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PAC Brake

Yahoo Message Number: 299
The PAC brake issue is a serious problem and does appear to be a combination of electronic control and frozen hardware. As delivered (from Lazy Days) the air hose on our brake was not even connected. Not having had a PAC brake on previous coaches we just thought the product was close to useless for the first 10,000 miles or so. We then had cause to remove the engine cover looking for a serious oil leak which has covered the entire rear end of the coach with oil, when we saw the hose simply laying near the PAC air cylinder. We connected it and, guess what, it worked quite well.
If you read the information on the PAC brake in the concertina folder it clearly says that the PAC brake should be used as much as practical to keep it in motion and prevent corrosion from freezing the butterfly valve spindle. Presumably, at some later date, the brake stopped working (either simply froze or froze due to the control system failing). We just returned to Indiana from a round trip to Las Vegas, crossing the Rockies twice on I70 with no sign of PAC brake operation. Not an enjoyable experience.

After getting down the west side we spent a day investigating the problem. Sure enough the brake unit itself was frozen solid. We acquired some non-petroleum based, high temperature grease as recommended and stripped the brake down, cleaned and lubricated the components and reassembled same.
The cylinder ram and butterfly spindle moved freely when we were done and we felt we had fixed the problem. No such luck - not a sign of braking. Thus we assume that the control system has failed (a complex combination of the cruise control, the throttle position, the engine computer and the gear box computer) and lack of operation had allowed the mechanical portion of the brake to corrode itself into the frozen condition. Calls to CC of course, bring the usual negative comments like "...a 30,000 pound vehicle, you must expect things to fall off..." while their recommendation for the brake was "...Cummins probably won't want to touch it, neither will Allison come to that. You could try Freightliner to see if they are interested...". What it is to have such helpful support! I just wish I could find such dumb schmucks as us folk for customers - I could have retired years ago!
In looking at the PAC brake we also discovered that the exhaust manifold is cracked between cylinders 2 and 3 (counting from the rear of the vehicle) and the resulting exhaust leak has all but set the engine cover on fire. It's a good job these things are only $300,000 or I would quite ticked.

On the question of dry camping, you effectively cannot do it at outside temperature much less than 40F without running the generator most of the night. The two 8D house batteries can only support the Hurricane heater for five or six hours (check this with CC) before the low voltage shutdown occurs and the heating stops. The cold will then wake you up and you try to start the generator. Silly you! It starts (or rather doesn't start) from the house batteries. Now, at around three in the morning, you start the main engine and run it for half an hour (really bad according to Cummins) to charge the house batteries enough to start the generator to charge the batteries so that you can have the heating back on. Four hours of generator seems to do the trick. Bring back the forced air propane heating we had previously - it kept us toasty all night and was $5,000 leas expensive. More CC progress.

Hope this helps,

Peter

CC Intrigue 2000 #11066
BritanniaInc.com
Phone 800-274-5245
Fax 219-483-3653

Re: PAC Brake

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 312
Peter, I guess I'm not the only unhappy camper out there. I can just feel your frustration. We're going in to Freightliner tomorrow night for them to look at the problem, it had been in a truck shop twice as they tried to trace the circuitry down. The techs were helpful but you had to call and leave a message and it could be an hour down time before they call you back to go to the next item. They couldn't resolve the problem and CC said to try Freightliner who said they would look at it.

That leaves me with a bad feeling because I know I have to pay the truck shop and I'm going to have to pay Freightliner and CC hasn't paid me for my repair bills that were sent in in February. I hope they can get it fixed.

I just received a certified mail recall on the Hurricane Heating System, seems some of the coaches were piped in wrong. Perhaps that's the solution to my ongoing coolant consumption problem. Seems one of the lines is carrying pressure and it shouldn't be.

Happy Camping :)

Pac Brake

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 337
Pete, I'm sorry to hear of your latest problems. We were traveling outside Taos, NM last year in our 99 Allure when we lost our turbine on the top of a mountain. Thankfully it was right next to a pull off so I just coasted in. That was a huge piece of luck as we had just crested the hill and were ready to start down. Nearest phone was 18 miles away and there was no cell phone service. Good thing we had a car. Cummins had us towed 155 miles to Durango, CO. (A nice place to get stuck, blue ribbon trout stream directly behind Camp Cummins) We were at Camp Cummins for five days while they disassembeled everything to get the turbine and charge air cooler out. Since the cooler was contanimated with oil they had to send it out to a radiator shop to be cleaned and pressure checked. Turns out it was full of cracks and holes and had to be welded all over the place. The Cummins mechanic said that it is because of the crummy installation design CC has.
That tow job was 1,000.00, thank goodness for insurance.

On to the Pac brake. I brought the rig in to my local heavy duty truck repair shop and they spent almost an entire day checking out evry circuit in the system. All relays checked out okay and all wiring was good. At the end of the day they said the next stop would be to have Allison check their modules because that it where everything leads to. It's a small shop and I didn't want to leave it on the street so I brought it home that night and asked CC if I shouldn't go to Allison. They said no, I should go to Freightliner and have them check it out. Five days later it went in the shop again, this time for two and a half days where all circuitry was again checked and guess what, they say it is probably an Allison problem.
Duhhhh. Well, we're off to Atlanta Tuesday so I have the coach back home again. When we get back Freightliner will bring it over to Allison for their diagnostics. We're leaving for a ten week trip on July 15th and it had better be fixed by then, I am getting discusted with travelling back and forth to repair shops.
Freightliner did the Hurricane Heat System recall for me, I had to pay them and CC is supposed to pay me. That leads to another major gripe.
My repair bills from February, which total over 500.00 are still open and just have been put in for processing. This week I spent another thousand dollars on the pac brake and heat system. How long will that take? I talked to customer relations and they promised to push this one along.

Oh well, no sense in getting my blood pressure up there, next stop will be to Cummins for the Air Compressor fix.

See you at the rally?

Happy Camping:)

John P

Re: Pac Brake

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 338
John,

Thanks for your email. Please keep me informed on your PAC brake saga and I will do the same for you. I have dropped a note to PAC Brake (which I copied you on) in the hope that they can provide a clue as to how these situations can be remedied. We too, have another trip over the Rockies in July and sincerely hope it is fixed by then - my brakes have to about shot now!

Peter

Britanniainc.com

Phone: 1-800-274-5245
Fax: 1-219-483-3653

Pac Brake

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 339
Has anyone had a pac brake sieze up so that the butterfly valve doesn't open or close? How did you free it up. Do you have to remove the valve to free it up or can you free it up on the coach? Thanks, John

Re: Pac Brake

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 340
Sorry to hear you are having difficulties. Yes, we have had the same problem and so has at least one other correspondent. Country Coach do not seem to have any idea who we should even talk to to get it fixed. My suspicion is that there is an additional underlying problem associated with the control logic - involving throttle pedal, engine computer, gear box computer, road speed and engine RPM - and the brake does not function even when not seized. As noted in the skimpy PAC brake documentation, lack of use will lead to seizure of the butterfly valve.
The company PAC Brake simply blames infrequent use as the cause, Cummins knows nothing, Country Coach say don't take it to Allison but try Freightliner and everyone else says "Why Freightliner?". Our coach (2000 Intrigue) is currently back with Cummins for the compressor fix, a cracked exhaust manifold, a ruptured charge air cooler, an incorrectly plumbed Hurricane heater and sundry other items that failed or fell off on our last trip. I will add your name to our "Failed PAC brake support group" in case one of us actually blunders into a way to get it fixed.
We did actually get our butterfly freed off and lubricated it and all the other associated bearings by spending a pleasant morning in Colorado up to our elbows in grease and rust. This was accomplished by stripping the unit down as far as possible in situ. The sad part is that when everything was reassembled and the air cylinder and butterfly all moved freely again, the brake still did not work. Crossing the Rockies twice on the service brakes is not much fun! We are now getting anxious about getting our coach back by July, having already cancelled two trips this month.

Peter Harrison
Britanniainc.com

Phone: 1-800-274-5245
Fax: 1-219-483-3653

Re: Pac Brake

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 351
Check back on some of the previous e-mails and talk to Peterh as I think he has done the whole thing himself.

Re: Pac Brake

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 353
John - we have a '99 Intrigue and twice the pac brake wiring (from the pac brake solenoid to the wiring harness has come undone due to the wire being too taut - we re-routed it and all is okay - when underway you would notice the downshift but no assist from the pac brake and assume the valve was frozen in the open position - I pulled the bed cover aside and worked the pac brake and when I realized it was free to operate I looked a little further and found the disconnected wire - you can manipulate the pac brake valve by using a screwdriver or other tool as a lever - if yours is in fact frozen use a silicone spray (not WD40) on the two mounting studs at either end of the pac brake actuator cylinder, also the actuator rod itself once you've freed it and finally where it enters the exhaust - good luck

Fred Johnson
 

Re: Pac Brake

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 364
Thanks for the hint Fred, all the electrical has been checked out and they have been able to activate it by jumping something or other. Ev erything is pointing to the Allison Module now. I have an appointment with Allison for when I get home Hopefully, this will resolve the problem. Happy Camping:) John