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Inverter-Generator Problem

Yahoo Message Number: 1658
We have a 2001 Affinity 42 B&B all-electric model. While we love the coach, we have had a recurring problem with the inverters overheating when we are running off the generator. It is heat related, in that the hotter the day, the faster the problem arises. No problem when connected to shore power.
For a while (from the first day we owned the coach until this January) it was mostly a nuisance. CC had our dealer, Lazy Days, install two new Freedom 458 Model 25 this January. Now the problem is much more than a nusiance, we cannot dry camp. Twice so far we have had the generator's controller board replaced, and I hope the third time occurs on Monday the 29th when I take it to the Onan Service Center in Mobile. Each time previously the generator gave an error code 3, then 27 (which means seek adult supervision and do nothing else) and so we know this problem. Simulataneously with the generator issue, the Link units report "E-06" which (I think ) means the inverter has overheated. I am concerned that the new inverters have been frying the generator controller board.
While both CC and Lazy Days have been helpful addressing the problem, obviously they have no fix so far. We had hoped to begin our long planned six-mnth "Big Sky" trip on Tuesday, though that appears unlikely right now. Anyone else have this problem? Scott Laidig
Affinity 5957

slaidig@...
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Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1659
This should not be happening Scott. An inverter should not overheat when you are running off a gen or shore. Your 120v appliances should be drawing directly off the AC so you should be inverting very little if nothing. Only when you try to invert too much juice (12 v to 120 without shore or Gen) for too long would an inverter heat up but they have circuit breakers that protect them. The inverter also serves as a battery charger when you gen or shore connect.. if that inverter isnt setup properly for the correct battery type, it cause overheating. Sounds like you're getting some power feedback into the inverter due to the failure of a solenoid relay or something similar. You can get a clamp type ammeter that will show you the current draw from your inverter when you are inverting with engine off, with engine running, with ac connected and with gen running. This may give you some clue as to what's happening. It would be interesting to see if any other affinity all electric models have similar problems. I switched from the Heart inverter CC put in to a TRACE inverter with the automatic gen start/stop on the advice of an excellent RV repair center. They claim to have had much fewer problems with the TRACE. It was an expensive switch but Im glad I did it.
Make sure you document these problems in writing certified/return receipt to CC so if they havent corrected in warranty (assuming you still have warranty left) so they'll be obligated to stay with the problem until it is fixed no matter how long it takes.

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1661
Sounds like Jim might be on to something with the wiring concerns. Not sure if you can easily have that tracked down in the next couple of days.
I also have an 01 Affinity --# 5972 and have gotten an over heating code a few times. Can't remember the specific code, but I believe that the generator was NOT running at the time. I installed a small cooling fan near the top of the storage bay access door, then cut a round hole in the door so the air could exit into the storage bay. I then wired the fan into the thermostat on the back wall of the compartment so both fans would go on at the same time. I did this about a year ago and have not had the error code. BUT I have not been in real warm climates during that time either. We're planing a 3 month trip out west, starting 6/1, so hopefully we will not have the problem occur again.

Best of luck, and please let me know how your situation turns out.

Denny Zarnt
2001 Affinity # 5972

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1662
I can't help with your problem but your trip caught my attention. If you haven't been to MT before, don't miss the cherries from the Flat Head Lake area.

Hope the solve your gen-inverter headache.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Member: CCI, FMCA
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1675
Sum ting wong! The inverters are being overloaded by something. It sounds like a near short circuit on both inverters. Both the inverters and the generator should be protected. The inverter protection is working but the generator protection is not. Sounds like a wiring error somewhere. A good electrical shop should be able to find it. jerry in NM, '00 Magna.

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1677
Five possible reasons why your having problems. I've put them in the order that I would troubleshoot:
1.   The inverter and coach are incorrectly wired. Verify that the input to the inverter is 120/240v and that each leg, ground and returns are wired correctly. Problems could arise if the inverter is set to 240V input and only getting 120V from the GENSET, or the ground wires are not connected correctly. Also verify that the input from the shore power cord and the GENSET output is the same voltage. The inverter is likely to work with an incorrect input selection, but would overheat. this would explain the differences between shore power and GENSET.

2.   The inverter is performing a BULK charge of your batteries at roughly ~30amp AC input. During the BULK charge, the inverter overheats. Since your getting GENSET errors, also, I'm putting this as my #2 place to look. Potential overheat causes:
a.   GENSET is not putting out a full 60Hz while under load.
Lower frequency causes a higher load on the GENSET and will over- stress the inverters charging circuitry, causing a heat problem. The GENSET output would need to drop to 45hz ? 50hz to become a problem ? you would hear the RPM drop as more AC is drawn.
b.   GENSET is undersized for the coach and the amount of AC load on-board. With 30 amps going to the inverter, there is 30A x 120v = 3600 watts being used by the inverter alone. Oven, refer, icemaker, lights, AC units, hot water, TV, etc could be overloading the GENSET and causing a drop in RPM's, which decreases the AC frequency, which increases the amperage and increases the heat inside the inverter.
c.   A Short in ONE house battery is driving the inverter to charge at FULL output (BULK charge) for an extended period of time.
d.   A Short in ONE starting battery is driving the inverter to charge at FULL output (BULK charge) for an extended period of time.
During charging of the house battery, I believe the starting battery bank is also charged.
e.   Poor 12V DC leads (too long, undersized, etc.) from the inverter to the battery is causing excess current/voltage drop during BULK charge and tricks the inverter is sensing (or not sensing?) that the batteries never reach full charge. A quick DC voltage check at the inverter's output and at the battery terminal will uncover any voltages. FAT, SHORT CABLES are BEST here!
3.   Poor ventilation where the inverter is mounted. Try to open the access panel or bay door and improve ventilation. Poor ventilation or pre-heating occurs due to co-location of inverter with a hot water tank, engine, exhaust, etc. I once installed a small 12v fan in a friends' boat to fix his similiar problem. His inverter was receiving pre-heated air from the refer unit.

4.   The BULK charge rate is incorrectly set on the Inverter. The BULK charge rate must match the type of batteries you have on board.
If you upgraded your coach to gel-cell or golf-cart style batteries, you may need to change the setting on the inverter/charger. NEVER replace one battery in a battery bank. ALL batteries in the same battery bank need to be exactly the same type and same size for ideal performance.

5.   Likewise, verify that the inverter output matches your
battery configuration. On dedicated battery banks for the inverter, the batteries can be easily wired in series to provide either 6V (golf cart batteries in parallel), 12V, 24V (2 ea 12V batteries in series) , or 36V (3ea 12V batteries in series). Mismatched outputs could cause problems, although the same problem would exist when your plugged into shore power.

I had 3 big boats with lots of batteries, gensets, and inverter systems. Don't count on the factory or dealer to fix it, sometimes it takes GOOD LUCK to find your problem. I also carry a handheld multimeter and a small clamp for measuring AC and DC currents.

cheers,
Bill

'95 Intrigue #10005

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1679
2.d. is an incorrect statement, the start battery has
it's own charger located usually on the ceiling to the left of the inverter in a black box about 4x4x2 inches.

--- weekend_roadwarrior 4stroker@...> wrote:

Quote
Five possible reasons why your having problems.
I've put them in the

order that I would troubleshoot: >

1.   The inverter and coach are incorrectly wired.
Verify that

the input to the inverter is 120/240v and that each > leg, ground and

returns are wired correctly. Problems could arise > if the inverter is

set to 240V input and only getting 120V from the > GENSET, or the

ground wires are not connected correctly. Also > verify that the

input from the shore power cord and the GENSET > output is the same

voltage. The inverter is likely to work with an > incorrect input

selection, but would overheat. this would explain > the differences

between shore power and GENSET.

2.   The inverter is performing a BULK charge of your > batteries at

roughly ~30amp AC input. During the BULK charge, > the inverter

overheats. Since your getting GENSET errors, also, > I'm putting this

as my #2 place to look. Potential overheat causes: > a.   GENSET is not putting out a full 60Hz while under > load.

Lower frequency causes a higher load on the GENSET > and will over-

stress the inverters charging circuitry, causing a > heat problem. The

GENSET output would need to drop to 45hz ? 50hz to > become a problem ?

you would hear the RPM drop as more AC is drawn.
b.   GENSET is undersized for the coach and the amount > of AC load

on-board. With 30 amps going to the inverter, there > is 30A x 120v =

3600 watts being used by the inverter alone. Oven, > refer, icemaker,

lights, AC units, hot water, TV, etc could be > overloading the GENSET

and causing a drop in RPM's, which decreases the AC > frequency, which

increases the amperage and increases the heat inside > the inverter.

c.   A Short in ONE house battery is driving the > inverter to

charge at FULL output (BULK charge) for an extended > period of time.

d.   A Short in ONE starting battery is driving the > inverter to

charge at FULL output (BULK charge) for an extended > period of time.

During charging of the house battery, I believe the > starting battery

bank is also charged.

e.   Poor 12V DC leads (too long, undersized, etc.) > from the

inverter to the battery is causing excess > current/voltage drop during

BULK charge and tricks the inverter is sensing (or > not sensing?) that

the batteries never reach full charge. A quick DC > voltage check at

the inverter's output and at the battery terminal > will uncover any

voltages. FAT, SHORT CABLES are BEST here! >

3.   Poor ventilation where the inverter is mounted.
Try to open

the access panel or bay door and improve > ventilation. Poor

ventilation or pre-heating occurs due to co-location > of inverter with

a hot water tank, engine, exhaust, etc. I once > installed a small 12v

fan in a friends' boat to fix his similiar problem.
His inverter was

receiving pre-heated air from the refer unit.

4.   The BULK charge rate is incorrectly set on the > Inverter. The

BULK charge rate must match the type of batteries > you have on board.

If you upgraded your coach to gel-cell or golf-cart > style batteries,

you may need to change the setting on the > inverter/charger. NEVER

replace one battery in a battery bank. ALL > batteries in the same

battery bank need to be exactly the same type and > same size for ideal
performance.

5.   Likewise, verify that the inverter output matches > your

battery configuration. On dedicated battery banks > for the inverter,

the batteries can be easily wired in series to > provide either 6V

(golf cart batteries in parallel), 12V, 24V (2 ea > 12V batteries in

series) , or 36V (3ea 12V batteries in series).
Mismatched outputs

could cause problems, although the same problem > would exist when your
plugged into shore power.

I had 3 big boats with lots of batteries, gensets, > and inverter

systems. Don't count on the factory or dealer to > fix it, sometimes

it takes GOOD LUCK to find your problem. I also > carry a handheld

multimeter and a small clamp for measuring AC and DC > currents.

cheers,
Bill

'95 Intrigue #10005
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1680
I should have stated that the starting batteries MAY be wired into to the inverter's charger. Since the Inverter has a superior 3-output charger and is much better (in most cases... always exceptions) than any stand-alone charging unit, it is wise to use one of the outputs for the starting bank (it's free!).
BTW, if your coach does have a separate "black box" for charging the starting bank, you should compare the specs and you may decide to use the one of the inverter's output for charging.

Bill

'95 Intrique #10005
FMCA

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1681
In aao4p3+n2fg@...>, on 05/01/02

at 09:49 AM, "weekend_roadwarrior" 4stroker@...> said:
On my '99 Intrigue, the connection between the house and chassis batteries works like this:

The two sets of batteries are just ganged together by a relay when the coach engine is running (using an oil pressure switch, which has failed in some coaches) OR when the battery boost switch is depressed on the driver's console.

Also, when the house batteries' voltage is above a certain level a Heart Echo charger ("little black box") uses the house batteries to trickle charge the chassis battery.

Jim Ott

Intrigue 10865

Quote
>I should have stated that the starting batteries MAY be wired into to >the inverter's charger. Since the Inverter has a superior 3-output >charger and is much better (in most cases... always exceptions) than any >stand-alone charging unit, it is wise to use one of the outputs for the >starting bank (it's free!).

BTW, if your coach does have a separate "black box" for charging the >starting bank, you should compare the specs and you may decide to use >the one of the inverter's output for charging.

Bill

95 Intrique #10005
FMCA

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1682
That's the configuration on my coach.

Is there any indication when the oil pressure switch fails?

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Member: CCI, FMCA
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1683
In 0201a8c0@...>, on 05/01/02

at 11:00 AM, "MayMR" maymr@...> said:
Nope, but I think the coach and house batteries should read the same voltage with the engine running.

Quote
>That's the configuration on my coach.

Is there any indication when the oil pressure switch fails?

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Member: CCI, FMCA
 

Re: Inverter-Generator Problem

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1684
Here's an alert to those who have had some problems with these issues.

My house batteries were not charging when the engine was running.
CC told me it was either the oil pressure switch or the solenoid.
I check and sure enough the solenoid was not working but it was stuck in the 'closed' position which would mean the relay was activated. I checked the relay and it seemed to have continuity between the house battery and chassis battery side, but I talked with Lee at CC and he said that even though you might see continuity, the contacts may be eroded inside and not passing very much current.
So I replaced both the relay and the oil pressure switch. It appears to be fine now. I noticed that the original solenoid relay they were using was made in mexico. the new one they sent me is made in the good old USA.

Wonder if they learned a quality lesson here.
On my coach the oil pressure switch is easily accessible from underneath the coach right by the service bay. You have to be on a creeper on your back to do it. Raise the back airbags and lower the front gives you plenty of room. The relay on my unit is inside the service bay on the wall just behind

the webasco furnance. A little tricky to get at and it took me longer than I anticipated. About 2 hours to replace.

Jim Boldebook
99 Magna 5655