes that 136 AH usage was from just the nighttime span. I've repeated the check daily now for 5 days, and it is from 122 AH to 138 AH so far. (Same thing as mentioned, everything 'off' and or 'idling'. So the coach does pull some juice out of batteries while practically doing nothing:)! All the little light switches shining green, LP Detector, mention TV, etc., etc..)

Yesterday, was sitting at 80% SOC when I got up, fired off the coffee pot, and for grins the Hydro Hot and front registers. 30 mins later, at 78% SOC when the sun first hit the panels to start AH's positive feed.

I will see 55 - 65 AH's during the day, and usually am 100% SOC by early afternoon. (A change with the Samsung + stereo + DVR, etc. in the mix, as before it was usually before noon.)

More info on charge equipment:

X's 5 Sharp/Panasonic 240W 48V High Efficiency panels. From Direct Wholesale Solar http://directwholesalesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Panasonic-HIT-240S-Data-Sheet.pdf

MidNight Classic Controller

X's 4 L16's

Magnum MS2812 PSW, plus supporting components. (The idle is not real bad, so I decided to not put in a dedicated Inverter for the fridge. Felt I had the 800AH, 400AH usable (though I usually target 70% SOC as the low side). While I did have some problems with the BMK Meter reading at first, working with our tech we got it all set up properly - so feel it is accurate. (Still adding the similar meter reading to the MidNight Classic, so I'll have redundancy of readings to 'cross check'. Did this due to the MidNight  can be ethernet or usb'd into our wireless router port, and then I can status via a computer of droid AP, even doing so remotely.)

I think I mentioned in the first post, that we do not use our Hydro Hot for heating overnight. Using a Heat Buddy stubbed into the LP line that used to feed the Norcold. So that saves quite a bit of draw for both the burner itself, and also the registers fans.

Admit we're still learning how it all fits together now, but so far I'm OK with the staying well above 70% SOC after overnight. Will add back in the wall wart related items, and the Dyson charger into the mix, to see how this does for a few days.

Finally, I'm going do some checking on instant AH's usage reading, and check things out with different components powered up, then off, to see the impact of each item.

Thanks again for the info sharing, and keep any tips and advice please coming in:)!

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100188
Al, a follow up to what you told Smitty:
 Because there are so many things that instruct us to attach them "directly to the battery", I don't attach ANY of them. Instead, the big battery cables go thru a cat fuse on pos side and shunt on neg side to a multi-post buss terminal. Then, everybody who needs to play with the bank gets fed from there.
 So, are you saying that my BMK is one user that DOES need to attach directly to the bank's positive lug?  Same Q for neg wire?  My BMK is still in its box; so, I haven't looked at it. Does it have or want a fuse bt the bank connections and the wall mounted meter?  If so, where does it go?  I normally put fuses as close as possible to the voltage supply. )

Sent from my phone.

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100189
Smitty,

If what they're saying is true, a bank w 400Ah at 50% DOD may only be good for one day. Does this cause you (and now me) to wish for 6-L16's (600Ah @ 50%) instead of 4?

Jerry Lewis
31611 McK TX

2008 Allure 470 38' tag

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100194
A side note on this topic:

"Yes to DirecTV DVR plugged in, though off, over night."

A DVR will continue to draw a lot of power even in the off position. Even while switched off it completes any scheduled recordings and downloads the most current program schedules and updates. I cut the power to the DVR completely when I'm trying to conserve AH. I also cut the power to the DVR when traveling so the hard drives won't get damaged.

Jim Coshow

2005 Inspire 51501

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100195
Smithy,

Did you hook those panels up in parallel, or some other way?  I'm a little surprised the Classic will take that much voltage/amperage coming down if parallel.

Jerry

31611 2008 Allure 470 38' tag

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100196
Jerry - Set up in parallel. Classic 150 is rated 80-96 AH. I used their sizing tool to determine that the Classic 150 was more then adequate. Then called and reviewed my numbers with their Tech Support (nice people, easy to work with, kind to non experts too).

Here is a PDF, scroll down to the Comparison Chart area, good one page reading on the product.

http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/theClassics.pdf

Best,

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100197
Jerry - On battery bank size. I came very close to making the battery compartment changes that Dallas (Search the pictures on what he did with his Intrigue. Don't recall seeing posts from Dallas anymore. May have moved on, or may have been just too frustrated with the Yahoo User Group format (Yep, free, but they made something that was not too slick to begin with, even less so... I feel Yahoo is missing a great opportunity by not putting some attention into format and feature sets to support the many User Groups. They need all the help they can get, to bring people to their boards, User Group volumes would be much higher, IMO, if the format and feature sets did not suck (Techie talk) much. Rant off!:)!) Dallas made some great mod's to his coach, all good reading.

What he did too the battery bank, was move things around to fit X's 5 8D's in the compartment, with the 5th battery on its side.

But, I do feel more then supported with up too (again, my plan is to use 70% SOC as the low side of usage) 400AH's averrable. We have the Solar Panel, we have the generator also if needed. The Magnum MS2812 Charger is set specifically to the unique Lifeline setting for charging. The MidNight Classic 150 is customize exactly as Lifeline recommends for this battery. (I talked with Lifeline Tech's a few times, and one even suggested I could bump up the Absorb a little bit higher (written down, did not do it, and forgot what he suggested would be OK) as well as move out the max tim for Absorb another 30-45 mins. I decided to try things with what they have published for two reasons. 1) If I ever had a problem with the batteries and they wanted to review my settings - I'm running with what they have documented. 2) If I did not like what was going on, and wanted to risk it, I could always go try the other settings for a few months and see. Have not needed too so far.

Thought I do feel 800AH bank is solid, if you have the room or don't mind losing storage in another bay for 2 more L16's. And if the extra weight and $$ is something you are OK absorbing. Then sure, add in the other two... Tim Allen would be Grunting about now!!

Best,

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100198
Thanks Jim on making sure I knew about the 'off usage' of DVR's. Yes to all of you input on that. As I play with the BMK- Meters AH usage readings, I suspect to see the DVR in the turned on to use mode (Wife calls this the 'line of blue lights'.) that it will draw very little extra over what it does in idle.

Best,

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100201
For those of you that have, or are, adding a BMK Meter (Or any Battery Monitor Meter, as many good ones exists), I feel Al's post is very important to consider in the wiring approach.

When in doubt, get a competent shop to do it for you the right way. AM Solar, Stellar Solar, Temecula Valley RV, Solar Bob, Jack Mayer, and many others - are all very competent in knowing what and how to be sure these meters are installed correctly.

And, the documentation provided by Magnum, MidNite, and many other products - are usually very straight forward in regards to the 'wiring aspects' of setting up supported metering devices. (This is truly a 'Funnel Approach' where all power 'Out' and 'In' are Shunt Valve dependent to pick up good readings:)!

Best to all, again thanks to all for the info sharing and tips, be safe, have fun,

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100209
Jerry,

The installation of the BMK is best visualized with a single battery.  With a single battery, the BMK shunt is on the negative cable and measures the current flow.  The State of Charge (SOC) is calculated by converting the measured battery voltage into a percentage.  The positive cable would have a fuse and a shut off switch as needed.

If you now want to monitor multiple batteries in one bank, then the batteries need to be connected so that the ALL current passing through the bank flows through the BMK shunt.  If you connect items to the individual battery negative terminals that provide an alternative path to ground, not all current being consumed is passing through the BMK shunt, giving a false (lower) reading.

The BMK does not have multiple voltage inputs for each battery, your SOC in a battery bank is based upon only one input voltage.

Assuming you have all grounded loads running through the BMK shunt, battery banks can be wired in different ways with different results.

For example, assume you have four identical batteries in one battery bank, numbered 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Scenario #1 - You wire jumpers from the positive and negative posts from battery 1 to the corresponding terminals of battery 2, then to battery 3, then to battery 4.  You connect the inverter and BMK shunt to battery #1.  Battery 1 will be worked very hard, followed by 2, 3, and then 4.  Your BMK will accurately read AH consumed but will be reading the SOC of battery 1.

Scenario #2 - You wire the battery bank the same as Scenario #1, but connect the inverter positive cable to battery 1 and the inverter negative cable with BMK shunt to battery 4.  Again, the BMK AH reading will be accurate, but the SOC of the entire bank may be low due to the resistance of all the wires between battery 1 and 4.  Batteries 1 and 4 are also being worked harder than batteries 2 and 3.

Scenario #3 - You wire the positive terminals from all batteries with identical length cable to a bus bar.  You do the same for negative terminals to a separate bus bar.  You attach the inverter and BMK to the bus bars.  All batteries are worked at the same level.  All BMK readings are the most accurate.

Al

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100212
Al,

Thanks for the helpful hand-holding; but I think #3 works only for 12V batteries. How does #3 work if I had, say, 6-6V's?  My guess is I series each pair and then run ea pair to the bus bar. Yes?
 I also think this needs 2 bus bars (which I don't mind doing).  The 2d set of bars follows the shunt (-) and the catastrophe fuse and bank kill switch (+). Now we have the 2nd (real) set of buses to attach the solar controller, DC panel, inverter, alternator, and whatever to their own posts or breakers. Easier to service and find trouble wo having to take all loads off single posts. As I understand it, this gets the measuring/metering stuff "at" the battery but before things that interfere.
 BTW: in the above, I left out all the breakers (or switches and fuses) needed for the loads coming to and going away from my 2nd bus.

Jerry

31611 2008 Allure 470 38' tag
McK TX

Sent from my phone.
 

Re: AH's usage per day?

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 100225
First part yes 6 volt paired and then parallel to buss bars, 1 negative and 1 positive bar.

If you want to measure all in and out then the shunt has to be between the battery and all power sources and loads.

This allows you to measure net power from solar and use.

Ray O 
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