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Better Information on Tire Age

Yahoo Message Number: 79560
I just came across this excerpt from two Tire Rack articles I read that suggests we may be overacting to the 5 year replacement rule going around. How our tires are cared for, protected and used has more to due with their service life than the date code. Tire Rack is certainly in the business of selling tires, but with stong references they present a case for longer tire life than any of the tires dealers I have talked to recently. My question is, how may still good tire casings prematurely stuff our landfills due to tire dealer enthusiam? Here is the excerpt followed by links to the actual articles if you are interested.
__

The current industry association recommendations regarding inspecting and replacing tires due to age originate outside the United States.
The British Rubber Manufacturers Association (BRMA) recommended practice issued June, 2001, states "BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over six years old and that all tyres should be replaced ten years from the date of their manufacture." __

Tire Aging - Part 1: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=138
Tire Aging - Part 2: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=183

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79563
One can see Tire Rack coming from there own view point. What I have read, backed up by experience is tire belt failure, not rubber failure. The articles I remember reading talked about dampness getting into the tire causing the steel belts to rust. The steel belts are not coated in anyway to protect them from rusting. As the steel belts rust they work against each other and the rust weaklings them eventually leading to steel belt failure and tire failure. Even when a tire sets on concrete moisture rises into the tire. A nonporous barrier is recommended between the tire and what ever it rest on.

Water intrusion is not a big factor for tires driven regular as running keeps the tires/steel belts dry on the inside. The tires most affected are those who set most of the time. RV tires of all kinds, trailers, motorhomes, 5th wheels etc.. My experience of tire failure shows belt failure first. The tire starts to bulge in the middle of the tread all around the tire. If not caught and removed, they will blow out. Running heat does not seem to be a factor as the tires are not hot while running.

Many stories of tire failure on a motorhome causing huge $$$$$ to coach all the way to death for loss of control. Tires are cheap insurance. One blow out and damage result will buy lots and lots of tires.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79569
Stuart If you read carefully on Part 2 it , in fact , confirms, that seldom used, heavily loaded, stored outdoors, sunny and hot climates tires, have the shortest calendar lifespans. This is what our coaches are subjected to! Part 1 indicates a maximum calendar lifespan of 10 years. As a result on the above, the 5 to 7 year span for coaches like ours is , in fact, confirmed by the article. I posted a bit earlier about the oils in the tires, and this somewhat confirms that. The friend of mine who uses his coach monthly got 8 years and the article agrees with that assessment .
Please post your year model and serial number Thanks

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79585
After selling millions of tire over my 45 plus years in the tire industry I could not have said this better than the article and statement by Tire Rack.
In my entire career I don't ever recall a tire failure due to age (I handled thousands of "adjustments" & vast majority were due to low air pressure).
Despite my own experience, I'm sure there were some. It is my belief that in order to address the many who don't pay attention to their tires, the manufactures are trying to protect themselves by the age limitation.
If any RV'er feels better by replacing based upon the 5 year warranty - it is their money.
Jim Kelso

95 Affinity 5395 03 Honda CRV

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79587
Thanks for that Information Jim,

I have been buying tires from the same Company for many years, Father and Son, Now the Son(in his 60') runs the place, he tells me not to worry about the age of my tires, about (6yrs now), he would let me know when they need to be replaced, with no visible crack or damage, he said not to worry., his family has been doing tires since I was a small boy, many years ago.
Marvin, 07 Allure, #31459

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79591
Sorry about the lack of the signature Ron. It is so easy to forget. And I agree that if you do experience all the environmental issues you mention, 5 -7 makes sense. I also think Jim's and Marvin's assessment is valid as well. Not all tires experience the same conditions, and there is valid justification to get longer life out of our tires. We don't take many long trips, but we do take shorter trips, 100-300 miles a lot and when not traveling, it is always stored indoors on an epoxy coated concrete surface. It would give me heart failure to replace these tires using the 5 ? 7 year guideline. They are in excellent condition. The Tire Rack article gives me confidence that there are variables in judging replacement time based on the environmental and maintenance conditions our tires are exposed to, not just the date code.

Stuart Thornton, 2005 Allure, #31217

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79595
More reading:

http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/tire-replacement-guidelines.aspx
http://www.rvknowhow.com/articles/tire.html
http://rvtechtips.blogspot.com/2011/12/what-to-look-for-in-rv-tires-age.html
http://www.rubberoptions.com/pdf/009.pdf
http://cdrb-law.com/legal-articles/Tire-Tread-Separation-2-Theories-of-Liability.pdf
Lots of information when one does a Google search. Lots of different views. Just depends on what one is willing to gamble as to when to change tires. Personal experience shows it is cheaper to be on the cautions side then to try to set records for longest tire life, that thinking can take lives. Just note the RV wrecks and note the cause is usually "blow tires" and to many times lives are lost.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79610
For purposes of discussion, I am hard pressed to believe that moisture can migrate up into the steel belts. The rubber on the outside can not pass the moisture through to the belts. Pools and all sorts of other devices are lined with rubber and do not pass moisture through , unless there is some sort of leak. The rubber on a tire is at least 1/4 inch thick at it's weakest place. Water , just can't get through that. I will believe that once you get cracks in the rubber , that moisture can get through. Water does not flow uphill. If the cracks allow water into the steel belt area, then the tire will have water in it and when the wheel stops the water will migrate down, and therefore into the belt area. Being parked for a long time allows that belt , once it sees the water, to rust. It is therefore , IMHO, necessary to stop the cracks from starting. This comes from lack of use ! As I said previously, tires that are not used , do not allow the oils in the tire to be dispersed, and therefore , cracking occurs. The articles listed do not talk about this. Truck tires put on thousands of miles, are retreaded, and put on more , thousands of miles without issue. If someone talked to a person who was involved with the retread business, they would cover the criteria they use. I suspect , strongly , that the tires retreaded do NOT have cracks in the casing. It is just not possible for water /moisture to flow uphill.

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79619
Ron, read some of the information in my other post on more reading. Rubber is porous to air and water. Inner tubes was the early answer to keeping air in a tire. Now they have special lining on the inside of the tire, the most expensive part of the tire, to keep the air in. Water seeps into rubber the tires are made with. Lots different kinds of "rubber". Water and rust become an issue when tires set for long periods of time. Regular running build heat which drives out the water. Setting/non-use is the enemy for rusting the belts. Some tire company are now treating the belts to help stop the rusting.

Trucks can get away with a lot because they are on the go all the time and they can run the lesser tires on less critical locations. We do not have that option with our coaches. One tire blowing out on a trailer axle will not bring the whole truck to a wreck in the ditch as it will our coaches.

Leonard 97' Magna 5418

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79623
Leonard The inner tube is made of rubber and the pressure inside is 100 PSI and zero outside the liner 1/8 inch away , as you are measuring gauge pressure . The may be some very small air migration due to pressure differential. The current liners are the same as the inner tube , in terms of effect. You alluded to the moisture coming up through the concrete and I would disagree that this happens. A tire while not moving only has about 5 % of it's road surface area touching the concrete. I submit to you that in Oregon , where it is 100% humidity in the air for a big portion of the year, the remainder of the tire is seeing more " moisture " than the floor where you park. I am disputing that the moisture some how comes up through the floor , and that that is what causes the steel belts to rust. If there is porosity in the rubber of the tire is as great as you say, the impact load on the rubber from water on the road at 60 MPH, would be able to push the moisture through the same pores. I am not sure how you can say that the moisture that causes the steel to rust comes from the small patch you park on. You also move the coach and come back to park on a different 5% of the tire. We may have to agree to disagree. The cracks in the outer rubber are significant as to where any moisture might get in. I submit that the oils in the rubber get dispersed under regular use. When parked , these oils , are subject to gravity, and don't get dispersed. The cracks in the rubber on my old coach were all near the bead, and not at the road side. Once the moisture gets in it also is subject to gravity and gets around the whole tire, causing the rusting , of which you speak.

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79626
My tires had no 'visible' cracks either when the LR inside disintegrated at 6.5 years and tore up the left rear quarter.
You can't see the inside of the tire. Cracks are not the only damage a tire suffers. Heat is a big contributor to tire failure.

Dave

aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79628
Ron, I'm not making this up and I'm not the expert. Do your own research on the Internet. Use Google and you will find this being discussed by the experts. Moisture goes both ways through concrete. If the concrete has the correct barrier under it that stops moisture from coming up from the ground, then it is not the problem. When they pour building slabs on the ground, they have to have the vapor barrier to stop moisture from coming up into the structure. Again, i'm not the expert, only sharing what I have learned by doing my own research.

We were in S. Cal recently, parked on a slab. Every morning would wake up to a wet slab from the nightly watering. This is not just a Oregon problem. You really can't argue with me as this in not a personnel thing to me. But it is a fact our tires live with and just one of those many variables that make our tires have a limited life span due to time more then milage. Again, experience has shown on our trailer, that it is time not tread depth. It is belts failing first causing blowout right though the belts.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79647
After reading all these Post and Explanations about the age of tires, I have One Question: If your(that means anyone) Tires are unsafe after said #of years, why do you try to sell them back to the Dealer for Use on Someone Else's Vehicle? You may meet that same Truck on the Road Yourself. Just a Thought..
Marvin, 07 Allure, #31459

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79648
Because a truck can run them in less critical locations. Truck tires blow out all the time. The remains are on the highway often, without any wreck or damage to the truck or trailer. They simple have much more room underneath for the blown tire to escape without taking out a expensive fiberglass sides or expensive radiator or after cooler or going into the passenger compartment or wrecking the truck. The front tires are highly regulated as to what a truck can run, not so the rest. Another factor, the truckers who buy them are most often local with local runs and are not likely to make a run across country and get in 100 degree heat like a RV coach. For the truckers, our old tires are a good deal and for us as well as we can rest assured the tires are being re-cycled, so to speak, and getting maximum use.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79649
Bye the way, I do see trucks with a front tire blowout on occasion, they are wrecked. Easy to see the problem by the tracks left on the pavement. Black streaks followed by rim grooves in the pavement along with the tire pieces scattered before the wreck. Just depends on which side blows as to which way it goes and how much other damage it creates. That is the reason for the regulations on what they can run up front.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79650
Quote
Quote from: marvin2mytime"
Marvin,

That is a reasonable question. At home in Las Cruces I get about $100 per tire from onion haulers. They work in the onion fields collecting the crop, drive about 6-10 miles to the market maker and unload. They sure don't need seven hundred dollar tires.
Lyle Wetherholt
04 Intrigue 11740
> After reading all these Post and Explanations about the age of tires, I have One Question: > If your(that means anyone) Tires are unsafe after said #of years, why do you try to sell them back to the Dealer for Use on Someone Else's Vehicle? You may meet that same Truck on the Road Yourself. Just a Thought..
Marvin, 07 Allure, #31459

Quote from: Leonard Kerns

>

> More reading:
>

>http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/tire-replacement-guidelines.aspx > >

>http://www.rvknowhow.com/articles/tire.html > >

>http://rvtechtips.blogspot.com/2011/12/what-to-look-for-in-rv-tires-age.html > >

>http://www.rubberoptions.com/pdf/009.pdf > >

>http://cdrb-law.com/legal-articles/Tire-Tread-Separation-2-Theories-of-Liability.pdf > >

> Lots of information when one does a Google search. Lots of different views. Just depends on what one is willing to gamble as to when to change tires. Personal experience shows it is cheaper to be on the cautions side then to try to set records for longest tire life, that thinking can take lives. Just note the RV wrecks and note the cause is usually "blow tires" and to many times lives are lost.
>

> Leonard

> 97' Magna 5418
>
>
>

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79668
Around here they may Sell them to a Log Trucker or Dump Trucker, both or either already has a Record for being a Hazard on the Road, now we have to worry about some used Tires from an RV.. That is what I was told by a Long Time Tire Dealer. Just my Opinion..
Marvin, 07 Allure #31459

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79673
I suspect those tire users seldom age out a tire.
Sidewall cuts are very common in their type of operating terrain so a new tire would likely last no longer than a used tire mounted on the rear axles of their rigs.
I also suspect those tire users have to mount new tires on the steer axle, so pose no greater threat to others because of their used tire purchases.

Dean

95 Magna 5280
 

Re: Better Information on Tire Age

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 79726
Just a Foot note, Last Week here in Yuma AZ. I took our rig to Percell and orderd four new Goodyear G-169's. Turns out the tires were dated almost two years old. I stopped the Job. The Mgr. said the warranty starts the day you buy the tires! I said no way would I ever think of putting old tires on your coach! I will have tires put on at Les Schwab as I have a sister living in Harrisburg Oregon and been by that store many times. Next time I will get the Quote frish tires less then two momths old! They lied to me and they lost me as a cust. My two cents, Ken. 99 Allure 30356.