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Free Enterprise

Yahoo Message Number: 7239
Damon, Damon, Damon: I thought we lived in the land of Free Enterprise, where competiton was a good thing. Are you dreaming that all of the Country Coach business be directed to you ? ? ? A Bad Idea for WHO? ?, The Dealers? ? ? ? ? ? Lee in Portland, voting for Competition among Dealers.....

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7242
Lee,

I knew I should have kept quiet ;-). The "only" item I want to make clear is that in my opinion posting a markup that is not correct and not in favor of Country Coach is a bad idea. Thats it, nothing else.

Off that subject and to answer your questions, I love Competition! Competition is a great thing, with out it we would not be where we are today. I am a very competitive person and I love competition.

I would never expect or indicate that all the CC business be directed to me, I dont know what makes you say this?

Damon

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7246
Damon, since you don't want ALL the Country Coach business, I'll go ahead and take it. (smile)

Robin

Free Enterprise

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7249
Excuse me...shouldn't this forum be centered on coach owners, not vendors. Seems we lose objectivity, huh?
One word of caution: Price is only one of the factors. A good dealer and proper prep and service is a huge factor. Been there. Done that. My dealer experience was so bad that it took all the fun out of buying a new coach. I'm a happy camper now, but will never (repeat, never) buy another new coach. Life is too short. Have fun.

We're headed for Arizona and warmer climate for the winter.

Larry
Intrigue
10762

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7256
WASHINGTON (Nov. 24) - Hassles related to buying new or used vehicles top the annual list of most frequent consumer complaints, according to a survey released Monday.
TheNational Association of Consumer Agency Administrators, which represents government agencies that protect American shoppers, and the Consumer Federation of America, a citizens advocacy group, compiled the top 10 list for 2002 from complaints reported to state and local consumer-protection agencies.
Those agencies said they were able to get $130 million returned to wronged consumers last year, an 18 percent increase over 2001.

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7258
To All,

I would like to put a "plug" in here for Damon. I just purchased a 2004, 36', CC Allure from Damon and it was a very pleasant experience. I found Damon to be very professional, considerate, knowledgeable, and competent. He went out of his way to make sure I was happy and to take care of any issues I had.
I have been looking for a coach for over a year and talk to hundreds of salespeople; joined this group; and also joined RV. org to do my research on what the best coaches are. Without a doubt, Damon was the best. He doesn't bullshit you; he gives the best number he can right from the start; he doesn't treat you like you are an idiot and you know nothing about the business. He understands that most people who buy Country Coaches are pretty savvy. And if you want to know if you are getting a good deal on a CC, just call around and see if anybody can beat his number. I believe in most cases, his deals cannot be beat (no one could in my case). There is a reason why he has been the top salesman for Country Coach the last two years running (and most likely this year too). There are other people on this board who can attest to their good experiences with Damon.
This is the first time in my life that I have formally put-in a good word for a salesman. I am doing this because most of the salespeople in the RV business are terrible. I am appalled by how bad they are. Most of the time, I knew much more about the coaches than they did. You will find very, very few salespeople as good as Damon is.

Hopefully, I didn't come on to strong.

Rick Barnette,
2004 CC 36' Allure
31018

P.S. He didn't pay me for that endorsement

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7260
Hi Doug,

Damon works for Guaranty RV in Junction City, Oregon (where Country Coaches are manufactured).

Rick

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7261
I agree 100%. Have had help and assistance from Damon for over three years even though our CC was purchased used from another Guaranty location.
 
When the DOW reaches 15000 we will purchase a new coach and will be dealing with Damon.
 
David & Karen CA.

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7264
Boy Larry, I sure agree with you. We have just gone through the "first year" with a new coach (not CC-next time but not new) and what a miserable experience. The people at the dealership were extremely nice but absolutely incompetent. Just picked up the coach yesterday (still not completed) for Thanksgiving. It has been unusable since early June. We missed summer vacation and many long weekend trips. Sad thing is our story of very incompetent dealerships is the norm not the exception. Glad we didn't have to pay, under warranty, as their labor rates are $120/hr.
 
Robert

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7265
Hi Rick

Congratulations on your new Allure.

I enjoyed your comments regarding Damon, and I agree. I wish to inform the group that I am a little bias on this topic, since I purchased my 2003 Allure from Damon. I feel very fortunate to have met Damon and learned the basics of Diesel Motor Homes from him. I was not so lucky with my first RV purchase.

I know that there are other great RV sales people out there. I just have not met them yet. Having the right salesperson is much more inportant then the dealership. (IMHO)

Thanks Damon for all that you have done.

Tom Royer

2003 Allure #30858

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7266
Damon, I know it's Thanksgiving and all that, but aren't you embarrassed by having all your relatives write in for you? (smile)

Have a great turkey day.

Robin

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7267
Robin,

I am embarrassed, especially since they all live in Hawaii. Do you know what time they had to get up this morning!

Gobble-Gobble and thanks everyone.

Damon

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7268
I guess I should throw my .02 cents in as well. I have never met Damon. And I have only communciated with him via this group. I am currently looking for a used CC to purchase. Damon has been very helpful in getting me educated about CC's. I don't know if the opportunity to buy from Damon will present itself but I would not hesitate to do so if or when he has "the" coach I want. Best to all and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Michael

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7269

So, I'll throw my $.02 worth here... we call and talked with Damon and while we were not able to come to a deal he was more than helpful... It's unfortunate that we're $5000.00 apart... He did his best and now we're off to find another coach..

Kevin and Lorene Doukas

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7271
I think its great that so many people appreciate the work that Damon has done for them, but I think we've lost the thread. This started by a comment that "to learn the manufacturer's transfer price to the dealer, divide the list price by 1.4". Damon stated this is old info and that the current divisor is different for each manufacturer, but doesn't offer even a workable range of divisor to use.

Prior to buying our second CC in 2002, I learned from an ex-RV sales person that the CC divisor was 1.38 for the base price and 1.40 for the options. I was able to gain some confirmation from a secondary source, and used this info to establish the price I offered for our current coach. Note, I am not claiming that struck a deal at list divided by 1.38 or 1.4, but mearly used the result to set my price.

Interestingly, when my Guaranty salesperson scoffed at this number, I then went into a discussion of reasonable profit. Surprisingly, after much discussion we agreed that a reasonable profit on a new Magna was more than $6K and less than $10K. Again, I am not asking you to agree... However, when the salesperson carried in my offer of $8K over invoice, less holdbacks, sales management refused to show the invoice, discuss holdbacks, etc.

This, then, is the central issue in motorhome retail pricing - none of us are dealing from any knowledge of dealer cost, much less manufacturer cost. We have all learned to silently pity the newbie motorhomer who brags of buying a new coach at 10 or 15 percent off! We all seem to learn that if you don't get a discount of 25% off list, you were had. And, we all learn that the residual value of our coaches decreases by something like 20% the first year and 10% annually thereafter for the next four years or so, and this, not from list price, but from the real price (could this be the manufacturers transfer price?)

So, the issue of dealer pricing is real - no one knows how many first time motorhome buyers are upside down as they drive off the lot. And, how many of these first timers don't come back into the market when they learn they've been had? Damon and the others would much better serve the buyers if they worked on a reasonable profit over cost basis. This occurred in the automotive market, and it will likely occur in motorhomes - I just hope we don't have to wait too long... (naively stated).

Sawbuck

2002 Magna Resort #6159

Apologies to Damon for using him for this long comment - We've met and he seems okay.

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7272

I could not agree more! As Lorene and I started on the process of purchasing our first coach we had plenty of work to accomplish. Not only did we have to figure out the "system" but, we also had to determine who and what were the best coach builders and the model that would fit our needs.
After we completed that part of the process (very difficult for the newbie) we then had to research the coach dealer network and find one that met not only our price requirements, but more importantly our service requirements as well. Being totally new to the process we were/are going to need a lot of help on both fronts. Lorene and I spent the better part of six(+) weeks doing our diligence to this part of the process and decided to move forward with Buddy Gregg. This also proved to be the biggest headache that I have ever endured in my life.
Not having the secret handshake (formula to figure cost) we had to start from ground zero and through some savvy (lucky) negotiations we were able to back into the equation. And basically Sticker/1.4 is the dealer cost of a coach with the dealer keeping the holdback. So I quickly went to 27% off sticker and felt that this was/is a fair price and that is what we have settled on for our new CC Inspire to be delivered any day now....
PLEASE help us 'newbies" we need all the help and advise we can get... that's why we joined this group...

Thank you for allowing us to participate!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Kevin and Lorene Doukas

04 CC Inspire (no serial # yet)

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7276
Hi Sawbuck,

There is no workable range to offer as each manufacturer and model is different. There are also different mark ups for options like you stated. On a stock unit at a show we sometimes have incentives to move those coachs, there are many variables in this business. Then you have discount math and mark up math, which always gets confused and mix matched in favor of the buyer who has heard they can get a 30% discount (example) but does not realize how to do the math.

Pity... I had a customer who was reffered to me because his had 30 days left to live and needed to cash out of his 2002 Magna. He wanted me to wholesale it for him, he dropped off the Magna, his free and clear signed off title and paperwork from his purchase contract.
I noticed he paid 100% full retail, then this dealer charged him $1,400.00 for his walk thru/dealer prep. I questioned it and he said that he did in fact pay full retail, which I want to say was $440,000.00 plus. I called a few places with him (on speaker phone) and I think the highest buy bid we could get was $225,000.00. He took it and said "boy, this coach sure depreciated in a year didn't it?" You cannot blame depreciation on a buyer who paid full price, and I think many people do. You also cannot expect to retail purchase an RV and get retail back 2 years and 24,000. miles later.
The only accurate way to figure depreciation in to retail it yourself, of course this involves time, dealing with the public, phone calls, test drives, advertising, etc. Then throw a trade into the picture, how about a 98-40' non slide that there upside down $50,000.00 plus, having fun yet?

Buying a $300,000.00 RV is like buying $300,000.00 worth of airline tickets at once. Everytime you fly (or drive) you have used a ticket, you have to allow something for the good times, the bad times you laugh a year later (lets hope), the entire experience. It does not work for everyone, but most who try it love it and have priceless memories.

If you rip someone off chances of selling them another coach and getting refferals are pretty slim. Just as important you have to look at value, value in the coach, the dealership, & the salesperson. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.

Happy Holidays (even you Robin)

Damon

PS. I never let him wholesale the Magna, I retailed it for him that afternoon for $275,000.00.

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7278
Hi Damon;

Thanks for the interesting reply.

I think you are locking in too much on the issue of discounts/mark- ups, etc. The issue you and others keep trying to avaoid is cost information and a reasonable profit. It is not nearly so important to define the various discounts, incentives, programs, etc. being offered by the manufacturer to the dealer. Since we cannot buy direct, we must buy throught a dealer. Therfore, the fair way to treat customers would be to disclose whatever you pay the manufacturer for the coach and what your profit is (ideally justifying the profit by explaining the dealer costs which have to be covered by it.)

Most of us don't begrudge the dealer a fair profit; for we want the dealer to stay in business and support us with our coach issues down the road. The reason all this hocus-pocus about discounting the list price has evolved is that the list price system is not relevant to the cost of the coach nor anywhere close to what most informed customers pay for their motorhome. So we find a backwards sales system, where the salesperson acknowledges that no one pays list price, and therefore asks the customer for a 'bid" on the rig.
Depending on the knowledge and sophistication of the customer, this "bid" then becomes a working number which is adjusted, generally upward, until the dealer makes sufficient profit or determines the sale will be lost, or ? Dealer sales simply doesn't want to give an asking price, for fear of alienating a knowledgeable customer. Far better to let the customer offer a price, right?
Wouldn't a better system be one where the dealer says this motorhome costs $XXX, XXX.XX and for a unit of this cost, we add a charge of X percent, which includes our overhead, sales commission, profit, etc.

Not too likely right now, huh? But what if we all started organizing - and publishing the price we paid for our coaches, along with the list base and options prices off the CC build sheet. This would start to be quite a data source and offer some validating information to both new and repeat buyers.
Could be real interesting to get Lazydays looking at the prices paid by Guaranty buyers and vice versa...

So, what do you think?

Sawbuck

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7280
Sawbuck, I don't want to pay anymore than I have to for a coach, but I don't see why any dealer should have to tell a prospective customer what he pays for his product. Does the grocery store or the department store tell us what the wholesale price of their merchandise is? Not hardly. I don't care what someone posts as the wholesale price of any product, someone always gets a better deal from the manufacturer. Do you really think that macy's pays the same as your local small town clothing store? The majority of the folks buying a new CC have had some experience in the business world. I wonder how many of them would give their customers the price they pay for the items they sell. We always want to pay the lowest for what we buy and sell to others for the most we can. It all comes down to buying from someone you have some trust in. If you think buying from the lowest bidder is the only way, think HMO. That's what happens when every goes to the lowest bidder.
Do your home work, talk to others, follow the messages in groups like this, and deal with people who have a reputation for treating their customers right.

We bought our coach from Guaranty. We started there and ended up buying from them because friends whose judgement we trust recommended that we buy from Guaranty. We might have paid a few bucks more, but the service we have received has made up for it. We had some personality problems in the beginning with a service writer, but between the sales manager and the service manager we have been taken care of since. I would recommend them to anyone.
John

1999 Intrigue #10877

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7282
Quote from: sawbuck203
Most of us don't begrudge the dealer a fair profit;
Now there is a good question. What is a fair RV Dealer profit??. I my business an 8% after tax profit is our Goal. Our Main Metal supplier has 3% after tax profit Goal. So, what is a resonable after tax profit for An RV Dealer?????? Betcha, you will not get an RV Dealer Owner to give you a straight answer on that One......
Lee in Portland with only a 4.5% year to date after tax profit in our trcuk accessories/metals Fabicaton business....

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7286
Well stated Sawbuck ... couldn't agree with you more ... I wish we could learn what the invoice price for the motorhomes were ... just like you can with cars.

Rick

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7287

Damon:

I think you are missing the point to the initial thread that was started a few days ago by myself and a few others concerning the ability to purchase one's first coach. This has proved to be a very daunting task. Dealers have threatened not to service a coach if I went and purchased from another dealer, have stated that they could not "eat" if they sold a prospective coach if "one penny less" only to move $20,000.00 lower in price in just two days, took our credit which is excellent and "shot gunned" our application all over God's green creation. This is not how I want to conduct my business!
These are the types of methods we have encountered in the 2 months that Lorene and I have been shopping very diligently to purchase our FIRST coach, Now, I can say that you have been very helpful over the last few days in assisting us, but, like other dealers we are 5K apart on making a deal. That is not a problem, however, when we check pricing on a coach there is as much as $50-75,000.00 difference in asking to selling price so who knows for sure what is a fair price to pay for either a new or used coach.
You spoke about inflated sticker prices to over allow for a trade-in coach, this is at the crux of the issue! If dealers kept their markup at a stable price with a fair profit margin then and only the could you start to allow for a fair uninflated trade-in price on a coach. In addition, the downside of this on the financial side has a great impact on your ability to get some folks financed because bankers are aware of the price gauging that goes on in the RV Motor coach business and puts high demands on us for very large down payments and higher interest rates to compensate for the folks who just walk away from a coach that they can NEVER see the light of day on because the dealer they purchased the coach from has just completely screwed them on pricing regardless of new or used. Read the repossession rates are sky high on RV's! Much greater than cars, truck, and yes even airplanes!
The equation is simple, being in sales for a major high tech firm I can tell you that I NEVER allow any of my global managers to gauge ANY customer, we treat them very fairly, if they have a problem we fix it even if it's not our "fault". That's called goodwill and keeping a customer that will send you referrals.
While we have been solely focused on price this also applies to the service end of the business, calling the dealer and having to wait 3-4 weeks just to make a service appt. and longer if you did not purchase through that dealer's network is absolutely unbelievable! If I ran my business the way some of the dealers we have run into do today my company would go out of business and my personal reputation would not be worth a plugged nickel to my customers!
In conclusion I am NOT saying that you or your company conduct your business this way, but, quite a few are and have tried to take advantage of Lorene and I thinking that I was not a knowledgeable consumer in purchasing our first coach.
Thanks in advance for letting me rant and rave a little..... Damon, I believe that you're a good guy and thanks for the help this week in sorting through your inventory and IF you move $5000.00 I'll fly up and drive that coach home next weekend!

Kevin and Lorene Doukas

Free Enterprise

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7290
Sawbuck,

You will get the last word on this subject because this is my last word. I did answer your question, dealer cost is different on every coach, model, and how we received it (show or stock). Who knows what a fair price is? And most buyers have a "trade in" to really complicate matters. When a buyer has a trade in, that buyer is asking us to buy his trade from them. We may sell it in a day or still have it in two years. Think of the interest charges the larger dealers pay per day, month, or year. The overhead to run one of these RV dealerships is staggering.

Most buyers of these high end coachs are business owners or managers. Did you ever market your product from cost?

You get get organized and tell each other what you paid, but again most people had a trade in so how do you really know? The manufacturers change there mark up every year, you may get a rough average but I dont know what good it would do.

I guess we could go on all day, hopefully you can appreciate that I work for a dealer and sell RV's for a living. I am trying to give you an insight from my view. Every deal is different.

So that is what I think. Thanks for your replys.

Damon

Re: Free Enterprise

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 7291
As a long-time "lurker" and coach wannabe (been researching for nearly 2 years and will probably buy this spring), I've followed this thread closely. It's easy to see both viewpoints, but as a consumer I tend to agree with the "gimme the data" side. I'm perfectly willing to pay my fair share for whatever I buy, but don't want to pay a penny more, whether it's taxes, motorhomes, cars, houses, or whatever. The trouble with this industry seems to be that it's almost impossible to determine what that "fair share" price is.

I couldn't agree more that having a good dealer is important, but that's almost a function of geographic happenstance - if you happen to live close to a reputable dealer, then great, but if not, you're out of luck. IF you live close to a good dealer, then it's probably worth paying a bit more (what constitutes a "bit" is in the eye of the beholder) to be in the dealer's good graces if you need service.
On the other hand, we live 2,224.09 miles from Damon's dealership, so it is rather unlikely that we would service our coach there :)

Furthermore, it seems that even if you purchase from a reputable dealer, you're still likely to have to wait weeks (or even months) to get servicing. AND if you have a problem on the road, what dealer you purchased from seems to make almost no difference. Given all this, it's easy to understand why so many buyers (myself included) seem to focus on the price and the reputation of the manufacturer.
Which, of course, means we all want to know the detailed cost data to aid in our purchase decision :)

As for Damon, I've been following his posts since before he moved to Oregon, and he has a superb reputation for "telling it like it is" with regards to the various coaches, both good and bad. I've had several discussions with him, both e-mail and telephone, and have found his counsel to be uniformely excellent. He does not bad mouth other brands, and has been very candid about both the good and bad points of the CC coaches we've discussed. If we elect to go with a CC coach, we are very likely to buy it from Damon - presuming, of course, he gives me a good (make that great) price :)

Gary