Radiator Fans

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Radiator Fans

July 27, 2009, 05:52:40 pm

We are broken down in Savanah GA with inoperative radiator fan motors.
In attempting to resolve the problem we have been informed that our coach (08 Inspire 52093) was the only coach produced with 2 fans and a prototype fan speed controller which appears to have failed.
There is no documentation or hydraulic schematics for this setup in my manuals.

Does anyone have a CC coawh with 2 fan motors?
It seems that they went back to a single fan after this coach was built, if the info I learned is correct.

This begs the question, "What was the reason that this experiment was done?".

Was it because of engine overheating?

Charlie

08 Inspire 52093

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #1 – July 27, 2009, 06:20:44 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50105

Chalie,

It is bad fan motors, bad fan controller or both?
It is common practice to design fan controllers so that they default to full fan speed if they lose their 12 v source. This is a safety measure. Have you tried unplugging the 2 volt supply to the controller to see if the fans will go to full speed? Of course this will not work if the fan motors are gone as well as the controller.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #2 – July 27, 2009, 06:50:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50106

Charlie,

No, don't have two fans, but do have some knowledge of the "conventional" single fan systems. In a conventional electronic/hydraulic system the electronic controller connects to a solenoid valve which regulates the fan speed. Disconnecting the electrical connector to the solenoid (or cutting the wire) will put the fan(s) in high speed mode if the hydraulic system is operative, which may at least allow you to travel. Your fuel economy will be terrible, but at least you might be able to move.
If they used a conventionally configured hydraulic system with one solenoid valve, but with two fan motors, a really knowledgeable technician might be able to install a conventional controller in place of the experimental one and get you going. If they configured the hydraulics with two individual solenoid valves, you would likely need to replace the experimental controller with two conventional controllers, as one probably would not handle the electrical load of two solenoids. If you have a CAT engine that gets its fan speed information from the engine ECM this might work. But with a Cummins that gets its information from coolant and air temperature sensors, this would likely not work. (Which could explain the experimental controller.)
If you were in North Texas, I would love to come to you to see that setup!

Good Luck!
Dave

2000 Allure 36'
#30444

charliemaxjr wrote:

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #3 – July 27, 2009, 08:02:42 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50114

My 2008 Tribute 260 has two fans. The power is hydraulic, which comes from the Chelsea PTO. I am not at the coach, but would expect to find a schematic in the manual, but then, I also expected to find documentation about the PTO, but couldn't seem to separate the pages to be able to view it.

Jim Hill

2008 Tribute 260
81138

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #4 – July 27, 2009, 08:24:24 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50116

Thanks for the reply.

Unplugging the controller conection was the first thing that I tried.

It makes no difference.

In conversations with Gentry at CC TS he insisted that the connection was a 3 wire one. But later verified what i found to be true and it is a 2 wire connection as I related to him.

He had never heard of this configuration before I called.
I have been it contact with JD and he is doing a tremendous job for us trying to come up with a solution.

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #5 – July 27, 2009, 08:24:29 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50117

Dave,

This setup has a single fan speed controller which is parallel hydraulically connected to the 2 fan motors.

We have a Cummins ISL 425 engine.

I sent JD photos of the installation so he could tell us how to plumb around the controller, but he was at a loss since he had never seen this setup before.
Subsequently, he was told that this was the only coach built this way.
The pump and controller are manufactured by Eaton but they will not sell the controller to anyone since it is a CC propiatary design.
CC does not have any in stock at their parts distribution connection (Specialties Logistics)

So The Beat Goes On

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #6 – July 27, 2009, 08:56:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50119

Thanks Jim,

Since your coach has 2 fans the info that my coach is the only one with 2 fans is faulty.

They both are 08 models which is common.

Can you get to your coach and take a photo of the controller?

It is located on the rearmost lower inside part of the radiator.
My controller is a rctangular gold colored block with 3 hydraulic oil connections on it.

There is a connector on the lower part of the controller.
Does it have 2 or 3 wires coming out of it?

What brand of Diesel do you have?

Charlie

Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Hill" wrote:

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #7 – July 27, 2009, 09:33:22 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50121

Charlie, mine is the same gold color as I was just under it today. I will have to make a trip to answer your question about 2 or 3 wires, though I suspect that it is 3. My engine is a Cummins ISL 425. If you need the photo and number of wires, please let me know quickly as I fly back home to Alaska in the early morning.

Jim Hill

2008 Tribute 260
81138

253-905-3966

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #8 – July 27, 2009, 09:38:31 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50122

Hard to believe that both fan motors would fail at the same time?

Larry, 03 Allure 30856

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #9 – July 27, 2009, 09:44:05 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50123

Single controller, located on the aft inboard edge of the radiator near the corner. When it gets dirty, it looks black, but when you steam clean it (I just finished doing my annual maintenance, so it was cleaned) you see that it is gold in color, and no doubt costs about as much as if it were gold.

Jim Hill

2008 Tribute 260
81138

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #10 – July 28, 2009, 07:23:02 am

Yahoo Message Number: 50129

Have you checked to be sure you have hydraulic pressure? Do you have a PTO?

Mikee

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #11 – July 28, 2009, 08:57:41 am

Yahoo Message Number: 50131

Jim,

A photo is not necessary, it probably is like mine.

But since you have the same engine as me it is more than likely a 2 wire connection to the engine computer as mine.

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #12 – July 28, 2009, 09:00:33 am

Yahoo Message Number: 50132

I agree, the propabitities of both fan motors failing at the same time seems remote.

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #13 – July 28, 2009, 09:14:37 am

Yahoo Message Number: 50133

Mikee,

Even though we are at a truck repair place, they do no have a flow/pressure guage big enough to measure the flow.
After letting the engine idle for about 30 minutes the return hyraulic line to the resevoir went from 90 to 122 degrees which I believe indicates that there is fluid flow.

Of course it does not tell if the pressure is high enough.

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #14 – July 28, 2009, 11:00:09 am

Yahoo Message Number: 50134

Okay, move to step 2... Remove the pressure line from the controller and connect it to the 2 lines that go to the fans, connect the return lines together and see if the fans run. This will tell you the fans are good and make the unit drivable until you can get the controller issue figured out. I suspect a one fan controller can be plumbed to operate 2 fans with a few fittings.

Mikee

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #15 – July 28, 2009, 01:18:16 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50139

Mikee,

Thanks again for your suggestions, but this system is not the same as the earlier ones.

JD and I have been trying to figure out how this system works.

It looks like the actual speed controlling is done at the pump.
One of hydraulic line from the controller goes to the bottom of the pump right next to where 2 adjustment allen screws are located.

The connection from the top of the controller comes ftom a tap off at the large high volume tee feeding the 2 motors. This looks like a pressure source.
The third controller connection is teed with the combined connections from the 2 fan motors and runs back to the hydraulic oil reservoir.

It is starting to look like the problem may be in the pump.

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #16 – July 28, 2009, 01:34:05 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50141

I am willing to bet the pump speed is not controlled. I would speculate the wire going to the pump is a pressure relief valve that is electrically operated. ... If this is correct I would take that part apart and check for dirt, trash etc blocking the operation of the pressure relief valve. From this description this situation is more likely than the controller failure. A pressure gauge put in the line would give you the operating pressure. This would be my first move. The oil temp will rise if the oil is going thru the motors or a relief valve. This is something that could be determined in my shop in an hour of so. This is not rocket science, it is basic hydraulics. Maybe you should find a hydraulic shop in the area you are and let them have a peek.

Mikee

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #17 – July 28, 2009, 01:40:24 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50143

If the wire does control pump output it has to be a swash plate pump, which can be forced to max output. It functions very similar to a relief valve. This is the way hydrostatic drives operate on machinery. Speed is varied by pump output. The pump speed is constant and the pump piston displacement is varies by the tilt of the "swash" plate. big angle big output, small angle small output.

Mikee

In a message dated 07/28/09 13:34:39 Eastern Daylight Time, mbaul writes:

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #18 – July 28, 2009, 01:54:49 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50145

Mikee

You made a reference to a wire going to the pump.

To be clear, it is not an electrical wire but a hydraulic hose coming from the controller.

We believe that this is the control signal that tells the pump what volume/pressure/ to supply to the motors and determines their speed.
You are of course correct, the pump shaft speed is determined by the engine RPM. Therefore a means to change the output must designed.

Charlie

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #19 – July 28, 2009, 02:28:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50149

The oil line is most likely doing the output control as you suspect, this functions the same as a electric control except it is oil fed. It should be easy to check for proper operation. There is still a strong possibility there is a piece of trash in the control. The pressure gauge in the line going to the fan motors can confirm this. The oil line most likely pushes a piston out to increase swash plate angle. You might hook up a line operated by air to this piston start a 0 lbs watch the fans, increase the air pressure see if the fan speed increases. If so it works and the problem is in the delivery of oil to that device. Now, expect the air to leak by this piston, but it should work for a quick test. If you have an external source for hydraulic oil pressure you could use that as well. You do need to figure out which end the problem is on. Another way would be to put a pressure gauge in this line and see if the pressure changes as the engine temp goes up. There are several ways to do this, this is the best way to figure out what is happening. A little investigation will yield the info you need. A little ingenuity will let you rig some plumbing that will at least let you get back on the road until you can get the parts you need to fix or modify the system.

Mikee

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #20 – July 28, 2009, 02:37:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50151

John Davis just sent me a page about this pump, it is as I suspected a swash plate pump with the oil control line controlling the angle of the swash plate or cam at eaton calls it. Put a gauge on the control line and see what the control pressure is....
Low control pressure is either the fan controller or a blockage in the line. If the control pressure is 200 or above the control piston is most likely stuck from trash or galling.

Again, you can also do this with external pressure to this port.

Mikee

In a message dated 07/28/09 14:29:11 Eastern Daylight Time, mbaul writes:

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #21 – July 28, 2009, 07:28:09 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50164

Quote from: charliemaxjr"

> We are broken down in Savanah GA with inoperative radiator fan motors.
> In attempting to resolve the problem we have been informed that our coach (08 Inspire 52093) was the only coach produced with 2 fans > and a prototype fan speed controller which appears to have failed.
> There is no documentation or hydraulic schematics for this setup in my manuals.

Does anyone have a CC coawh with 2 fan motors? > > It seems that they went back to a single fan after this coach was built, > if the info I learned is correct.
> This begs the question, "What was the reason that this experiment was done?".

Was it because of engine overheating? >

Charlie

08 Inspire 52093

Charlie,

I have a 2008 Inspire 360 #52088. I has a CAT C9 and 2 fans. I checked my documents and I have no documentation or hydraulic schematics for this setup in my manuals either.

Joe

Re: Radiator Fans

Reply #22 – July 28, 2009, 07:55:04 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 50166

Thanks Joe,

Your coach is only 5 units behind ours.

It looks like CC could not keep up with the document revisions.
I was able to draw up a schematic of the fan hydraulic system and JD has a copy of it.

Hopefully tomorrow we will get a handle on why our system is inoperative.

Charlie

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