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Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Yahoo Message Number: 54906
Hello everyone, this is my first post. My wife and I are about a year away from full-timing and are coming into the market for a diesel coach in the next few months. I saw an ad for a 2005 Allure that looked nice,I decided I should join the group and splash around a little before even going to look at it. In that process, I have quickly started to learn about micro cracking of fiberglass and it will be something I will be looking for.
But from what I have read on here, I am not sure I understand the practical considerations of buying a coach that could have it or develop it. Replacing the fiberglass would be way beyond any project I would ever want to buy. So is it a matter that the paint will lose some depth of image or at the other extreme will the fiberglass eventually start chunking off? I just don't yet understand what micro cracking might mean in practical terms.
If my question has already been answered, I am sorry. I did try to use search and read a lot. If it is already answered somewhere, would someone please just direct me toward good threads. Thanks in advance.
Thanks, I see there is lots of good info here and is a group I would look to be more a part of if I go forward with a Country Coach.

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54907
Its a cosmetic flaw that sometimes shows up in darker colors because the darker colors get hotter. You probably would have to get withing arms length to even see it. Most of the coaches have this made from Owens Corning if I am correct so nearly every brand could be a likely candidate for checking. Have fun buy what you like and get out there amongst us, we'll be glad to have you.

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54908
There are a lot of issues when buying a coach, high ceilings or low, Cat or Cummins, factory chassis second party chassis, cherry wood that gets darker when walnut gets lighter, all electric or not. So many issues that are important and then comes micro-cracking. It can never truly be fixed unless replaced. It can be worked around by going to light colors, but no guarantee. So set your priorities. I would look at Intrigues and up myself, for the upgraded fibre glass.. I have had both. The later Allures I always felt gave you the most coach for the money. But for storage space and all around performance a 2005 42' Intrigue is hard to beat. It is the last of the classic coaches before the Howard redesigns. All the experienced techs know them inside and out and though complicated not anything like the later coaches. With the redesigned slide rooms they should be free of water leaks and room delaminations the earlier models, all suffered from. If you live in an area with CC techs at hand have them inspect the coach you wish to buy. They may know it very well. Ask the members of this group, we may know the coach, or know someone we can ask about the coach. Get to know the people at Oregon Motorcoach Service center, Bob Lee's place, if you live in the Northwest. Get to know Chris Snyder if you live in the Southwest, Eric Olstrum, too.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Original Message:
-----------------

From: Gary gary5x@... Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 03:28:08 -0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Hello everyone, this is my first post. My wife and I are about a year away from full-timing and are coming into the market for a diesel coach in the next few months. I saw an ad for a 2005 Allure that looked nice,I decided I should join the group and splash around a little before even going to look at it.
In that process, I have quickly started to learn about micro cracking of fiberglass and it will be something I will be looking for.

But from what I have read on here, I am not sure I understand the practical considerations of buying a coach that could have it or develop it. Replacing the fiberglass would be way beyond any project I would ever want to buy. So is it a matter that the paint will lose some depth of image or at the other extreme will the fiberglass eventually start chunking off? I just don't yet understand what micro cracking might mean in practical terms.

If my question has already been answered, I am sorry. I did try to use search and read a lot. If it is already answered somewhere, would someone please just direct me toward good threads. Thanks in advance.

Thanks, I see there is lots of good info here and is a group I would look to be more a part of if I go forward with a Country Coach.

mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54912
It seems to me an inexpensive quick fix would be some kind of matching color stain that could be wiped over the micro cracking area. It would be a stain that would not harm the clear coat, but would soak into the open fiberglass and stain it the matching color. That should make the cracking much less obvious.

George Harper
04 Allure
31093

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54923
Hi George H,

Easier said than done. The EPA mandated that the fiberglass construction spraying process be changed because of the fumes that entered the atmosphere. The spray nozzle was required to be held closer to the material the spray was spraying on. The fumes ended up in the fiberglass when the spray dried. They were then released when that area of the coach was subjected to the heat that was generated by sunlight especially on darker painted colors. The fumes would work their way to the surface through the paint and clear coat thus causing the crack or what some call paint checking. Depending on how and where the coach was parked, the process could take a couple of years or longer to show up. The explanation I have given is in general and not detailed or completely correct. If simply matching the color with a stain would work, CC and all the other coach manufacturers would have used the stain. Grinding off all the paint and repainting will not work either.

Chuck & Mary B

Red Bluff, Ca.

Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54927
I don't hear anyone saying fiberglass is going to start chunking off, but am still not sure I understand how bad/not bad it is likely to become.

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54930
You are correct Chuck. I was told that the micro checking occurs when the surface temperture exceeds 120-125 degrees on the darker surfaces. Since I live out in the desert, I have had this problem for over 3 years now on the dark surfaces of my Allure. It does not appear to be getting any worse and does not affect the structural integrity; cosmetic only. Country Coach tried several different approaches to see what would correct the micro-checking including grinding the surface and repainting (which did not work). You have to replace the fiberglass sides of the coach with the better quality fiberglass, which some folks have done, to properly fix the micro-checking. Cost estimates range from the $20-30k (or more) a coach to fix the problem. This is one of the reasons Country Coach could not do this; it would have bankrupted the company (100s of coaches were affected).
This is also one of the reasons why so many of us were so "unhappy" with Country Coach (particularily their management) because we were promised that Country Coach would address the problem and see that it got corrected. So, we were put on a waiting list while Country Coach tried to work this problem out with Dow Cornings (I had been on the list since Sept. 2006). They were unsuccessful working out the problem with Dow Corning and the rest is history ...

Rick Barnette,

2004 CC Allure, 31018

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54933
there is much to say, send me your phone number and I'll call you next week. Thomas w. Insall 2004 intrigue 11731. cmarshall@...

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54935
Actually, I think the end of the story is that Dow Corning settled with CC for 750 large, days before the bankruptcy.

The end result remains the same

Greg Jones

'03 Intrigue 11571

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54937
After seeing what it takes to remove the side walls of a coach and install new side walls, I would not want my coach to go through that. Not to fail to mention the replacement of the slides. Wires hanging everywhere, dust all over the place, enough said.

Chuck & Mary B

Red Bluff, Ca.

Shelby Dog, Miss Kitty, Mr Lucky Cat

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54938

Our '05 Inspire has this problem. It is present with the sections painted in dark colors, the light colors are not as prone to developing these darn near microscopic defects. None of mine have pierced the clear coat, they are in the fierglass paneling. There does not appear to be much, if any, potential for serious problems such as structural integrity or as you noted chunks falling off.
This problem is a potential for many models and brands of RVs, not just CC. It has been explained that while it might be easible to strip off the old paint, apply an epoxy primer sealer and repaint the coach. This would be very expensive and there is no guarantee it will cure the problem.
As previously mentioned, you must be within a few inches to even see this. As our coaches age this will be less and less a facor in value. It is used by sales people to offer lousy trade in amounts claiming the paint reduces the value. As many, many coaches of all sizes and brands that used this material are at risk it my not so humble opinion this tactic is an attempt to increase profit. I doubt seriously it would be mentoned to a potential buyer and I can assue you the asking price would be above book for negotiating purposes.
It first bothered the heck out of me when the tiny delamination pieces stated to show up. Over the last to years we have received numerous compliments on our beautifl coach and not a single person noticed a problem.
If possible stay with light colors but I would not hesitate to take advantage of a good deal. CC built some of the best in its class. That is based on 40+ years of RV/coach ownership including 2 CC's.

IMO it isn't a significant issue to me.
If you are familiar with the damage something called "love bugs" does to paint of vehicles diven in FL and adjacent states. That damae is ar worse than the checking/popping/whateve from the side walls. BTW the end caps and roof do not use the same material so those areas are being reported as showing the same problem.
Hope this is more helpful, feel free to ask me more and there is a lot of expertise in this group. If there are enoug coach owners who want this minor cosmetic problem fixed I am sure some enterprising business will offer a service. I am leaving ours alone.
And remember, again, this not a problem specific to Country Coach but applies to every manufacturer who bought product from Corning.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54951
Sometimes new ideas come along that no one else has thought of. Or, sometimes an idea like mine, applying a stain to the cracked fiberglass surface that would mask the white fiberglass cracks, do not meet "professonal" standards and would not be adopted by a repair shop. Nonetheless, a fix like that could work. My cracking is in an area that is painted dark blue. Maybe I'll try some dark blue ink and see what happens.

A proper repair would be far too expensive.

George Harper
04 Allure
31097

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54957
Bob, can you please fill us in on these Florida "love bugs"?

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54976

Well, that could fill a book. literally. I suugest a google search for more details than given below.
In short, every Spring and Fall these little black flies come up out of the earth, apparently they are even attracted by petroleum products, and they apply themselve to your vehicle as your drive down the road. The name "love bug" cemsa bout because it is mating eason and they, well, fly United. They can get so thick you have to pull over to remove them from the windshield. Using the windsheild washer system just smears them up and makes it worse. If left on your paint for 24hrs the acidic juices of their bodies will eat through at least the clear coat of most any paint. Sikkens seems to be better than most but even that will be damaged in short order if not cleaned.
During love bug season I keep a bucket of car soap/water and a scrub bud safe for paint just inside the garage door. After every drive I clean the little suckers off before damage can be done. Forget one time and you will damage your paint.
There are products ranging from screening held with elastic to chemicals, one is called Rejex, that at least slow down the process and damage or makle it easier to remove. In very warm weather it can be difficult to get the stuff off without a lot of elbow grease.
It is enough of a problem I try to stay out of FL and the southern areas of adjacent states during these times. Living here makes that tough to accomplish on a regular basis.
The insects have apparently worked their way from up Central America over the decades. Cold weather seems to kill the larvae.
I won't describe what it is like riding a motorcycle with no windshield of face shield. Yuck.

And they stink as well. Just lovely creations all around.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54990
I failed to clean the love bugs off of my 3M front protection. The 3M film has a thousand small holes where the acid ate through. I now need to remove the film if I want the front end to look decent.

George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54992

I hate it when that happens!

Seriously - I just went through the fight to get 3M to replace my film. Looks great but it will eventually fail as well.
My plan is still to get out of FL before they rise and not return until the are gone in the Fall. Now if only the wife will agree.
One of the only real negatives about central and north FL. For some reason they are not in the Miami/south FL area.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54994
Egads, Bob. That is disgusting. I am going to FL for the first time this winter perhaps into May. So, when does love bug season usually start in the Spring when does it end? I gather it is only a problem when driving and not when stationary? Can you avoid them by driving at night?

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 54997

Hi Rich:

Yes, they can be avoided by driving at night and early morning. By afternoon they get the thickest. When they show their sticky little black butts seems to depend on several factors including rain and weather. They also do not cooperate by coming out everyplace at the same time.
If you get them off quickly it isn't too hard. Let them set and they get like concrete.
I believe they are also called May Flies in some areas. Overall pretty worthless except as food for the frogs. But either they aren't that tasty or there aren't enough frogs.
I don't have a precise prediction but I think I am pretty close in saying they can come out as early as April but usually May and again as late as October but usually September. At each season they last over a month. Again, it can vary widely over at least 2 months.
I am not an expert on them, I just have lived with them. One thing I have learned is it does not matter what you want to talk about, it can, will or does grow in FL. Recent TV show says there are tens of thousands of Boa Constrictors living in the Everglades courtesy of pets that got too big and owners who couldn't bring themselves to kill them. So they just become another addition to the flora and fauna of FL. Bad news for pets in some neighborhoods in south FL.
We have had Cotton Mouth Moccasins and Pygmy Rattlers in our garage. The former can kill a human and the latter can kill a small pet and hurt you pretty seriously. I keep adding to this and I may put my house on the market.
We haven't found another place to live we like any better - that we can afford. I'd take Tom Selleck's place on Maui but he won't meet my price so I guess we'll have to put up with the love bugs and escape when possible in our beautiful Country Coach.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55015
Rich

I recently bought a product called Roadwrap. It is a plastic wrap similar to food wrap, but much stronger. You unroll it and put it on your painted front end surfaces and mirrors and then peel it off after you get home. So, the love bugs would come off with it and go in the trash instead of on your coach.
I bought it in anticipation of my next trip into the love bug region, so I have not used it yet, but I believe it would be a good solution to the problem. Prevention is better than removal.

http://www.buyroadwrap.com/
George Harper
04 Allure
31093

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55017

Where did you get the Roadwrap George?

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55018
Bob, I will drive at night, LOL! Sounds like the safest place to be is in a boat in the water.

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55024
We have an '06 Allure with a lot of dark colors and are always outdoors with most of the time in So. Nevada.
After 2 summers in the Pahrump (near Vegas) we started to have the micro-cracking appear in the dark colors. Since then it has not gotten any worse. It is only noticable when you're fairly close to the rig...from any distance you wouln't even notice it.
IMHO, if I was buying today this would not defer me but I would use it as a negotiating point to get the price down. I still think that our rig is one of the best made (manufacturer-wise) available and has held up well to over 3 1/2 years of ~60% use and over 30,000 mi of driving.
While I cetrinaly wish it would not have occurred, I also would not spend the $$ to address this item. Some people would be driven nuts by this type of a problem but they would probably also not last too long in the lifestyle either as there are always going to be problems/issues/cosmetic items that occur when you drive a house down a road on a regular basis.

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55034
Bob

I ordered it online at the Roadwrap website.

George

Re: Micro Cracking -- Practical Implications of Buying a 2005 Allure

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 55053
George, is one 18"x100ft. roll enough to do the front and mirrors? Do you think it would be OK on the Lexan Body Armor without leaving a residue? Is it reuseable?

Thanks, Rich 2002 Magna