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Residential Refrigerators

Yahoo Message Number: 89864
Trying to make a decision. My 2007 CC Tribute 260 has a Norcold 1210M refrigerator that is beginning to show its age. All fire recalls have been installed. Do not yet have a halon fire extinguisher but will soon if I don't go to a residential unit. Cost to put in a Samsung 197 including cabinetry and a new pure sign wave Magnum inverter is approximately $4K (Presently, I have a Magnum MSW). A new Amish cooling unit installed by JC Refrigeration in Shipshewana, IN will be about $1325 + $125 for a Halon Fire Extingusiher.....
Please help me decide.....I rarely boondock....I am told I will not need more house battery power (I already have 4 deep cycle Golf Cart batteries) because the Samsung will only pull 1 AMP compared to the 4 AMPs the Norcold is already pulling.
Will a residential fridge add value to my coach when I get really old and decide to sell?

Decision....Decision....What should I do? Thanks All....

D Jean
CC #82170

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89867
I put in the Samsung in my 05 Inspire. Sure didn't hurt the resale (since moved up to 08 Intrigue) and you do not need pure sign wave inverter, the Zantrex original worked well.

John

08 Intrigue
10 Ford Escape

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89869
D:

Price (now less as you do not need a new inverter) is not the only factor to consider.

The Samsung is larger, taller, colder, and safer.

D Vogel

PS. If the extinguisher goes off, the unit is already on fire....

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89870
We have had the Samsung in our coach for almost 3 years now and keep wondering why we didn't do it sooner. Biggest benefit is really cold food from the fridge and the frozen food is solid. Plus, there is the peace of mind factor. Our install was less than $4,000 including the cost of the fridge. We already had the Magnum pure sine wave installed because the Xantrex had failed a couple of years earlier.

S Brandt, '06 Intrigue, #11964

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89877
If the residential refrigerators are so efficient why did CC add two additional 8D batteries to these coaches. Just seems curious that my coach with the Norcold came with 2 8D,s but with the residential refrigerator option it came with four.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89878
As far as electrical usage, the RV refrigerator will use far less electricity. The RV refrigerator has a simple heating element, a residential refrigerator has a compressor that uses far more power, thus the extra two batteries. Of course, the residential refrigerator cools food down much quicker.

Per

95 Affinity

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89879
We stayed with the Norcold. It isn't the best refrigeration option regarding features but has worked well for us. 12 Cu/Ft is more space than we ever use. The two cartridge heaters on the boiler draw 225 watts each for a total of 450 watts. That resistive load on 120 VAC draws 3.75 amps. There is also a mold heater on the ice maker which I recall draws around 130 watts. Not sure of the exact wattage on the mold heater. Someone jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong. Keep in mind the boiler heaters are controlled via a PWM circuit. This means they aren't always at full power but throttled based on cooling demand.
What the frig draws depends on its cycle, thermostat setting, outside temps, defrost cycle, etc. So the 4 amps that everyone quotes is a worst case scenario and misleading. The average power drawn in 24 hours is the number you need. This isn't an easy value to measure. And I can assure you it isn't anywhere near a constant 450 watts.
The JC Refrigeration GACU works fine. I've installed two of these and the article link is below on that:
http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68#Post68
Pines RV Refrigeration also stands behind their products. Their service and support are impeccable. This goes a long way with me. Try to get this from some large corporation whose interested is in boning its customers.

Regarding installing a residential frig, we didn't want to loose the drawers under the frig or have an awkward reach into the upper frig areas. Also the door fronts on the Norcold match the wood in the bus.
And there are a host of other issues we just didn't want to deal with.
All these are resolvable but within personal tastes and specific implementations. There are too many "modifications" and implied compromises we're just not comfortable with. And the $4K+ sticker shock on top of a $3.8K price tag for the Norcold is a bit much. $7.8k for a frig, YIKES!! Also residential frigs aren't warrantied for RV service.
Too early to say whether this is going to be a problem. My guess is it won't be. So we deal with a small amount of uncertainty along the way.

Our Norcold doesn't have the ice maker and we don't use the propane feature either. I've also successfully used inverter power to run the Norcold during travel. This encompasses about 20 hours of testing. Our Magnum inverter is a pure sine wave unit. The article on this is here: http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148#Post148 In some buses adding a circuit might be as easy as replacing a breaker in the sub-panel with a 1/2 wide breaker and moving a wire. In other cases it may be more complex to stay within code. Your call on how best to handle the wiring should you explore this option at all. My article simply proves that the Norcold runs fine on inverter power. The impetus for this was to avoid using propane while traveling. And some buses use rubber (gas grill) hose to provide the propane into the frig compartment. This is an OUTRAGE!! Much more work beyond recall band aids needs to be done on the GACU frigs. With a good quality GACU and attentive operation, a safe frig option can be had for considerably less bread than a full on conversion to a residential unit. Pick what works best for you and provides the comfort levels you require.
The good news is there are options. Each has its own set of pros/cons to be evaluated on an individual basis. I've been very outspoken about Norcold's irresponsible approach and design. And you'll wait a good long time to get someone on the phone too. But I still endorse properly designed and installed GACUs as a safe refrigeration option for mobile travelers. The Amish have been using these in their homes for decades.
I believe they heat them with kerosene. Good luck.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89882
Well it all stems back to WHEN household refrigerators weren't efficient, or as efficient as they are today. 15 -20 years ago we (converters) did all kinds of tricks to use less power, such as get into the defrost cycle wiring and add a switch so we could control when/if the refer went into defrost. No need to defrost and use up that energy when dry camping. Also we didn't have efficient inverters, or as efficient as todays.

Crazy things we did back in the day.....

How things have changed!

Ohh - batteries, they've gotten much better and cheaper to....

Jim

From:totenard Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:02 AM To:Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Residential Refrigerators

As far as electrical usage, the RV refrigerator will use far less electricity. The RV refrigerator has a simple heating element, a residential refrigerator has a compressor that uses far more power, thus the extra two batteries. Of course, the residential refrigerator cools food down much quicker.

Per

95 Affinity

Quote from: "Dan Fahrion"
If the residential
refrigerators are so efficient why did CC add two

Quote
additional 8D
batteries to these coaches. Just seems curious that my coach

Quote
with the
Norcold came with 2 8D,s but with the residential refrigerator

Quote
option it

came with four.

Quote
>

Dan 2006 Allure 31348 C-9

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89883
Has anyone installed a residential refrigerator in a 40' 2005+ Intrigue. Curious due to the narrow hallway.

Coriwelsh

12314 Intrigue

From: Scott

To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Residential Refrigerators

We stayed with the Norcold. It isn't the best refrigeration option regarding features but has worked well for us. 12 Cu/Ft is more space than we ever use. The two cartridge heaters on the boiler draw 225 watts each for a total of 450 watts. That resistive load on 120 VAC draws 3.75 amps. There is also a mold heater on the ice maker which I recall draws around 130 watts. Not sure of the exact wattage on the mold heater. Someone jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong. Keep in mind the boiler heaters are controlled via a PWM circuit. This means they aren't always at full power but throttled based on cooling demand.
What the frig draws depends on its cycle, thermostat setting, outside temps, defrost cycle, etc. So the 4 amps that everyone quotes is a worst case scenario and misleading. The average power drawn in 24 hours is the number you need. This isn't an easy value to measure. And I can assure you it isn't anywhere near a constant 450 watts.
The JC Refrigeration GACU works fine. I've installed two of these and the article link is below on that:
http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68#Post68
Pines RV Refrigeration also stands behind their products. Their service and support are impeccable. This goes a long way with me. Try to get this from some large corporation whose interested is in boning its customers.

Regarding installing a residential frig, we didn't want to loose the drawers under the frig or have an awkward reach into the upper frig areas. Also the door fronts on the Norcold match the wood in the bus.
And there are a host of other issues we just didn't want to deal with.
All these are resolvable but within personal tastes and specific implementations. There are too many "modifications" and implied compromises we're just not comfortable with. And the $4K+ sticker shock on top of a $3.8K price tag for the Norcold is a bit much. $7.8k for a frig, YIKES!! Also residential frigs aren't warrantied for RV service.
Too early to say whether this is going to be a problem. My guess is it won't be. So we deal with a small amount of uncertainty along the way.

Our Norcold doesn't have the ice maker and we don't use the propane feature either. I've also successfully used inverter power to run the Norcold during travel. This encompasses about 20 hours of testing. Our Magnum inverter is a pure sine wave unit. The article on this is here: http://www.muniac.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148#Post148 In some buses adding a circuit might be as easy as replacing a breaker in the sub-panel with a 1/2 wide breaker and moving a wire. In other cases it may be more complex to stay within code. Your call on how best to handle the wiring should you explore this option at all. My article simply proves that the Norcold runs fine on inverter power. The impetus for this was to avoid using propane while traveling. And some buses use rubber (gas grill) hose to provide the propane into the frig compartment. This is an OUTRAGE!! Much more work beyond recall band aids needs to be done on the GACU frigs. With a good quality GACU and attentive operation, a safe frig option can be had for considerably less bread than a full on conversion to a residential unit. Pick what works best for you and provides the comfort levels you require.
The good news is there are options. Each has its own set of pros/cons to be evaluated on an individual basis. I've been very outspoken about Norcold's irresponsible approach and design. And you'll wait a good long time to get someone on the phone too. But I still endorse properly designed and installed GACUs as a safe refrigeration option for mobile travelers. The Amish have been using these in their homes for decades.
I believe they heat them with kerosene. Good luck.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89884
Our '06 Intrigue is a 40' and has the narrow hallway. We have no problem with our Samsung. We are able to access even with the slides closed.

S. Brandt, '06 Intrigue, #11964

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89885
As a followup to what Scott said, you really need to have more information to know if the Samsung residential refrigerator is more efficient than the Norcold RV model. The Samsung may only draw 1 amp and the Norcold heaters may draw 4 amps, but this is only when they are actually running, which as Scott says, is not continuous (probably not even close to continous).
Has someone actually put an amprobe on the Samsung to see what it draws in actually use? I would be very curious to know. The government energy guide on the Samsung RF197AC lists an annual consumption of 445kwh. (I always take these guides with a grain of salt, but it is sometime and all we have to go on right now)
So the 445kwh breaks down this way. 1kwh is 1000 watts draw for one hour, so they are saying the Samsung will draw 445,000 watts over the course of an entire year. If it does draw 1 amp like was mentioned, then that is 120 watts (A x V = W)

So 445,000/120=3708 hours of running time per year.
A year has 8760 hours, so they are saying it will run 42% of the time or 10.15 hours per day (@ 1 amp draw). That probably seems about right to me.
You could plug this 10 hours @ 1 amp into a RV Battery calculator like this: http://www.boundlessoutfitters.com/Battery-Load-Calculator-s/129.htm along with your other devices and see if your batteries would work.
On the Norcold, if you compare the 4 amp draw that Scott mentioned to the Samsung, it would have to run 25% less time to be of equal efficiency, or only 2.5 hours a day. This seems awfully low, but I am not sure how often the heaters need to be on to initiate and maintain the ammonia gas cooling. If there wasn't the safety aspect with the Norcold and propane, using propane would be a better choice I think.
The only absolute way to know all of this for sure whould be to plug each refrigerator into a kill-a-watt and see what the actual consumption is for a given period (24 hours minimum). It will tell you the immediate load and accumulate that like your electrical meter does.
My gut feel is that the Samsung wouldn't use any more than the Norcold on electricity, and probably a fair amount less.

Dan

2006 Allure with tag
#31344

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89886
Tha placard on our Samsung claims 3.9 amps max draw.
Be that as it may we have important things to do at night, like sleep, not worrying whether the Nevercold is going to burn up or blow up!

Jim 07 Allure #31570

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89890
I'd do it. Also, according to many others who installed the RF197, it runs fine on MSW so you might not need to replace the inverter.
We swapped the Norcrap on our previous coach for a Frigidaire 18.cu residential but I did install a new PSW inverter. We loved the unit and would never go back to an absorption unit. If you don't boondock much and have auto gen start, you will be fine. You don't need an AGS but it sure makes it simple....monitors battery voltage and starts genny when voltage drops to a level you set.

Gary

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89891
I've posted my experiance with our Samsung install. The Samsung uses far less electricity than the Norcold running on AC and is 50% larger inside. Just a fact.
If you don't want to install a residential fridge that's certainly your choice but you shouldn't be passing on bad information because of it.

The Samsung is a better refridgerator in every way. Another fact.
http://www.moenracing.com/samsung/
Barney

07 Inspire 52059

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89918
We installed a Samsung 197 in our 06 40' Intrigue. The hallway is no problem. We had it installed by Fountain RV in Lakeland FL. Great job.
David White

06 Intrigue 11993

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89927
2004 40' Intrigue w/ Tan CC Serial # 11826

Does anyone know it the Samsung 197 will go through the front door

with the doors off the fridge ?

Thanks

Bill

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89930
Quote
Quote from: Bill"
Bill,

I had to take mine through the front windshield hole. It's no big deal to have a glass shop remove and replace the windshield. The Norcold went out the same way.
Lyle Wetherholt
04 Intrigue 11740

2004 40' Intrigue w/ Tan CC Serial # 11826 > > Does anyone know it the Samsung 197 will go through the front door >

with the doors off the fridge ?

Thanks

Bill

Quote from: dljean50"

>

> Trying to make a decision. My 2007 CC Tribute 260 has a Norcold 1210M refrigerator that is beginning to show its age. All fire recalls have been installed. Do not yet have a halon fire extinguisher but will soon if I don't go to a residential unit. Cost to put in a Samsung 197 including cabinetry and a new pure sign wave Magnum inverter is approximately $4K (Presently, I have a Magnum MSW). A new Amish cooling unit installed by JC Refrigeration in Shipshewana, IN will be about $1325 + $125 for a Halon Fire Extingusiher.....
>

> Please help me decide.....I rarely boondock....I am told I will not need more house battery power (I already have 4 deep cycle Golf Cart batteries) because the Samsung will only pull 1 AMP compared to the 4 AMPs the Norcold is already pulling.
>

> Will a residential fridge add value to my coach when I get really old and decide to sell? > >

> Decision....Decision....What should I do? Thanks All....
>

> D Jean
> CC #82170
>

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89935
Probably not. Fountain RV removed the drivers side window and the drivers seat and moved the fridge in through the opening.
David White

06 Intrigue 11993

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89937
It went through my door with the refrig doors off. I did remove the bolts from the passenger seat, and moved the seat to the side.

Tom

2005 Inspire 51177
 

Re: Residential Refrigerators

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 89940
Exact same experience for us when removing the Norcold and bringing in the Samsung.

Mary and Mike Frederick
06 Inspire 51784