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Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #25 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7292
Hi Damon;

Thanks again for your response - sorry you don't want to continue the discussion, as the growing response from the group indicates some interest in the discussion.

Anyway, reviewing the comments, yours included, I will comment that:
1) Auto/truck invoices are regularily provided to customers, and are available through Internet services, so it can and is being done.
2) None of those systems expose manufacturers cost, just invoice charge (nor holdbacks, incentives or discounts).
3) Manufacturers and others can and work from cost - we used "cost plus" frequently in our manufacturing business for negotiated sales.
4) You keep repeating that "dealer cost is different on every coach, model, and how we received it (show or stock).", so what does this change about doing business on a cost plus profit basis.
5) I understand your position with Guaranty.
6) Change may come - you have a group of supporters and could be an
agent for change instead of justifyinging present business model.

Anyway, this needs to be discussed - I am disappointed, but understand, that the RV dealer and manufacturing community, and the supposed consumer organizations like Good Sam and FMCA, do not want to address this - challenges profits. But the growing influx of Baby Boomers (like myself) will continue to ask these questions in the hope of causing change.

Sawbuck

2002 Magna Resort - #6159

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #26 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7293
Damon:

I think you are missing the point to the initial thread that was started a few days ago by myself and a few others concerning the ability to purchase one's first coach. This has proved to be a very daunting task. Dealers have threatened not to service a coach if I went and purchased from another dealer, have stated that they could not "eat" if they sold a prospective coach if "one penny less" only to move $20,000.00 lower in price in just two days, took our credit which is excellent and "shot gunned" our application all over God's green creation. This is not how I want to conduct my business!
 
These are the types of methods we have encountered in the 2 months that Lorene and I have been shopping very diligently to purchase our FIRST coach, Now, I can say that you have been very helpful over the last few days in assisting us, but, like other dealers we are 5K apart on making a deal. That is not a problem, however, when we check pricing on a coach there is as much as $50-75,000.00 difference in asking to selling price so who knows for sure what is a fair price to pay for either a new or used coach.
 
You spoke about inflated sticker prices to over allow for a trade-in coach, this is at the crux of the issue! If dealers kept their markup at a stable price with a fair profit margin then and only the could you start to allow for a fair uninflated trade-in price on a coach. In addition, the downside of this on the financial side has a great impact on your ability to get some folks financed because bankers are aware of the price gauging that goes on in the RV Motor coach business and puts high demands on us for very large down payments and higher interest rates to compensate for the folks who just walk away from a coach that they can NEVER see the light of day on because the dealer they purchased the coach from has just completely screwed them on pricing regardless of new or used. Read the repossession rates are sky high on RV's! Much greater than cars, truck, and yes even airplanes!
 
The equation is simple, being in sales for a major high tech firm I can tell you that I NEVER allow any of my global managers to gauge ANY customer, we treat them very fairly, if they have a problem we fix it even if it's not our "fault". That's called goodwill and keeping a customer that will send you referrals.
 
While we have been solely focused on price this also applies to the service end of the business, calling the dealer and having to wait 3-4 weeks just to make a service appt. and longer if you did not purchase through that dealer's network is absolutely unbelievable! If I ran my business the way some of the dealers we have run into do today my company would go out of business and my personal reputation would not be worth a plugged nickel to my customers!
 
In conclusion I am NOT saying that you or your company conduct your business this way, but, quite a few are and have tried to take advantage of Lorene and I thinking that I was not a knowledgeable consumer in purchasing our first coach.
 
Thanks in advance for letting me rant and rave a little..... Damon, I believe that you're a good guy and thanks for the help this week in sorting through your inventory and IF you move $5000.00 I'll fly up and drive that coach home next weekend!
 
Kevin and Lorene Doukas

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #27 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7296

I should really keep out of this but it does take two to tango...I assume that you (Kevin) are dickering for a CC which can cost $300k and up. A difference of $5k is a very small percentage of the total cost. Can you divide the difference and make a congenial deal? Damon? Kevin? I am here in JC, at Camp CC, and will be happy to share a toast!

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #28 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7297

...I'm all about compromise and all I have asked of Damon is a $5000.00 discount off the price he quoted to me.... I do not think that is a lot to ask.... so yes, I'll be glad to toast a new coach...
To be fair to Damon, I think he would do this in a heart beat... It's his boss and a LONG story...

Kevin Doukas

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #29 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7301
Rick,

Do you credit any of the good service you mentioned to Damon? My experience with service at Guaranty couldn't be worse. Just wondering if the difference is the salesperson. Our salesman tried to help when we were totally frustrated, but the system didn't seem to give the sales staff any influence.
Doug

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #30 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7304
Doug,

When we encountered our problem in the service department, we went straight to the sales manager. After hearing our problem he had the service manager join us and work out our problem. Between the sales manager and the service manager, everything was taken care of. They frankly admitted that one of the problems associated with the huge sales gain has been the impact on the service dept. They were very apoligetic and made sure that we were able to get thru our ordeal with as little grief as possible. They gave us direct numbers to each of them and emphasized that if there were any further problems to let them know. The only way they know there is a problem is to let them know. Try this approch and see what happens.

John

99 Intrigue #10877

Re: Online Negotiations (free enterprise)

Reply #31 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7305
Kevin, you should take your negotiations offline. This thread started out as a discussion of sales practices, and has now ended up with you trading posts with a salesman regarding a specific price on a coach. It seems to some of us that you are trying to pressure this salesman to agree to your price by pushing the issue on this board, in front of the other owners. That may not be the case, but that is how it is coming across. Good luck, hope you end up buying a CC, they are great coaches.

Bill Harris

03 Allure 1st Ave 30912
Datastorm

Re: Online Negotiations (free enterprise)

Reply #32 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7309

Bill:

Thanks for the input, but, no I'm not trying to negotiate any price with Damon..... We have been communicating for over a week now, and I am moving on to purchase another coach. My reply was to a post by another coach owner who offered to "mediate" our differences.
The coach I was talking to Damon about was/is a used coach and I'm now going to move forward with a new coach (04 Inspire) from Buddy Gregg here in Dallas.
Please let me apologize if there was any inference of impropriety on my part... Best to all and have a GREAT THANKSGIVING and GO Cowboys!

Kevin and Lorene Doukas

Dallas, Texas

Re: Online Negotiations (free enterprise)

Reply #33 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7312
Kevin,

sounds great...welcome to the family of CC owners, and happy Thanksgiving to all!

Bill Harris

03 Allure 1st Ave 30912
Datastorm

Service

Reply #34 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7318
Hi Doug,

There is no question in my mind that the salesperson can make all the difference in the world with service. This could be before, during , or after the sale. You may be 15 states away, the salesman can and should make every effort possible to get you back on the road asap, period. The salesman can get involved whether it be speaking to the manufacturer, the service manager, the service center (if remote), there are many, many options available. Thats not to say that we can move mountains and walk on water to get you back on the road, but a sincere effort should be given.

I delivered a used 2002 Intrigue #11331 last week Wednesday, this was his 2nd Intrigue I had him. He lives in Illinois, he flew out to Eugene, I picked him up at the airport. We did his walk thru, he stuck around a couple of days and left last week Friday morning. He fought the snow all the way to Denver, CO. He called me at home Saturday night about 10:30pm, he pulled into a flying J, had dinner, returned to his coach and it would not crank over. He had plenty of power, all the dash lights worked, headlights, etc. but the engine would not turn over. He had called for a tow truck and the called me to see what I thought. I told him I thought the wire on his starter solenoid had fallen off with all the snow and ice he plowed thru.
When the tow truck driver showed up, John told him what I said and he used a screwdriver to jump the starter, and his Intrigue fired up.
He drove 5 miles down the road to a Kenworth dealer where they installed a new connector and plugged it back in to his starter for free about mid night.

So to answer your question, in my opinion the salesman can make a huge impact by helping you get back on the road asap. And John made it home for Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Damon

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #35 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7319
Sawbuck,

What is a reasonable profit? and who says you should not make as much as you can on the things you sell. I worked in the oil industry for 35 years and when ever anyone complained about how much we made on gasoilne, I always came back with "if it were your gasoline would you give it away", no one ever said yes.
We don't have a right to know what a dealer paid for a coach. He should be selling the coach for as much as he can get and we should trying to get it as cheap as possible keeping in mind that he needs a profit to stay in business and to be there when we need him. I always get a kick out of the guy that saves a few 100 dollars somewhere and then complains when he can't get service at the dealer who was a few hundred more expensive. After spending $20,000,000 a year for 35 years, you find out that the lowest price is not always the best price.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #36 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7331
Hi Bill;

No arguement with your statement in general - my point was in reference to the original thread about what is the "real" price of the RV, as compared to the list price.

As to your example, gasoline is a commodity and commodity pricing always is based on supply and demand, not so in the RV industry.
Also, commodities, by definition, are items which the consumer has little choice about purchasing (perhaps brand, but little else).
Lastly, complaining about the price of a commodity like fuel is an American pastime!

I used the term reasonable without defining it, and noted that to gain repeat customers, it may be a better policy. Not withstanding the fiction on auto dealer invoice, we can at least go on-line now and gain some insight as to the deler invoice price prior to dealing on a car. We still don't see manufacturer's cost, nor do we see the discounts, holdbacks, and incentive programs. But its a lot better than just looking at a window sticker and trying to get something off of it. Nothing here about "rights", just an optional approach to the current system...

Your position is okay, but still makes it difficult for a newbie to purchase a coach without paying too much or at least more than experienced buyers. When newbies do that, how many of them are happy later on, and how many don't buy a second rig?

Sawbuck

2002 Magna Resort #6159

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #37 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7332
Why dont you take this discussion private? This board is not meant for arguments (to quote you). This could go on forever and out of respect for the members, please take your argument off the board.

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #38 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7370
Sawbuck,

Will cost information really mean anything. Take cars for example, there are books everywhere on cars, and the info is only a guide line, you still do not know the real price the dealer pays because of all the special discounts the system offers to different dealers. People should do their own research and make their deals. Besides, when a person pays a higher price for something then we may get it cheaper because the dealer already made the profit he needs on that sale.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #39 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7374

Bill:

I think that I started the thread and Sawbuck has chimed in several time with may a good point! My contention has/is that dealers have so over inflated the pricing structure that it is almost impossible to get a FAIR honest price from ANY dealer.
The dealer network has successfully been able to manipulate the pricing structure to tilt the advantage so far in their direction that new folks like me wanting to strike a fair and equitable deal find it almost impossible to do so.... In Fact because of the "over allowance" that the dealer provides as a solution to show a customer for his/her trade more money in an effort to make that customer "feel" better" only makes this situation less palatable. If a dealer was to trade for a coach at real dollars his profit margins would drastically drop because the dealer would truly have to put a fair market price on a used coach, the customer like it or not! This would go to the dealer's bottom line as he would sell less coaches because the customer would truly see the market for what it is at the time of the prospective trade. This would go on for a couple of years until the customer's equity position improved and the fair market price of a new coach is adjusted down to reflect supply and demand. Until we as coach owners are willing to make the dealer network pay for their mistakes they will be able to continue the practice of a false over allowance and continue to inflate new coach prices exacerbating today's market place even further. A clear example of this pricing structure is a coach that I talked with Damon about, a 2002 Monaco Dynasty that his place of employment priced at over $250,000.00. When I inquired about this coach and Guaranty found out that it was a cash deal with NO trade the price dropped to $185,000.00, still some 10-15K too high. Currently Damon and I are $5000.00 apart on making a deal on this coach and I don't think we'll be able to get there due to his management team. Somebody please help me justify/understand the logic of a discount of almost $80,000.00 or roughly 29%?!
There is nothing wrong with profit and I would never want to put a dealer in a compromising (well almost never) position because I truly believe that a dealer must/should be able to take care of the customer network. The key is for ALL the dealers and coach owners to take stock in the actual cash value of the coach they own/want to trade and what a true cost structure should become on the new coach market. This is why after doing all the research that Lorene and I have done to date that we have not purchased a coach.
One final thought, as per my previous emails, the cost of repossession hurts us all and there are plenty of folks that find themselves so far upside down in the coach they currently own that many just walk away and let the bank/finance company have the coach back and that sure has a poor side effect on our ability to borrow/purchase a coach, new or used! We must work to reform the current system and force a more compliant and yes, profitable system for the dealers while controlling costs for the consumer! I would be glad to take a seat at a board of owner and dealers to help square away these issues!

Kevin Doukas

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #40 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7377
Kevin,

Life is to short to get hung up on the system, if we all waited for the perfect price and coach we would still be at the starting gate. This is a life style decision not a money decision. If spending money bothers you don't buy a coach. My wife calls it the check book sucker but we both love it and money isn't everything.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #41 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7381
From: "Kevin Doukas" kdoukas@...>

Quote
I think that I started the thread and Sawbuck has chimed in several time > with may a good point! My contention has/is that dealers have so over > inflated the pricing structure that it is almost impossible to get a > FAIR honest price from ANY dealer. (snip)
I'd like to see a set price on motorhomes as there are on Lexuses (Lexi?) and Saturns. Anyway, on a different scale, we paid $52K for our old '00 31-ft Winnebago Minnie Winnie DL Class C against an MSRP of $70K. In that case, I think that a newbie visiting an RV dealership sales lot on a weekend, for example, might be scared away by the $70K window sticker, whereas the $52K actual sales price looks pretty attractive, especially when many cars and SUVS are in the same price neighborhood.
I know that when I told many non-RVers that our Minnie Winnie "only" cost $52K, they were shocked, and said they thought it cost around $80K. Little did they know ...

The manufacturers might be cutting off their proverbial noses to spite their faces.

On the other hand, I don't know if a newbie will be attracted by a more realistic $225K price on the window of a motorhome that now has an MSRP of $300K.

It's time for every industry to change in many ways. Heck, my brother is able to bring his VW Jetta in to the dealership for service late at night, rather than during the daytime when he works!

Dick (& Geri) Campagna
'98 36' Intrigue #10571
Mfd: 11/97

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #42 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7386

Bill:

You are absolutely correct and that's why I need to make sure that we get the best deal possible. Lorene and I are in our mid 40's and have the expectations of needing more than one coach in our lifetime making the purchase of the first one of the up most importance. If you get hammered on he first one it becomes that much more difficult to purchase a second, third and even perhaps a forth coach.
I sure have no ax to grind with any dealer or his/her ability to make a profit, but, it sure does appear to us that they look at us as a "newbie" and "fresh meat".
The enjoyment aside, after the last couple of years in the stock market I need to watch every single penny, to the point that I have sold off a couple of my Ferrari's and we have moved into a smaller house to be able to afford this hobby. And If we're true to ourselves that is with this RV thing is to us at this time in our lives, a hobby. We hope to be able to join you all on the road at least 4-5 times a year and enjoy our purchase, but, I know myself and my type "a" personality and I would not enjoy the coach knowing that I paid too much and made a very poor decision, that old story a bout a fool and his money...... I feel this way because I clearly do not understand the proper technique to purchase a coach with a FAIR pricing structure, I'm not out to gauge ANY dealer or private party that we may purchase a coach through, just make a good and fair deal.
Judging by the amount of personal email that this thread has generated there are quite a few "newbies" in our position and a couple of seasoned veterans of the road as well, if you can give us any advise of help we would gladly accept it and hopefully on day return the favor, but, not understanding the market I might just as well set my money on fire and dump it in the fireplace....

Thanks in advance for your help and understanding!

Kevin and Lorene Doukas

04 Inspire buyers

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #43 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7387

..see the inserted comments below in Dick's email

Kevin Doukas

Quote
I'd like to see a set price on motorhomes as there are on Lexuses (Lexi?) and Saturns. Anyway, on a different scale, we paid $52K for our old '00 31-ft Winnebago Minnie Winnie DL Class C against an MSRP of $70K. In that case, I think that a newbie visiting an RV dealership sales lot on a weekend, for example, might be scared away by the $70K window sticker,
whereas the $52K actual sales price looks pretty attractive, especially when many cars and SUVS are in the same price neighborhood.
I know that when I told many non-RVers that our Minnie Winnie "only" cost $52K, they were shocked, and said they thought it cost around $80K. Little did they know ...

This is my exact point the public is flying blind in these matters, the pricing can be all over the map!

Quote
The manufacturers might be cutting off their proverbial noses to spite their faces.

Yes they are, how many more coaches would they sell if a fair pricing structure was put into place?

Quote
On the other hand, I don't know if a newbie will be attracted by a more realistic $225K price on the window of a motorhome that now has an MSRP of $300K.

I can't speak for others but it would make us feel more comfortable in our purchase and we might even get it done sooner rather than later!

Quote
It's time for every industry to change in many ways. Heck, my brother is able to bring his VW Jetta in to the dealership for service late at night, rather than during the daytime when he works!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #44 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7390
Bill G;

Good point, but it just seems to be a better bargaining position when you can printout online data and use it with the dealer.
Certainly there is no guaranty this data is cost or near cost, but , at least, it exposes the fiction of the posted list price.

Note: The moderator has requested we take this subject off line.

Sawbuck

2002 Magna Resort #6159

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #45 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7393
Kevin, with all due respect, why dont you buy a used coach with a book value, dicker down as far as you can and then you will know you did not get screwed by some unscrupulous sales person? Maybe that would make your life simpler and after you have rvd for a time you could figure out the RV industry by being a part of it. Maybe youll find that you would rather put your money back into sports cars. Candace 2002 Affinity 6129

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #47 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7403

Well, did Kevin get the new CC???

Ree

Full-Timin' 2003 Allure 30852 -- Back in Texas temporarily

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #48 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7404

.....actually yes we have, I 'm in the process of custom ordering a CC Inspire from Bill KIpp at Buddy Gregg here in Dallas. There are a few changes that are being added to the coach by CC including wood cabinets where the ABS is up front in the drivers compartment and bigger tires/wheels...
I would NOT give you a PLUGGED nickel for the sales guy Larry, but, Bill Kipp is just a great guy. He has taken very good care of us and I believe will enhance our ownership of the CC Inspire...

Now all we have to do is be patient and wait until Feb. when our coach will arrive..... Happy Holidays to all!

Kevin Doukas
 

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #49 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7450
Hi Doug,

Yes I credit so the good service to Damonl; he seems to know how to work the system there. It could of also been that my coach was new too. Since I live in So. Calif., I probably won't have much service work done at Guaranty.

Rick,

2004 CC Allure 31018

P. S. Note to Group: I've only had two problems to date with my coach and they should have been discovered before the coach was delivered to me. They were:

Steering wheel was approx. 30 degrees off-center to the left.
Windshield wipers were in-properly aligned. Both windshield wipers assemblies were replaced.
I think I know why they were out of adjustment. When they put the 3M on the front of the coach the day before they deliver the coach, the 3M installer takes off the windshield wiper assemblies to apply the 3M coating and I believe he does not re-install the wiper assemblies correctly. I don't know about the steering wheel but you think someone would have noticed it.

I'll knock on wood now and hope I don't discover any more problems.