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Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Yahoo Message Number: 102874
Hi Group,

My 2004 Allure had a surge protector with a by-pass switch. According to  the manual the by-pass switch only disabled the high/low voltage cutoff and does  not disable the surge protection itself. The difference being that surges are  spikes in voltage or current that are of a very short duration and typically  high values. High and low voltage conditions are of a much longer duration.  Basically the by-pass switch is there for trouble shooting and should not be  left in the by-pass state for extended periods of time.
 Open neutrals (not open grounds) can be difficult to detect depending on  many different factors. The  neutral (white wire in 120 volt circuits)  ultimately is connected through the wiring to a lug on the power company  transform that internally connects to the midpoint of the transformer's 240 volt  secondary coil. Therefore the voltage from either hot leg to the neutral lug  will by 1/2 of the 240 volts measured between the two hot legs or 120 volts. Any  device connected to the neutral and one of the hot legs, often wall outlets,  will see the 120 volts provided that the neutral wire is if fact connected to  the neutral lug at the transformer. If the neutral wire becomes disconnected  anywhere along the way then we have the condition know as an open neutral also  often called a floating neutral. Having lost the reference to the transformer  neutral the voltage between it and the 240 volt hot leg can assume virtually any  value between 0 and 240 volts. it can float around dependent on many factors  circuit loading having the biggest influence. The difference between the current  in the two hot legs must travel back to the source via the neutral wire. Without  that path thing get very complicated. It would be very difficult to calculate  beforehand. Fortunately floating neutrals are a fairly uncommon event but can  cause some extensive damage to electrical components. A surge protector may or  may not be able to detect it in time since voltages are floating around and  usually constantly seeing big changes. There is no guarantee of it.
 Floating neutrals were the bane of my former existence as a power company  distribution engineer.

Don Seager

Former CC Owner

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102877
Excellent description Don... Thanks for taking the time to send it.  Helped me improve my understanding of the term.

John Coleman

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102880
Hey Don,

I have a few old rental homes.  The older homes have the common ground wired to neutral bar.  I wonder if that cause any problems with the transformers ..

Bob

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102881
Great post, Don.  Thanks for taking the time to explain to all of us engineer wannabe's.  I had a terrible time this summer with low voltage at an RV park in upstate New York which had inadequate wiring for 50A power hookups.  Fortunately my Allegro Bus has a very sophisticated power management system which would shut down the whole system when voltage got too low, to protect appliances from damage.  This was disconcerting, to say the least, when the A/C would cut out suddenly.  It was our only indication since everything else runs on the inverter and the transition is seamless.  But the panel would now read "no service" instead of "50A service."  And because there is a 2 minute delay before it reconnects to the pedestal, we didn't know WHAT was going on!

I learned a lot during this entire episode.  I gained an indepth understanding about 50A power being 50A on each leg for a total of 100A available and how to see what each appliance draws by reading the LED panel on my power management system control panel. And also how to watch the line voltage fluctuations in each leg.  I learned where my surge protector and transfer switch are located (kind of hidden).  And with the recommendation of another savvy owner, I went ahead and purchased from Amazon Prime this TRCI Voltage Regulator: Surge Guard® Voltage Regulator - 120V, 30A and 120/240V, 50A | Technology...

I linked to this before in my prior post, but I cannot say enough good things about this item.  A pal of mine who is an electrical engineer didn't even know it was available in a relatively compact unit like this. It automatically smooths out the voltage on each leg and maintains it in the proper range to protect appliances. Expensive tool, but worth its weight in gold.  Really, ALL expensive coaches should be fitted with one of these.

I also bought two of these inexpensive little goodies - AC Voltage Line Meter - which I keep plugged in 24/7 where I can see them from my recliner.
Amazon.com: Prime Products 12-4055 AC Voltage Line Meter: Automotive

I glance at them occasionally to keep an eye on the line voltage and if I have any concerns I go and look at my panel.
 Electrical has always been somewhat of a mystery to me.  Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Joseph Burkle

2010 Tiffin Allegro Bus 43QRP

43' quad slide tag axle ISL 425 HP pusher
formerly:

2008 Country Coach Inspire 360 Founders Edition
Wind-seeker.com
As an Amazon Associate Country Coach Owners Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102883
Anyone know if it's okay to put tire dressing on rv tires?


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Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102884
Folks, just install a Progressive EMS and you will not have to worry about  any of this. It will protect you and also tell you what the problem is.

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102885
Bravo Rich. Been using this product for 8 years, never a problem. Company has great customer service too.

Lee (leozbrowski@...) President, CCI

2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153
CAT C-13

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102887
I have used 303 protectant for years now on all my vehicle tires, plastic and vinyl trim, etc. with excellent results. Not too crazy about some of the "tire dressings" because they contain petroleum distillates that can effect the tire rubber.
'03 Intrigue 42 Ovation

'13 Equinox AWD 4-down toad.

'96 Honda Goldwing 1500SE on Overbilt lift.

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102888
The hardest part of dressing RV tires is figuring out if they are male or  female and straight or gay.....

ROFL

Mikee

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102890
Bob,

I am not sure which transformers you are referring to but if you mean the  power company transformer there will be no problems. Being rental properties you  might want to make sure the local wiring inspector is ok with everything as it  stands. Don't want to open up a liability loophole. Not much to do with RV's so  I will leave it at that.

Don Seager

Former CC Owner

Hey Don,

I have a few old rental homes.  The older homes have the  common ground wired to neutral bar.  I wonder if that cause any  problems with the transformers ..

Bob

Country coach: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102891
Good day.

Not sure how this works but will give it a shot.

My 2002 Allure ground power was working fine, just came back from big trip.  Going on a new trip, everything works on generator, ground power not working.

First noticed it on 110V, has an error light.  Plugged into 50amp  220V, no power.

I assume the transfer switch is not transferring.  No warnng lights on 220V and the bypass switch does nothing.

Any suggestions?

Sincerely,

Louis Mindes
Louis Mindes

mindes@...

2002 Allure 40' Crown Point
30679

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102900
Bob,

New homes a re wired this way as well. At the primary disconnect the  neutral and ground must be bonded. Any sub panel after the main must have  isolated ground and neutral.

Mikee
 

Re: Surge protectors and Open Neutrals

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 102901
best thing I have found for tires is "Just Once Tire vinyl, leather, rubber, and hard plastic cleaner protectant"

http://www.justonce.com/

no petroleum distillates on silicone... saw it first at Quartzsite RV show.  303 is a good product and is ok for tires but doesn't lend any sheen, Just Once gives a light sheen... and it ;lasts... and unlike petroleum products your tires don't turn brown after a while

Joseph Burkle

2010 Tiffin Allegro Bus 43QRP

43' quad slide tag axle ISL 425 HP pusher
formerly:

2008 Country Coach Inspire 360 Founders Edition
Wind-seeker.com