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2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Yahoo Message Number: 62174
I am having a performance problem that leads me to suspect a bad load of fuel resulting in a fuel filter problem. In researching the correct fuel water separator and secondary filter I have come to question if the filter situation I have is correct. Of course my 2004 Allure manual provides the CC part #s for the filters but does me no good.
I have a primary fuel/water separator that is Wix 533242 which crosses to Fleetguard FS1242 which has been superceeded by FS1015. This filter has a bowl with a water drain and no sensor connector.
My secondary filter is a Fleetguard FS1022. This is also a fuel/water separator. It has a water drain and a sensor connector integrated with the bottom of the filter body so there is no bowl. The in filter water in fuel sensor is connected to the coach wiring for that warning light.
My concern is that there are two fuel water separators and no small micron secondary filter. However, when I look at the fuel system information in my manual my setup is visually identical to the photo of the service bay and the arrangement of the filters.
So, my questions are to other 2004 Allure owners. What fuel filters do you have? Which of the filters is wired for the water in fuel warning? What else should I know about this subject?

Thanks for your help.

George in Birmingham(Now in Chama, NM) 2004 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62186
George,

I have the same filters and wiring set-up as you do. I also thought this was kind of strange having two filters of similar specs. I asked a Cummins tech and he said "only one is required" so the second is just extra protection.
Also tried to replace with a superceeded part #, but the threads did not match, so I just left it alone. I've been using the FS1022 & FS1242 for nine years and no problems.
Logic would seem to have one separator and one smaller micron filter, but that's not the case here. I also have never noticed water from draining either of the filters, so eliminating one separator would probably not be an issue. You may want to call Cummins and speak to an engineer. I would be interested in their response.

Rob

2002 Intrigue #11480

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62188
George, a common set-up on Caterpillar engines is a 30 micron primary with fuel water separator and 3 micron secondary. I have had one water in fuel event in 22,000 miles.

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62190
Lee,

Your setup is exactly what I would have expected. I'm not proud that I have owned this coach since new for going on 7 years and just started thinking about this issue when I have trouble. I have over 95,000 miles on the coach and have never had a WIF warning though that should not surprise me as the WIF warning is wired to the secondary filter.

Thanks for your reply Lee.

George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62199
I also have the same filters as below No problem

What performance problems are you having

Mike 2004 allure 31021

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62203
Mike, thanks for your reply.

Performance problems are:
1. Perceived low power
2. Reported low power on Silverleaf
3. Lots of black smoke particularly at low RPM high throttle
4. Transmission will not shift into highest appropriate gear with cruise control on but will make the final shift under manual throttle

This all started as we left Santa Fe for Taos. I bought fuel at a minor Indian Reservation truck stop just north of Santa Fe. I was driving in the company of fellow poster George Harper (Busblogger) with his identical '04 Allure Seaside. He did not buy fuel. Within 25 miles of fueling my problems began and have gotten progressively worse as we went from Taos to Durango and now at Chama, NM. I drained each of the fuel separators yesterday and found what is best described as gray and dirty water, particularly in the primary. The secondary also was gray. I drained about a quart from the filters and finaly got some more amber colored fuel.
I intend to try to buy two each FS1242 for Primary and FS1022 for secondary and change them before departing for Santa Fe Tuesday. I'll then have spares in case they are needed on the way to SF or on my way home in a week or two.

Thanks for the help.

George in Santa Fe (currently in Chama, NM) '04 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62226
hi george

what horse power does your silver leaf show mine has never peaked over 280
seems low to me

mike 2004 allure 31021

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62228
FWIW, mine peaks at 370 HP for my ISL 370. I installed my Siverleaf on my laptop and recall having to select the correct engine in the software when setting it up.

Larry, 03 Allure 30856

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62229
?
Mike,

Pardon my jumping in but I had exactly the same problem with my 2004 Allure. I spent a lot of time and money at Cummins with it on the Dyno but to no avail. Just before I left for my last trip to Cummins on the problem I checked the Silverleaf set up. My Silverleaf thought it was a Cat engine. Changed it to the correct Cummins and the Silverleaf pegged at 370 going up over the first bridge on the way. I cancelled the appointment. Of course that didn't change the fact that my Allure with a 370 hp is underpowered.

You may have same problem.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62230
i only tow a jeep, so the power seems to be just barley enough on our last trip we went from anaheim to grants pass got down to 45 in the hills

it would be nice to have a little more power

mike 2004 allure 31021

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62239
?
Mike,

Did you check what engine is set in the Silverleaf? Of course changing that will have no effect on the power. Silverleaf is an input device only. However the ISL series 8.3 liter can run at a range of from 315 hp (around there somewhere but quite low) all the way to 400 hp. The 370 can be re-chipped to bring it up to 400 hp.
I have heard all kinds of stories about the consequences from warrantee issues to you might have to upgrade the turbo to get the full benefit. I really don't know how true of false any of the stories are but it can be done. Likely someone in the group has done it. To tell you the truth I think that even 400 hp is a little on the down side of enough.
My coach will pull a 6% grade of virtually any length at a consistent 54 mph as long as it downshifts to 5 soon enough to maintain 1800 to 2000 rpm. That is the range where my Silverleaf will stay right at 370 hp. If the rpm drops much below 1800 the hp will drop and you will never regain the 54 mph until you are over the top. Riding up and come up on a 35 mph 18 wheeler and a solid line of traffic in the left lane will kill me every time. About them I would be more than happy with 45 mph. I tow an 05 Jeep Liberty and the 370 is not barely enough it is underpowered if your coach is a 40 footer.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62241
don

i will check it this weekend.

the one thing that helps us is we travel light, just weekend trips and a week or two vacation each year for now. our allure is 40 foot with a tag

are you using any brakes on your jeep

mike 2004 allure 31021

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62246

The SilverLeaf does not measure HP. When you tell the software what engine you have a file that matches the HP data the engine manufacturer supplies is acccessed. The SilverLeaf merely displays the factory HP versus whatever the throttle position is at that moment - at least that is how our system works. Try this. Modulate the throttle pedal up and down slowly while accelerating. The deeper you push the pedal the higher the HP until at 100% you read the max HP programmed, less throttle setting less HP. Actually, max HP is not reached until the proper engine rpm is reached, not throttle position - HP is calculated from torque produced and engine rpm. The indication on your screen is not a measurement.
There are ways to "measure" HP production but it requires sensors, known weight of the coach, a GPS to measure distance and speed versus the time to get there and lots and lots of setup. From a standing start such systems can estimate fairly closely what the HP is - the sensors even compensate for at least some terrain rise and fall. You can get systems to do this for a few hundred dollars at the "tuner" web sites. As a percentage of total weight a 1/2 versus full fuel tank for a DP is a small factor so it would be possible to get a fairly accurate HP value using one of these systems. But the SilverLeaf, certainly the PC based system, cannot and does not measure HP.
If your electronic throttle cannot get to 100% (a measured electrical voltage value) you will never show the full HP rating because the programmed file is not satisfied to show that value. It doesn't necessarily follow the engine is underpowered versus what was advertised. Your electronic throttle may be out of spec, need adjustment, the contacts cleaned, wrong file as noted already or ?
I'm not a programmer so contact the SilverLeaf folks for verification/denial or a better explanation.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62248
Mike,

No I do not use brakes on the Jeep. I am not promoting that just so I won't get a lot of feedback. I just get the money set aside and something else breaks. I am not worried a lot considering that the combined weight of both is right around the GVWR of the coach but where there are laws in effect most go strictly by some arbitrary weigh of the tow discounting the total weight as a factor. Beyond what each individual feels personally about it I would like someday whenever I can seem to afford it to have the breakaway protection.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046
don

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62249
Ok, then how about torque. The engine has a max torque delivered at a rpm value. I have displayed that when my Silverleaf (not PC based) didn't get there either until I told it what engine it has. Is the torque value based on a throttle voltage compared to a manufactures torque data?

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62256
Mike, I used to monitor horsepower but no longer do. I monitor torque which is also representative of horsepower. When I did monitor HP at RPM over 1,800 and full throttle I would often show near and occasionally at 400 HP.
The problem I am having now is that at low RPM(like 1,400) and wide open throttle I'll report just 850 ft/lbs where I would normally report 1150 to 1180.
I'll have new filters FS1022 and FS1242 tomorrow and I'll report back my results.
Mike, I suggest that you check how your Silverleaf is programmed. If it is set to an engine with 300 HP you would get the results you report. Be sure that it is set to ISL370 as I assume that is what you have.

Good luck to both of us.

George in Birmingham(till in Chama) '04 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62258
Mike,

I have a different engine than you, but my C-12 is rated at 425 HP and my Silverleaf regularly reports 423, occasionally 425.

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62259
Don, a small detail. The ISL is 8.9L while the ISC is 8.3L.

George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62264
Bob, my Silverleaf does not work as you describe. When I monitor HP and go to wide open throttle at low RPMs my HP displayed will not nearly approach full rated HP. I believe that the WOT signal causes the Silverleaf to compute max HP at current torque and displays the result of that calculation which you know is:

HP = T X N /5252

Where    T = Torque (lbft)
N = Speed (rpm)

Where it gets the torque number is a mystery to me.
In other words my SL will not display full rated HP until I am, at a minimum, at a RPM level that is capable of producing full rated HP.

Your mileage may vary.

George in BImringham
'04 Allure 31038
George in Birmingham
2003 Magna 6298

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62265
Bob,

And where is the Silverleaf getting the torque readings from? The throttle? Don't know if it is true, but I was told it gets the torque and HP from the Allison somehow. If not that, why not the CAT ECM?

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62269

Don,

AS far as I can determine everything is in the software taken from a table of values. Probably also through the electronic throttle position. When safe to do so slowly pump the throttle while accelerating. If the values change exactly with the throttle that is probably the cas as well.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62270

They could be getting smarter at the programming.
Do you have the PC version or box or built-in. I would expect the possibility that as you go up in value with their products they might include some of the sensors needed to calculate a value. The JIB box for the PC based system just contains a chip or two.

Ask Silverleaf.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62271

Rich:

I don't know. As stated in previous message tonight as you up the model range for their products it is entirely possible to add sensors.
But to be actually doing something active yuor coach weight would need to be programmed in. In the absence of somem input from the company I don't have any faith HP or torque mean anything other than what is programmed into the firmware.
And I am NOT knocking the product. It is usefull as heck, I love it (on my second one) and it gives lots of useful information not otherwise easily obtained while driving. But I am pretty sure it is not a rolling onboard engine dyno.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62278
George, You are right but you have to admit that if there is such a thing as an expert at typo's I got to be right in there. They are always in the worst places. I have owned both the ISC and the ISL.

Don Seager
2004 Allure

Re: HP was 2004 Allure Fuel Filters

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 62282
?
Bob,

My Silverleaf dash panel mount works just as George describes. I am not sure who in the design of the method you describe was able to justify that electronic throttle voltage values correlate in some way to HP but there must be something to it. If one believes that the method is valid then taking a value into a lookup table of throttle voltage vs hp does come up with HP to be displayed. It may in fact be as valid as the many other ways of displaying HP as none can display instantaneous HP to a human. All values must be captured at a given interval and then either use it or capture a series at an interval and integrate them over a period to display the average value. So in the end all methods of measuring anything that has a constantly varying value uses some method that detracts from the absolute accuracy. It is just a matter of choosing one that suits the needs at had.
A Dyno test does not measure engine HP at the flywheel but rather at the rear wheels. The drive train losses must be estimated to attempt to come up with the engine HP. I have had a Dyno test done twice and all that was said is that the engine was performing within an acceptable range as long as the HP measured at the rear wheels was within 75 to 85 percent of the engines name tag rating. Nothing in my two experiences with it was stated at a closer accuracy than that.
All measurement methods will have a determinable percent accuracy that can be quoted across the full range. I do not believe that my Silverleaf works off of electronic throttle voltage simply because it doesn't appear that way to me. That doesn't mean however that it doesn't but even if it did I would have to see the accuracy data before I could condemn it. Personally I could not say that I had no faith in HP or Torque to mean anything other than what is programmed into the firmware because an external value is involved.
Truth is that all of the gauges in our coaches are really intended to spot relative changes compared to the norm. Certainly something is wrong when the Silverleaf never displays above 280 HP for a 370 HP engine regardless of method used in the measurement. As has been mentioned it likely is that the Silverleaf has been set to the wrong engine and Mike is going to check that when he can.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046