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Electrical Capacity

Yahoo Message Number: 3579
I thought I had serious electrical problems when I encountered frequent breaker tripping when connected to 30 Amp shore power. What I have learned is that the Trace inverter pulls 18plus amps when in the bulk charging mode and the Hurricane hot water heater pulls 15.
This means if the battery is charging you can't take a shower if connected to 30amp service and you surely can't run an air conditioner.I never had this problem in my previous CC Intrigues, just had to be careful with toasters, etc. I guess the solution when on 30amp shore power is to flip the inverter breaker which controls the charger and watch the panel to be sure the batteries don't get too low. I hope to discuss this with CC at the Ft. Myers Rally.

Walt Rothermel
2003Allure30811

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3581
Your other option is to flip the switch on the electric part of the hurricane. There are two 10 amp(15) switches. I had the same problem with 30 amp supply at campground and had everything turned off. Then i figured out and just turned off the electric. Hope this helps.

Quote
>From: "spiker1029 Spiker1029@...>" Spiker1029@...> >Reply-To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Electrical Capacity >Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:12:03 -0000 >
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Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3610
Let's hear it for the engineers!

And, if you don't mind, give us a report on the response.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3612
Not sure of the design and control for the Trace system. I can relate to my Heart system. The trick is 'power sharing'. In my 2000 Allure there was only the remote ON/OFF switch above the door. The converter/charger would put out whatever the current draw that was needed to keep the batteries charged. With a 30 A service, the other appliances that could be operated was minimum. I installed a remote control panel that allowed me to use a couple of existinf functions not previously available with the standard ON/OFF switch. One was the 'Power Sharing ' feature that allowed the control of the rate of charge the charger would provide. It allowed a setting to as little as 5A. Also, the new panel allowed me to access the battery equalization function of the Heart converter/charger, which I think is important to maintain the batteries.

You may want to take a look at your control panel for the Trace and see if you can control the rate of charge. Thus, allowing a sharing of the available current with 30A service.

Jim Hughes

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3617
I have a Link 1000 contoller on mine. I turn off the battery charger (the Link has a button) when we are using energy gobbling appiances.
I usually turn it off in the morning and evening---no breaker trips! The charger, microwave, and TV combined cause me trouble on 30 amps.
I have turned it off all day and run it at night, but quit doing that to minimize the rate and frequency of discharge cycles (which I am told drives battery life).

I think that others who wrote on this subject indicated that the power sharing feature can be a problem (rather than capacity).
Turning off the charger solves this too.

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3619
I have the Trace inverter and it has the sensing ability that reduces the charge amperage based on the setting of between 30 to 5 amps. I have not played around with this setting but have had a campground 30 amp breaker trip when too much was demanded of it. CC recommends setting it at 30 amps (the max) and, as far as I know, delivers a new coach at that setting.
If set to a lower setting, it should, in theory, provide more power to the 'comfort' appliances when needed and more to the battery overnight when other things are not used.

I think that I would prefer that rather than risk forgetting to turn the charger back on.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3637
Jim & Walt,

My 2003 Allure #30898 has a Trace unit that has the feature to "Control the Charge Rate" by using the buttons to scroll down the Inventer Menu.

Also WARNING ON USING the TAG AXLE LIFT....this weekend I "CRACKED" the OIL SUMP PAN by lifting the TAG while making a sharp turn out of a driveway which as also had a CULVERT in it....I was at Evergreen RV's driveway...coach is now in BAY 4 awaiting AIR SHIPMENT of FIBERGLASS OIL SUMP @ approx $400 to $500. EXPENSIVE LESSON (don't lift tag except on LEVEL GROUND)....not worth it....a little TAG TIRE WEAR is a better deal.

Thanks, MIKE CARNES - '03 Allure #30898

Quote from: Jim Hughes\[br\
"]
Not sure of the design and control for the Trace system. I can > relate to my Heart system. The trick is 'power sharing'. In my

2000

Quote
Allure there was only the remote ON/OFF switch above the door. The > converter/charger would put out whatever the current draw that was > needed to keep the batteries charged. With a 30 A service, the

other

Quote
appliances that could be operated was minimum. I installed a

remote

Quote
control panel that allowed me to use a couple of existinf functions > not previously available with the standard ON/OFF switch. One was > the 'Power Sharing ' feature that allowed the control of the rate

of

Quote
charge the charger would provide. It allowed a setting to as

little

Quote
as 5A. Also, the new panel allowed me to access the battery > equalization function of the Heart converter/charger, which I think > is important to maintain the batteries.
> You may want to take a look at your control panel for the Trace and > see if you can control the rate of charge. Thus, allowing a

sharing

Tag Axel was Electrical Capacity

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3646
That is an interesting bit of info, Mike. The button that you push to raise the tag has a setting where it automatically comes up anytime the coach slows down to about 10 mph, then raises automatically when you speed up.
Does anybody leave it on that setting? I have some and it works great--and then I don't have to think about it when I go around a corner. But, I don't know if it is "ok" to leave it like that all the time. After your problem, I would think it might be the thing to do.

Comments from you guys with more experience, please.
I am were you were treated well by the folks at Evergreen RV (if it is the one in New Braunfels, TX. They have some very knowledgeable techs working there. I have been very pleased with them and can recommend them for service as well as sales since that is where I purchased my rig.

Ree

Full-timin' in 2003 Allure # 30852
Currently at www.eldoradoranch.com on the Baja near www.sanfelipe.com.mx where the sun shines every day!
Y'all come on down and play!

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3647
In the recent past many have discusses battery problems. I have been trying to collect info on the subject. I have the following amperages for various items in the coach: Air conditioners 13 amps; hot water heater when on house current 9 amps; refrigerator 7 amps. That is 29 amps right there and will probably cause circuit breakers to pop at a 30 amp campground. What I am missing though is the amperage used by the battery charger on the inverter. As I sit here I cannot recall what inverter I have but believe it is the Heart Freedom 2000 with the 100 amp battery charger. I think the numbers could be helpful in preventing problems. At a 30 amp campground if air conditioning is needed then switch the frig and the hot water to propane...
BTW, just so you know what you are missing, here in the Berkshires of western Mass. it has snowed for the past 24 hours and it is still coming down! It will be off to the RV soon to clean the snow off of the roof.
Enjoy the sunshine wherever you are...

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3649
Hi there,

Remember you have two 30 Amp legs in your motor home. Not all the draw you mentioned is from one leg.

Battery charger draws from shore power not from the inverter.

Hope this helps.

Bob Ewing

bobbooewingtoo@...

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3650
When our charger goes on initially it draws about 21 amps, but it goes down rapidly.

This is the one thing I watch closely when we hook up in a park. If we only have 15 amps I start the generator first to bring the initial charging rate down. With 30 amps I wait untill the big draw items are not in use before putting on the charger. With 50 amps there is no concern unless the ACs are on. You do have two legs to 30 amps and 50 amps but that does not help the over all draw.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3651
You have to remember to look at start-up load amps vs. running load amps on equipment when calculating max load conditions for a curcuit. It is often when a air conditioning unit starts up the much higher start up load is what trips the already loaded circuit. Once running at a steady state, the air conditioning will draw less amp load.

Jim Hughes

Jacksonville, FL
2000 Allure #30511

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3652
30A service does NOT have two legs. The coach does have TWO 50A legs, each leg serving a variety of 10, 20 and 30 amp breakers.

The 30A service in the park service is a SINGLE breaker. Your 30A cord or 30-50A adapter takes this ONE circuit/leg and feeds BOTH legs in the coach.

With 30A service, you are limited to a total of 30A. With 50A service, you are limited to a total of 100A, if you can equally balance the load to 50A per leg.

Unfortunately, in our coaches (at least those with Invertrex) the 12V charger/converter is not on unless the inverter is also on.

I am here at Emerald Desert RV Resort (site 877). An employee here just took delivery of a 2002 Allure. He has problems with breakers popping, and was told that when connected to shore power, that the invertrex should be left off. I believe he will eventually had dead batteries after days of running his 12V lights. When he turns it on, the invertrex will ramp up to 20+ amps, preventing successful operation of an electric space heater, toaster or coffee maker, IF he was only on 30A service.

If I find myself in a 30A park with partially charged batteries and wanting to make coffee, I turn off the invertrex, make the coffee, then turn the invertrex back on to charge the batteries.

Even on 50A service, if you are running the REAR A/C, Inventrex on depleted batteries, and 20A of toasters/coffee makers, you will probably exceed the limit of the 50A leg that those are on. Switch to the FRONT A/C instead as it is on the other 50A leg.

Hope this helps.
Herb

Forum Moderator

CC Allure 2002 #30690

(If you are at Emerald Desert, drop on by space 877. Here until 1/30/2003)

Quote from: bobbooewingtoo@a\.\.\.\[br\
] > Hi there,

Remember you have two 30 Amp legs in your motor home. Not all the

draw you

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3653
Maybe I am not thinking...and then I only purchased the Allure #30493 in June...but how does one turn the charger on and off??? There is a switch above the door for the inverter and that is always off but my understanding is that the charger is still on. I would also believe that it is best to have the charger on at all times in order to protect the batteries. Ah...if I turn off the switch for the inverter in the power box above the bed in the rear bedroom that will probably shut down the charger...I have done that once and forgot to turn it back on...and swore to never do it again.

I do use the Good Governor testing tool and that helps to watch the voltages and also gives the frequency (hertz) when the genset is running.

Another related question: when the battery disconnect switches are turned to OFF do you find that the batteries still drain??? I believe the engine computers are always ON but there must be some other leaks as I find battery voltages go down too much and I do have one 100 amp solar panel on my roof. I do not know how to check for these leaks...Fire away!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:02:34 EST gablerwh@... writes:

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3654
I thought the Invertrex units were dropped back in 99...My 2000 Allure #30493 has the Heart Freedom 2000 watt inverter and the charger is supposed to always be on even if the inverter switch above the door is turned OFF (which it should be; only turn it ON when you need the inverter). I am disappointed with the Allure due to the electrical capacity issue. The 8D batteries that are supplied are not deep cycle.
I have replaced my house batteries with four deep cycle 6v batteries and I also have a 100 amp solar panel. However, the batteries are still being depleted even with the battery disconnect switches OFF. I am trying to take drives every 2 weeks and that is helping. But 5 days after charging the batteries voltages drop to 12.1 and even 11.9. Not good altho the engine battery does keep starting. I just asked in another email how I can check for leaks. Can I disconnect the pos cable at the house batteries and stop any leaks that way? I assume that the engine computers (ECM with Cummins) take power from the chassis battery so I would not want to play with that battery. Suggestions and knowledge welcome!

On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:44:25 -0000 "Herb & Melitta Strandberg herb@...>" herb@...> writes:

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3655
Can't help you on what is pulling your batteries down but I can tell you that we have 2-75 watt solar panels on our 2001 Magna and that keeps our batteries up all the time. Right now our coach has been in storage for 2 months and the batteries are at 12.9 and 13 .05. We do live in a very sunny area and I store the coach with both sets of batteries shut down.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3656
I'm not quite sure why so many folks seem to enter a campground with depleted batteries. If you run with your inverter/charger on, you should be pretty near "Float" when you get there, so there's a minimal amount of time spent topping off the batteries.

With 30 amp service, if AC is needed, we have propane on for refrig and water heater. If on 50 amp, there's ample juice for them to be on AC.

It was my understanding at a class at CC, that the inverter/charger (we have a Trace now, after "turning in" our Invertrex) is programmed to provide maximum power for the coach's use before it uses power to charge the batteries. (We were also told to keep the Inverter/Charger ON while driving...turn it off if you don't need it when dry camping.
Only turn it on when you need AC power then.)

We also learned (as a previous writer has indicated) that 30 amp power is not just a "bit less" than 50 amp power, but is in fact a LOT different. (We are electrically challenged and still think it is "magic.") I think there are a lot more of we dummies who go about thinking that 30 amp power is only 20 amps less than 50 amp, so can't be a big diff! WRONG.

How do all you Totally Electric rigs do out there? Jan McNeill

2001 Intrigue 11320

Electrical Capacity

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3658
There is a website address that has a paper that might be pertinent to what you are discussing here concerning Inverter/Chargers in general and does mention CCs in particular. The paper's topic in "Xantrex Technologies" by Mike Swenson. Xantrex is a recent merger of Heart, Trace and others that manufactures Inverter/Chargers as you are probably aware.

That website is http://www.rversonline.org/01ConfCCXantrex.html
Fred

2002 DSDP

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3659
How do you shut down the batteries? Do you just turn the disconnect switches OFF or do something else? On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:09:36 EST gablerwh@... writes:

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3660
Quote
I'm not quite sure why so many folks seem to enter a campground
with depleted batteries. >

Quote
How do all you Totally Electric rigs do out there?
I'm surprised that anyone would have depleted batteries if the batteries are in good condition and they have been driving for several hours. Doesn't the alternator on the engine charge your batteries?

As for the last statement, "How do...out there?" Well as one who has a Prevost 40' XL Country Coach 1998 all electric, its not difficult.
We have 6-8d house batteries connected to (in our case) 2-4000 watt inverters. We have 4-12 volt engine run/start batteries. We have 2 separate alternators on the motor--one for the house bateries rated a 24 volt/270 amps and the other is 24 volts/75 amps. Then we have a 17.5KW deisel generator. We can use a campground 50 amp hookup for most everything we want, although we do have to watch our meters if we try to run everything at one time. Really can't turn on the 2 electric water heaters (also poswered by diesel Webasto heater), 3 roof airs, microwave, stacking washer/dryer, 2 burner electric range, toaster and cofeepot. And then turn on the 2 tv's and Bose stereo. Something has to be left out of the circuit so I make my wife give up her coffee!!!!

Yes there have been times we have tripped the campground 50 amp but I can count those times on one hand and probably have a few fingers left over. The problem for us is when we try to use a 30 amp campground. We can't use the washer/dryer and we have to realy watch the meter load with 1 roofair running and then try doing some cooking. I have to watch the inverter set-up as soon as we park with 30 amps. Once the inverters settle down their load drops considerably. Usually in the time it takes to set up awnings, chairs, etc. We can run 2 of the 3 roofairs on inverters but that then pulls down the batteries and the inverters have to begin to charge at a higher rate. What we usually do in hot weather is to run the generator when we need more than 1 roofair and want to do some cooking or when we need to run the washer/dryer. When plugged in at ANY campground we always have the "auto-start" set ON for our generator. And when at a 30 amp campground we leave the water heaters on the Webasto diesel heater.
You just have to learn how your own unit works and how much amperage demand your electrical items need. Knowledge is power and for motorhomers "power" is all-important whether it be engine power or electrical power!

Bill-PA-Country Coach Prevost 40 XL 1998

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3664
Good point, Bill, about the alternator charging all of the batteries when traveling. I do remember in prior postings that some CC's had some problems with the oil pressure sensor that sent power to the batteries after oil pressure was up.

If someone finds low voltage after a few hours driving a search of old posts should give some ideas on testing.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Electrical Capacity/Inverter always on

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3667
I am really glad that this topic has raised its ugly head. I always get so confused on this electrical stuff.
OK, my question----

I have been told (can't remember by whom) that in inverter switch above the door should always be left on. It doesn't hurt anything if it is on and it sure makes a nice transition for the electrical appliances and clocks if the inverter is left on and you disconnect from shore power.

What should I do? Leave it on or turn it off?

Tom Royer

2003 Allure #30858

Re: Electrical Capacity/Inverter always on

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3671
This will depend on the specifics of each of our models. With my 2000 Allure #30493 the battery charger works with the inverter switch above the door in the OFF position. In that case leave the Inverter switch OFF or you will just be wasting amps as you travel. If you are at a campground and plugged into shore power you will not need the Inverter so again leave the switch off. Just turn the switch ON if you need use of the inverter. If, however, the wiring in your coach requires the inverter switch to be ON in order for the battery charger to work then you have no choice about it. I think the most important thing is to make sure that your batteries are being charged.
On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:23:27 -0000 "Tom and Sherry Royer royerte@...>" royerte@...> writes:

Re: Electrical Capacity/Inverter always on

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3672
My opinion:

If you never dry camp..... leave it on.
If you dry camp and want the most available power between recharges then, as stated by someone else, treat it like a light switch. Turn it on when a 110vac appliance is needed and turn it off when not. All the clocks and memories in the many appliances add up as well as the draw in keeping the inverter on. Also, there is a feature (at least in the Trace) that puts the inverter "to sleep" until something is turned on and requires power from the inverter. However, it appears that setting this feature up properly is somewhat tricky.... I've not attempted to use it.

Dick May

2002 Intrigue, #11438
Dick May
2002 Intrigue, #11438, towing a
2014 Jeep Gr Cherokee ecoDiesel

Re: Electrical Capacity

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 3675
Mike

I shut down the batteries by throwing the interior switch for the coach and the chassie switch in my outside rear compartment. The location is different on each model. We have a 2001 Magna, which is never truely shut down, there is always something on.

I talked with CCI about a complete shut down but that is difficult to do so we installed solar panels which has worked out very well. Solar panels are easy to install because the Magnas are prewired thru the refrig. vent.

Bill G. 2001 Magna #5998