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One plug-in Electrical Circuit

Yahoo Message Number: 3678
We have the Heart Interface Freedom 20 (2000 watt inverter) with the Link 1000 remote panel above the entry door. I have read the product manuals several times and still come away confused as to which features our rig has. I have been reluctant to say much to the group about the electrical system in our coach. We bought it used in August 2002 and are overwhelm with all of the things to learn. I think the inverter is the "Bottle Neck" for the 110 volt plug ins. Our previous coach did not have an inverter, that is probably why we have two separate electrical plug-in circuits. I have all of the maintenance records from the previous owner and it appears he was having battery trouble on March 2001. With only taking delivery on Jan 2001. I noticed the current batteries (8d's) have a date stamp of April 2002. I am surprised with all of the Group chatter of battery problems, that Country Coach does not install a true Deep cycle battery sets in such an expensive coach. My house batteries are already have sulfate residue floating on top of the acid. And I now realize that before we start full timing, with occasional dry camping periods, in Jan 2005 we will have to buy some true deep cycle house batteries...
Lee & Kris- '01 Intrigue #11219

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3679
Not sure what "true" Deep Cycle batteries are, but 2 of my 8D's are Deep Cycle and the chassis is the engine cranking type.

Would still like for capacity.
Herb

CC Allure 2002 #30690

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3682
Lee

I had the same battery setup in my 2000 Allure you have except I did not have the Link 1000 control. The Allure only had a remote ON/OFF switch in the panel above the door to control the Freedom 20 inverter. My two 8D house batteries were the original Les Schwab batteries installed by Country Coach. The manufactured date on the batteries were 12-99. Of the two one had a totally dead cell and the other had a marginal cell when checked with a hydrometer. I had both the batteries load tested that confirmed my findings. The engine battery is also an 8D, but maintains a good charge and all specific gravity reading are normal for all cells. The two house batteries were labeled deep cycle. However, I question that they were since they were no heavier than the engine battery. Deep cycle batteries have more lead plate surfaces, thus making the batteries noticably heavier.

The primary cause for a dead or weak cell in a wet lead-acid battery is improper maintenance. A dry cell and/or sulfating of the plates are the culprits usually. Batteries begin to act funny when they begin to go dead. Usually you notice that the charge seems to not last as long but yet the battery seems to accept a charge. However, the charging time begins to take a shorter and shorter time period.
This is one of the first indications of a cell going bad due to a sulfate buildup. The only way to hedge this is to do equalization periodicaly. Many say that 2-3 time a year is sufficient.
However, the frequency actually depends on the number of cycles of discharge and charge the batteries go through. If you are an occasional dry camper or inverter user, then a couple time per year would suffice. However, if you are doing more dry camping and inverter use than anything else, then 3-4 times per year may be needed. Deep cycle batteries are only going to last just so many cycles of discharge and charge. Many of the battery manufacturers will provide that kind of cycle specification one can expect to get from a deep cycle. Some will not.

After taking a careful look at my Freedom 20 system, I discovered that there was no way to equalize my batteries. I felt that it would be foolish to install new batteries unless I could properly maintain them. The Freedom 20 has a three level charge function as well as the capability to equalize the batteries. However, with only the remote ON/OFF switch you cannot access that function in my Allure. I called Country Coach and discovered that the only way was to install a Freedom Remote Control Panel. The installation was simple since it used the same RJ45 control cable already in place for the ON/OFF switch. I took the monitor panel above the door down, unplugged the ON/OFF switch and plugged the RJ-45 cable into the new control panel I had mounted in a shadow box just above the monitor panel. Worked like a champ.

With the new control panel installed, I figured I would see what I could do to try to salvage some additional use out of the 8D house batteries. So, I charged the batteries until they indicated full charge. I then initialized the equalization process. When finished about 8 hours later, I checked the batteries with a hydrometer.
Nothing changed. Still had one battery with a bad cell and the other with a marginal cell. So, next step was to find some batteries.

I began looking for the best ampere-hour and cycle ratings. I quickly discovered that most deep cycles are not warranteed for more than 12-18 months max. Also, unless I wanted to pay $300-400 for a Rolls 8D deep cycle battery, I was not ging to find the maximum capacity. I considered AGM and other sealed batteries. But then I remembered why I do not like them from my experiences with them in other vehicles. Like the Die Hard, when they die, they die hard. At least with the wet cell you can check and see when a battery is about to go bad before it does. I don't mind the routine of periodically checking the batteries. Having spent the past 37 years working in aviation for the USN, I am somewhat accustomed to the scheduled maintenance routine.

I then looked at the Trojan golf cart batteries. The T-105, T-125 and T-145 all offered the same amp-hour or greater capacity than the 8D's when paired together for a 12-volt bank. The Trojan batteries also offered a better cycle rating and warranty. The warranty is total replacement first 12 months and prorated from there through 36 months. The foot print of the Trojan batteries I was considering were all the same and took up less area than the 8D's. The Trojan's were a bit taller, but my battery compartment could handle the heighth with no problem.

Bottom line....I installed four T-145 Trojan's, built a storage box for my hydrometer to go in the space remaining in the battery tray and fabricated a 2x2 aluminum brace to keep everything in place. I did this about three weeks ago and so far everything seem to work as it should. The real test will be this coming week when we travel to Ft. Myers for the Snowbird Rally and then to the Super Show in Tampa. I am going to give the system a workout and see how it performs.

Jim & Barb Hughes
Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3688
Jim,

Good description and sounds like a good plan. Please keep us posted on your results.

I plan to do something about my similar battery headaches.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3698
Jim,

Did you have to put any support under the golf cart batteries. I believe the 8Ds get their support at each end because they sit on a major piece of the frame there. Golf batteries aren't long enough to do that so it seems some sort of undersupport would have to be installed. Is that true?

Thanks
Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

Quote from: Jim Hughes\[br\
"]
Lee

I had the same battery setup in my 2000 Allure you have except I

did

Quote
not have the Link 1000 control. The Allure only had a remote

ON/OFF

Quote
switch in the panel above the door to control the Freedom 20 > inverter. My two 8D house batteries were the original Les Schwab > batteries installed by Country Coach. The manufactured date on the > batteries were 12-99. Of the two one had a totally dead cell and

the

Quote
other had a marginal cell when checked with a hydrometer. I had

both

Quote
the batteries load tested that confirmed my findings. The engine > battery is also an 8D, but maintains a good charge and all specific > gravity reading are normal for all cells. The two house batteries > were labeled deep cycle. However, I question that they were since > they were no heavier than the engine battery. Deep cycle batteries > have more lead plate surfaces, thus making the batteries noticably > heavier.

The primary cause for a dead or weak cell in a wet lead-acid

battery

Quote
is improper maintenance. A dry cell and/or sulfating of the plates > are the culprits usually. Batteries begin to act funny when they > begin to go dead. Usually you notice that the charge seems to not > last as long but yet the battery seems to accept a charge.

However,

Quote
the charging time begins to take a shorter and shorter time

period.

Quote
This is one of the first indications of a cell going bad due to a > sulfate buildup. The only way to hedge this is to do equalization > periodicaly. Many say that 2-3 time a year is sufficient.
However, the frequency actually depends on the number of cycles of > discharge and charge the batteries go through. If you are an > occasional dry camper or inverter user, then a couple time per year > would suffice. However, if you are doing more dry camping and > inverter use than anything else, then 3-4 times per year may be > needed. Deep cycle batteries are only going to last just so many > cycles of discharge and charge. Many of the battery manufacturers > will provide that kind of cycle specification one can expect to get > from a deep cycle. Some will not.

After taking a careful look at my Freedom 20 system, I discovered > that there was no way to equalize my batteries. I felt that it

would

Quote
be foolish to install new batteries unless I could properly

maintain

Quote
them. The Freedom 20 has a three level charge function as well as > the capability to equalize the batteries. However, with only the > remote ON/OFF switch you cannot access that function in my Allure.

I

Quote
called Country Coach and discovered that the only way was to

install

Quote
a Freedom Remote Control Panel. The installation was simple since

it

Quote
used the same RJ45 control cable already in place for the ON/OFF > switch. I took the monitor panel above the door down, unplugged

the

Quote
ON/OFF switch and plugged the RJ-45 cable into the new control

panel

Quote
I had mounted in a shadow box just above the monitor panel. Worked > like a champ.

With the new control panel installed, I figured I would see what I > could do to try to salvage some additional use out of the 8D house > batteries. So, I charged the batteries until they indicated full > charge. I then initialized the equalization process. When

finished

Quote
about 8 hours later, I checked the batteries with a hydrometer.
Nothing changed. Still had one battery with a bad cell and the

other

Quote
with a marginal cell. So, next step was to find some batteries.

I began looking for the best ampere-hour and cycle ratings. I > quickly discovered that most deep cycles are not warranteed for

more

Quote
than 12-18 months max. Also, unless I wanted to pay $300-400 for a > Rolls 8D deep cycle battery, I was not ging to find the maximum > capacity. I considered AGM and other sealed batteries. But then I > remembered why I do not like them from my experiences with them in > other vehicles. Like the Die Hard, when they die, they die hard.

At

Quote
least with the wet cell you can check and see when a battery is

about

Quote
to go bad before it does. I don't mind the routine of periodically > checking the batteries. Having spent the past 37 years working in > aviation for the USN, I am somewhat accustomed to the scheduled > maintenance routine.

I then looked at the Trojan golf cart batteries. The T-105, T-125 > and T-145 all offered the same amp-hour or greater capacity than

the

Quote
8D's when paired together for a 12-volt bank. The Trojan batteries > also offered a better cycle rating and warranty. The warranty is > total replacement first 12 months and prorated from there through

36

Quote
months. The foot print of the Trojan batteries I was considering > were all the same and took up less area than the 8D's. The

Trojan's

Quote
were a bit taller, but my battery compartment could handle the > heighth with no problem.
> Bottom line....I installed four T-145 Trojan's, built a storage box > for my hydrometer to go in the space remaining in the battery tray > and fabricated a 2x2 aluminum brace to keep everything in place. I > did this about three weeks ago and so far everything seem to work

as

Quote
it should. The real test will be this coming week when we travel

to

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3699
Jim

I also have a 2000 Allure with batteries that are going bad. I am interested in the 6 volt golf cart batteries. If you are able, I would appreciate a picture and more information on modifications you had to make to the Battery compartment for the 4 golf cart batteries. Also are any changes to the Heart 2000 charger/inverter or electrical system required. Thanks for any information you can provide.

Dick

2000 Allure 9592

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3700
I have a '99 Allure in which I installed 6 Trojan T105 batteries a year ago. They are positioned in 2 rows, 3 across. The front row had to be raised slightly with a piece of wood for it to fit in the 8D space. I cut out part of the front of the fiberglass battery pan and fastened an aluminum angle across the front to hold them in place. There is adequate steel bracing under the fiberglass to support the battery weight. The T105's give me about 660 amp hours and in the past year we have regularly used up to 300-350 amp hours between charges while dry camping. The batteries still recharge back to their original capacity. The 2 sets of 8D's I had before this were both useless in less than 18 months each. This setup required creation of some cabling to get the proper linkage between batteries.

Marv Allure 30336

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3755
Ray

No additional support needed. The 8D's were sitting in a hard rubber tray on top of expanded metal grate with the metal supports underneath that.

Jim 2000 Allure #30511

Quote from: travman100\[br\
"]

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3757
Dick

Sorry it took so long to reply. Just got back from the Snowbird rally and the Tampa Super Show Rally. Great time.

Take a look at my folder (KC4FWS) in the photos section. It will give you an idea of what I did and how I positioned the batteries in place.

During the Snowbird Rally, I had one of the Les Schawb guys and the Exide battery rep take a look at the one remaining 8D I kept (shown in the photos) to see if the would pass a load test. As I had suspected it failed. Each time I started the engine, it seemed to struggle to turn the engine over even though the battery checked ok using the hydrometer on each cell. So, I had it replaced with another 8D.

Notice the tray the batteries are sitting in. To keep the batteries from sliding, I built a brace from some 2x2 inch vertical support for a screen enclosure I found at Lowes. Cut a couple of clips and fastened one end with rivets and the other with screws. The 8D battery flange where the handle is attached to and the compartment structure keeps the brace in place. I then constructed a wooden box with a lid to fill the space between the Trojan batteries and the brace. I keep my hydrometer and a few pints of distilled water in it.

The Heart inverter requires no changes as long as you stay with a battery that is not sealed. I do recommend that if you only have the ON/OFF switch on your monitor/control panel above your entry door, that you get the Freedom Remote Control Panel and install it. Look at the photo in my folder. All you do is open your monitor panel and disconnect the RJ45 plug that is currently plugged into your ON/OFF switch and plug it into the Freedom Remote Control Panel. You can see in my photo that I used some red oak and fabricated a shadow box to mount the new panel just above the existing one. A little filing of the wood to allow the cable to be snaked to it worked great. The red oak after sanding and two coats of clear spray laquer match the interior great. Make sure the cabinet door forward of it will open without hitting it.

Good luck.....

Jim Hughes

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

Quote from: RBellaw\[br\
"]
Jim

I also have a 2000 Allure with batteries that are going bad. I am
interested in the 6 volt golf cart batteries. If you are able, I would appreciate a picture and more information on modifications you had to make to the Battery compartment for the 4 golf cart batteries.
Also are any changes to the Heart 2000 charger/inverter or electrical system required. Thanks for any information you can provide.

Quote
Dick

2000 Allure 9592

> Jim,
>

> Did you have to put any support under the golf cart batteries. I > > believe the 8Ds get their support at each end because they sit on

a

Quote
major piece of the frame there. Golf batteries aren't long enough

to

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3758
Marv

How about posting a couple of photos to your installation. I was thinking of doing the same and add three pairs, but decided not to cut anything and stayed with just the two pairs. The two T-145 pairs gives me more amp capacity than I had with the 8D's.

Jim Hughes

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3761
Jim,

Your installation of the Freedom Remote Control looks great. You said you did some filing to snake the wire.
Did you cut a hole behind your shadow box to run this wire through or where exactly did you do this filing? I can't tell from the picture (you did a good job).
Shadow box is a great idea.
Thanks, Ed

Quote
ON/OFF switch on your monitor/control panel above > your entry door,

that you get the Freedom Remote Control Panel and > > A little filing

of the wood to allow the cable to be snaked to it > worked great. >
Good luck.....

Jim Hughes

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

> -

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3763
I filed a slanted slot just behind the existing panel and then a straight slot on the back face of the shadow box. If you were to remove the shadow box the RJ45 cabl would be coming out from under the edge of the existing panel. The slots are not noticeable and can be easily filled with a furniture stick of similar color. The shadow box is mounted with two screws that are counterbored into the edge and screwed into the wall which is 3/4-1" thick in that area. I think I used #6 screws.
Jim

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3775
Jim,

Looks like a great setup! Good job on the layout and I really like the bonus of a box to store some goodies.

I have the Trace inverter with the "good" remote panel that handless the programming, generator auto-start and equalization. I did have the Heart in my last coach and ended up installing a remote panel to replace the on/off switch. In that coach the switch (and wiring) was in the kitchen in one of the lower cabinets. This made installation very easy and I flush mounted the panel.

Thanks for the update. I'm still struggling with my battery headaches. Maybe one of these days I'll resolve it.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3820
Jim,

Thanks, I have just had 6 golf cart batteries, Trojan 105s, installed in place of the 2 8Ds, used them overnight the first night they were installed and what a difference in capacity!! The batteries lost very little of their charge after running TV and the hydronic heater to take the chill off. I also had two 120 watt solar panels installed, a Trace TM500A Battery Status Monitor and an RV Products model 2000E Solar Boost charge controller for the solar panels. I can now see more about my batteries condition than I imagined was possible. I can see exactly how many amps are being drained or how many amps charging. I can see remaining amphours and battery voltage. With this I should be able to keep my batteries from running down into battery destruction phase. I can also do an equalization of the batteries with the 2000E. I decided that I didn't need to add the remote to the freedom so I'm still using the on/off switch provided by CC. I had the TM500A and the 2000E mounted using the space on the TV cabinet in the bedroom. Lots of room there and close to batteries so not a long way to run cables. Solar panels are mounted directly above that area.

Now, next problem is to try and solve the dust storm issue and the black smoke. I now also have a coolant leak which I am tying to isolate, think it might be a hose clamp. Possibly where the hydronic heater hoses connect up to the "Y" connector in the engine compartment.

Thinking about the dust storm issue makes me a bit angry at CC engineers. A 96 Foretravel was parked next to me in the Solar Vendor parking lot at Quartsite, I paid careful attention to him as he started up the engine and roared away....not one bit of dust was moved from the parking lot....contrast that with when I started up. I clicked the idle switch down to lowest rpm level, never touched the accelerator but rather tried to pull out at slowest possible speed to avoid filling the area with dust....not gonna happen...my coach was blowing dust over everything and everyone is the vicinity. I had prewarned them but don't think they expected it would be as bad as it was. I think this is one problem which CC needs to solve...many onlookers see this happening and I'm just imagining what is going through their consumer oriented little minds. And, I doubt very seriously that the thoughts about CC is very positive. I would imagine it would go more like "I would not want to own something that causes that much trouble." I think this problem will eventually be solved but it has taken me far too much effort to try to get it resolved...I will continue to work the problem and hope some day to be able to drive anywhere...as did the foretravel...and not create such a stir!! Of dust, I mean.

But, at least now that I have gotten rid of those 8D engine batteries (I mean deep cycle batteries ;-)) I think I will be much happier with that aspect of the coach.
Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

Quote from: Jim Hughes\[br\
"]
Ray

No additional support needed. The 8D's were sitting in a hard

rubber

Quote
tray on top of expanded metal grate with the metal supports > underneath that.

Jim 2000 Allure #30511

[quote author=travman100

> Jim,
>

> Did you have to put any support under the golf cart batteries. I > > believe the 8Ds get their support at each end because they sit on

a

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3850
Jim, can you tell me where you had the installation done? Always good info to have and nice to have a mech that has done the job once.

tks

John Bicknas 97 Magna 5416
 

Re: One plug-in Electrical Circuit - Deep Cycle Batteries

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3860
Purchased the batteries from Battery Depot's warehouse here in Jacksonville. They will test and install as well, but I took my old one to them for testing, purchased the Trojans and installed them myself using a couple of additional jumper cables to make the two 12vdc banks.

Jim Hughes

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511