04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

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04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

August 09, 2010, 02:44:17 pm

Georges recent thread on filters, brought up a few posts about the ISL 370's power. Some comments about it being somewhat less then desired?

1) I see no after market upgrades for the 04 ISL 370. From Banks, or anyother manufacturer. Have I missed them in my surfing?
2) The 'reflash' of the ISL 370 to the 400 range (as I understand it, increasing HP and changing Torque curve band) is both expensive, and does not provide much real world change. Remaining capped at 1250lbs torque. Anyone in this gang pay for this reflash, and how is it in real world usage?

Our rolling coach should come in at under 39K lbs for 'pulling demand' (includes our CRV toad, 40' two slides, with tag)). While the coach is not a 'rocket pocket', our first shake down trip I felt the power was 'adequate'. We have a trip in September that will hit some mountain driving, and from reading some posts along the way, I should expect to see 40-45MPH ranges when climbing some hills?
I'm not out to win any races, so I can live with that, if needed. I also do not mind tweaking for more power. Way out of warranty, hear the Allison 3000 is capable of handling some more torque if your 'easy off the line' (Just people talking, no one from Allison, but suspect they had baked in a 'safety edge margin' on top of the 1250Lbs rating?)

Just wondering what others have seen, or learned along the way? Thanks,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017 40'

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #1 – August 09, 2010, 10:51:00 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 62257

Greg, when my coach was new I had a fair number of Cummins problems. Toward the middle of the second year of warranty the problems were all sorted out. I asked Cummins to comp me the reflash to 400HP which they did.
The results? Not worth a penny. A comparison of the torque curves between the 370 and the 400 show roughly the follwing:

Low end torque for the 370 is very slightly better than the 400 Mid-range torque for the two is about equal High RPM torque for the 400 is sightly better than the 370
So, for the time you are pushing to the top of a grade at 1900 RPM or higher you'll get better performance. All other times, not so much.
On the subject of performance, the ISL 370 makes the Seaside 33 footer a rocket ship.

George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #2 – October 30, 2010, 04:45:27 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64903

I've done a bit more research, and have some emails out to a few kind souls with more DP knowledge on my findings. Thought I'd ask if anyone here has any of these:

Brazel's RV and Redland Trucks
-AFE Air Box and Filter

-Aero Turbine 5050xl Exhaust Muffler The two above should not hurt the engine, and many reports of increases in power, with a bit more noise. Some aslo report a mild MPG improvement.

Propane Injection (two or three different kits) -I would only consider this if I had a driver on/off button. And I would set it at the lower end of the juice spectrum. Would not use if all of the time, only when pulling grades where I need just a bit more. Watching temp's of engine and trans, and having the off button if needed.
Many reports of good increase in power, and improvements in MPG. MPG is not my concern, it's the extra power for hill climbing.
My thoughts are to try the AFE Air Box and Filter, with the Aero Turbine exhaust muffler first. If it does not provide the extra power I'm seeking for the hills, then I 'could' follow up with the propane injection. (Could, as I want to search more about risks to the engine.) The Allison 3000 should be able to safely handle the modest increases to torque all of these are talking about. And the propane injection, would be used only while in motion, so less strain on the unit.
OK - So, input please. Any other options I've missed? Any 'don't do that'. I'm really not trying to make this a pocket rocket, and it is not about being first up the hill. It's about just a little extra safety for climbing hills. I'm pleased with the ISL, and knew it did not have the push of the bib block CAT. I drove a 2004 Intrique with the big CAT, and only give it about a 10% useable power increase over the ISL. It has all the extra weight of the engine, and 4000 trans, plus bigger differentials and axles that it has to carry, so much of the extra power is used for that. The ISL, is also a much lighter medium size block, so that helps to. I also drove a 40' non tag Allure ISL, and it had very close to the same get up and go as the bigger 42' CAT 505.

OK - Long post, it's my nature:)!
TIA,
Smitty

04 Allure 40' tag, 31017, ISL 370

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #3 – October 30, 2010, 05:22:37 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64904

It's been along time, but F=ma. A= acceleration and thats a geometric function. Just because you

double your Torque doesn't mean you double your acceleration. If everything were perfect you might

get there in the 30%+ l faster. So a 10 to 15% increase is about all you are ever going to get. The

tranny can't handle much more than a 425 ISL and that has to be detuned while shifting and at higher

rpm's . Your option is to buy a Newmar or some other coaches with light weight frames and aluminum

bodies, in order to shed weight and buy as short as coach as possible.
Foretravel used to make a 36 ft

U320 with an ISM that would run. And they make a 40' with an ISx 650 if you have the coin.

Remember learn to lay back and enjoy the scenery, half the fun is getting there. TWI 2004 Intrigue
11731 42' ISL

Original Message:
-----------------

From: GSmith77_7 gsmith77_7@... Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:45:17 -0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

I've done a bit more research, and have some emails out to a few kind souls with more DP knowledge on

my findings. Thought I'd ask if anyone here has any of these:

Brazel's RV and Redland Trucks
-AFE Air Box and Filter

-Aero Turbine 5050xl Exhaust Muffler The two above should not hurt the engine, and many reports of increases in power, with a bit more

noise. Some aslo report a mild MPG improvement.

Propane Injection (two or three different kits) -I would only consider this if I had a driver on/off button. And I would set it at the lower end of the

juice spectrum. Would not use if all of the time, only when pulling grades where I need just a bit more.

Watching temp's of engine and trans, and having the off button if needed.
Many reports of good increase in power, and improvements in MPG. MPG is not my concern, it's the

extra power for hill climbing.

My thoughts are to try the AFE Air Box and Filter, with the Aero Turbine exhaust muffler first. If it does

not provide the extra power I'm seeking for the hills, then I 'could' follow up with the propane injection.
(Could, as I want to search more about risks to the engine.) The Allison 3000 should be able to safely

handle the modest increases to torque all of these are talking about. And the propane injection, would

be used only while in motion, so less strain on the unit.
OK - So, input please. Any other options I've missed? Any 'don't do that'.
I'm really not trying to make

this a pocket rocket, and it is not about being first up the hill. It's about just a little extra safety for climbing hills. I'm pleased with the ISL, and knew it did not have the push of the bib block CAT. I drove

a 2004 Intrique with the big CAT, and only give it about a 10% useable power increase over the ISL. It

has all the extra weight of the engine, and 4000 trans, plus bigger differentials and axles that it has to carry, so much of the extra power is used for that. The ISL, is also a much lighter medium size block, so

that helps to. I also drove a 40' non tag Allure ISL, and it had very close to the same get up and go as
the bigger 42' CAT 505.

OK - Long post, it's my nature:)!
TIA,
Smitty

04 Allure 40' tag, 31017, ISL 370

Quote from: GSmith77_7

> Georges recent thread on filters, brought up a few posts about the ISL

370's power. Some comments

about it being somewhat less then desired?

Quote

> 1) I see no after market upgrades for the 04 ISL 370. From Banks, or

anyother manufacturer. Have I
missed them in my surfing?

Quote

>

2) The 'reflash' of the ISL 370 to the 400 range (as I understand it,

increasing HP and changing Torque

curve band) is both expensive, and does not provide much real world change.
Remaining capped at

1250lbs torque. Anyone in this gang pay for this reflash, and how is it in real world usage?

Quote

>

Our rolling coach should come in at under 39K lbs for 'pulling demand'

(includes our CRV toad, 40'

two slides, with tag)). While the coach is not a 'rocket pocket', our first shake down trip I felt the power

was 'adequate'. We have a trip in September that will hit some mountain driving, and from reading some

posts along the way, I should expect to see 40-45MPH ranges when climbing some hills?

Quote

>

I'm not out to win any races, so I can live with that, if needed. I also

do not mind tweaking for more

power. Way out of warranty, hear the Allison 3000 is capable of handling some more torque if your 'easy

off the line' (Just people talking, no one from Allison, but suspect they had baked in a 'safety edge

margin' on top of the 1250Lbs rating?)

Quote

>

Just wondering what others have seen, or learned along the way? > Thanks,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017 40'

mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #4 – October 30, 2010, 05:27:31 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64905

Smitty,

It is hard to address the issue when you define it in terms like 'It's about just a little extra safety for climbing hills.'. What does that mean is some measurable numbers like the best I can do on a 6% grade is 55 mph and I would like

At least then someone might be able to work out how much increase in horsepower or torque would provide that improvement.
I had a 2003 non-tag 40ft Allure with an ISL 370 and now have a 40ft 2004 Allure with the same engine. Yes the power and performance was better with the non-tag but there is also a big down side in my opinion The 2003 had a usable load rating of 2800 lbs but the 2004 with a tag has a usable load rating of 10,400 lbs. That's an increase of a little less that 4 ton. Also the tag adds a big improvement in stability and handling. The coach feels like it is very adequate for the job at hand except racing up grades.
My coach will provide a consistent 54mph climbing a 6% grade when I anticipate the grade by increasing speed as I approach the bottom. The ISL will be maxed out at 370 hp @ about 2000 rpm. If something gets in my way and I drop to 45 mph I will never get back to 54 at least on that grade.
I would expect you are experiencing something in the same range as our coaches are close in number.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #5 – October 30, 2010, 05:52:53 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64906

Don makes a good point on the question of safety. How about turning the question around. What's unsafe?
I see a lot of trucks, going slower than me with their flashers on. I assume the slower trucks are doing 45 MPH or slower . . . it's that a law, or common practice?
So if truckers are going 45 or less and we see it all the time, an RV at 45 or less with flashers on should not surprise any other driver.

So again, what's unsafe? Stalling, overheating, rolling backward?

Maybe its 'uncomfortable' not 'unsafe.'

Lee
--

Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #6 – October 30, 2010, 05:58:44 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64907

CMarshall - Thanks! I sure do plan to relax on the road, I enjoy the journey as much as the destinations... I understand your response.
Two more bits of info: 1) We're dialing this rig in for the long term, we feel it's a keeper, and searched along time before buying this rig. 2) We felt 40' was the smallest we would go with a tag, something I wanted for added safety and CCC.
I'm very pleased with the first big trip for us in this rig, a 3100 mile trip. The coach runs well, handles very well, and is comfortable. I had no problem with power everywhere but on hill climbing. Sure like the MPG:)!. On hill climbing, it's not the speed itself, it's the safety of having more reserve power.
On this trip we climbed a grade coming into Jackson hole from off of I15. We got in a situation where we were pulling up on a group of 6-7 trucks and one RV. They were all in the right lane, doing about 40mph. I was maintaining between 50-55mph, so I pulled into the left lane (no one coming from behind), and started to pass the 'convoy'. Got all the way up to the third truck from the front, when he pulled out into the left lane. I had to use brakes, to keep from nudging his rear end. This brought me down to below 40mph. As luck would have it, the incline also increased in this section. I could not pick up any more speed. I had no room to pull into the right. I did now have two cars behind me. This went on for just under 10 mins, which felt quite a bit longer:)! I had my indicator on for a full two mins to try and move back into the right lane, but understandably, the other truckers (I actually back down some, hoping to pull back in line one or two back - no going) wanted to maintain their speeds. I'm sure by the time we cleared the grade, the now line of 8-10 + cars, must have felt "A stinkin rude RV driver!".
I got over it, and know it was just one of those things. I felt I was prudent and safe in passing this convoy, and would have been able to pull the hill if I had not dropped speed when the 'gent' pulled out in front of me.
So to me, it is not getting to the top first. It is having the extra grunt (and I don't think I need that much more), to again pick up some speed on the hills. I set the cruise and very seldom see above 67mph, and that is on the long stretches with speed limits between 70-80mph. In California, I set the speed to 57-58, with the toad, as the limit is 55mph (which I don't like, and continue to write Sacramento on to change back 65 for RV's with toads.)
Don't know if any of this makes a difference on my request for input on these or other options for more power, but being a newer member of the board, I do like for my board members to get a feel for where I'm coming from.

Best,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #7 – October 30, 2010, 06:30:21 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64910

Smitty,

I also have an 04Allure with an ISL8.9/370. My coach is a Seaside and although I wouldn't say it's a "rocket" as someone in this thread suggested, it certainly has met my expectations. I had a similar experience to yours climbing over the Appalachians in West Virginia. It is a long 6%+ grade and if I don't get cut off like you did I can maintain 55 mph. I remember an E450-based class C passing me like I was standing still on the flats in North Carolina. I really smiled to myself when we blew by him on the incline, but I digress. When I did get cut off it was a struggle to get back to 45mph. I like Lee's suggestion - next time I have to slow down in that situation, I'll get in the right lane (as soon as I can) and turn on the blinkers.

Nate Richards
04 Allure 31043

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #8 – October 30, 2010, 07:09:36 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64913

Don/Lee - I was typing my long response with more info to CMarshall as you were posting. I hope you see I'm kind of looking for what Don was talking about, sure have no problem being at the end of one lane convey at 45mph.
When I say just a bit more power, I do not see the 370 ISL needing too much more to allow some acceleration gain on hills. Sure, not 11% grades!! If I do the work myself, the costs of the AEF Filter and Aero Turbine exhaust are combined just over the cost of my front pair of Road Kings. So my thoughts was that this was a under $1K investment to check if the added breathing does give me the extra omph needed. Redland Trucks said somewhere between 85-105lbs torque gains on most applications (going from memory on this, not my notes). IRV2 board members with ISL 350-425's have provided good personal feedback. Brazel's has a good reputation, so that means something too.
On the propane injection, I still want to do more research. But, it's been used by years by many OTR and some other RV owners.
I figure if I got close to 100lbs extra torque, that is about a 7% gain over stock... My instincts is that I would notice this on those hills, as the non tag 370 Intrigue I drove, could pick back up speed. Sure, not real fast, but it was. (I test drove the same section of road, back to back, and slowed down to 40mph at the same place before trying to pick back up speed. The coach we bought, the Allure tag, reached 42mph at the top. The Intrigue was closer to 50mph. Both had about a quarter tank of fuel, and I admit I did not check water or tanks, but on the lot, would expect them to be on the lower side.

Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #9 – October 30, 2010, 08:40:46 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64921

Smitty, here's what I think:
1. Your Allison MH3000 is at the top end of its' torque limit now. If you add 100 lb ft of your you add substantial risk to the transmission
2. I would never consider a non OEM conforming air filter on a $30K diesel engine. The cost of dusting the engine is too high.

3. If you monitor the air filter minder on your coach you'll see that you have very little restriction from the filter. I don't believe that there is anything to be gained by taking this risk.

4. Cummins comped me an upgrade to 400 HP after several early ownership problems. It doesn't increase torque at all. It does change the torque curve some but mostly in the upper rev range where we rarely drive.

5 and last. I would buy this stuff the very day the manufacturer had an independent test lab dyno the before and after. I just don't have much faith in seat of the pants reports.

Good luck with your analysis.

George in Birmingham
'04 Allure 31038

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #10 – October 30, 2010, 08:56:26 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64930

I agree with George. Smitty, make sure your engine has what it needs, clean filters, correct fuel pressure, correct turbo operation- boost pressure. Then drive it awhile and give it some time. I have seen the inside of diesels that more HP has been forced out. The repairs have been expensive.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #11 – October 30, 2010, 11:56:42 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64936

Seems like every time we tried to go to Prescott AZ from either the north or south we would experience

something similar. The Grape vine in California is another location where the same issues arise or Wolf

Creek pass in Colorado, But we all get there eventually. Now think about this I had as 36' 98 Allure that

was one of the last 10 built so I had a 330 ISC and when the injection pump failed Cumins cranked it up

to 350 even though the tranny was right on the edge, 3060. Well when I got the Intrigue with the 400

ISL it was heavier, how much well about 9,000 lbs going down the road.
43,000 with Odessey and

34,000 with Saturn 300. Yet the Intrigue gets better fuel milage and can climb a 6% grade 4 mph faster.

Now 50 hp isn't the difference. If you'll go back and check the old Allison adds in FMCA magazine

about 2000 you'll read the 3000 transmission is 15% more efficient than the 3060. How's that, well

transynd for one, better materials on the bands and a better ECM I was told. I tried following a guy in a 42 Magna with a ISX 650 between Las Cruces and Socorro NM. He was running 72 to 75, well there was

no way, especially in the steep dips, he was gone in a cloud of dust. But he stopped for fueland I beat

him to Durango Colorado by an Hour.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Original Message:
-----------------

From: GSmith77_7 gsmith77_7@... Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:09:24 -0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Don/Lee - I was typing my long response with more info to CMarshall as you were posting. I hope you

see I'm kind of looking for what Don was talking about, sure have no problem being at the end of one
lane convey at 45mph.

When I say just a bit more power, I do not see the 370 ISL needing too much more to allow some

acceleration gain on hills. Sure, not 11% grades!! If I do the work myself, the costs of the AEF Filter and

Aero Turbine exhaust are combined just over the cost of my front pair of Road Kings. So my thoughts

was that this was a under $1K investment to check if the added breathing does give me the extra omph

needed. Redland Trucks said somewhere between 85-105lbs torque gains on most applications (going

from memory on this, not my notes). IRV2 board members with ISL 350-425's have provided good

personal feedback. Brazel's has a good reputation, so that means something too.

On the propane injection, I still want to do more research. But, it's been used by years by many OTR and
some other RV owners.

I figure if I got close to 100lbs extra torque, that is about a 7% gain over stock... My instincts is that I would notice this on those hills, as the non tag 370 Intrigue I drove, could pick back up speed. Sure, not real fast, but it was. (I test drove the same section of road, back to back, and slowed down to 40mph at

the same place before trying to pick back up speed. The coach we bought, the Allure tag, reached

42mph at the top. The Intrigue was closer to 50mph. Both had about a quarter tank of fuel, and I admit

I did not check water or tanks, but on the lot, would expect them to be on the lower side.

Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

Quote from: GSmith77_7

> I've done a bit more research, and have some emails out to a few kind

souls with more DP knowledge

on my findings. Thought I'd ask if anyone here has any of these:

Quote

>

Brazel's RV and Redland Trucks
-AFE Air Box and Filter

-Aero Turbine 5050xl Exhaust Muffler > The two above should not hurt the engine, and many reports of increases

in power, with a bit more

noise. Some aslo report a mild MPG improvement.

Quote

>

Propane Injection (two or three different kits) > -I would only consider this if I had a driver on/off button. And I would

set it at the lower end of the

juice spectrum. Would not use if all of the time, only when pulling grades where I need just a bit more.

Watching temp's of engine and trans, and having the off button if needed.

Quote

>

Many reports of good increase in power, and improvements in MPG. MPG is

not my concern, it's the

extra power for hill climbing.

Quote

>

My thoughts are to try the AFE Air Box and Filter, with the Aero Turbine

exhaust muffler first. If it

does not provide the extra power I'm seeking for the hills, then I 'could' follow up with the propane

injection. (Could, as I want to search more about risks to the engine.) The Allison 3000 should be able

to safely handle the modest increases to torque all of these are talking about. And the propane

injection, would be used only while in motion, so less strain on the unit.

Quote

>

OK - So, input please. Any other options I've missed? Any 'don't do

that'. I'm really not trying to make this a pocket rocket, and it is not about being first up the hill. It's about just a little extra safety for climbing hills. I'm pleased with the ISL, and knew it did not have the push of the bib block CAT. I drove

a 2004 Intrique with the big CAT, and only give it about a 10% useable power increase over the ISL. It

has all the extra weight of the engine, and 4000 trans, plus bigger differentials and axles that it has to carry, so much of the extra power is used for that. The ISL, is also a much lighter medium size block, so

that helps to. I also drove a 40' non tag Allure ISL, and it had very close to the same get up and go as
the bigger 42' CAT 505.

Quote

>

OK - Long post, it's my nature:)! > TIA,
Smitty

04 Allure 40' tag, 31017, ISL 370 >

> -

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #12 – October 31, 2010, 02:16:56 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64949

Hey gang - thanks for all of the input. It is exactly what I was looking for, the experience of those whom have more time with DP's.
I think I'm going to alter my approach. Just going to try the Aero Turbine to start with. Though I've never had a problem with K&N type air filters (many cars, trucks, and was on our 99 V10 F53 as part of the full Banks Package (came this way when I bought the rig). And, I do think they help in the breathing (less restriction on the intake), coupled with the exhaust side (headers and exhaust). My perceptions is that 80% of the breathing better gains, are on the exhaust end (especially with the Banks systems headers). As this is only the AeroTurbine muffler, I don't expect as dramatic of gains.
From reading on many boards, and I do provide alot of credibility to Brazil's, I doubt the AFE Filter and Box combo that Brazil's recommends, would be any less 'filtering' efficient then the standard Cummins filters. I also think that combo of the better box and AFE filter provide some reductions in restriction of intake air flow, and a bit cooler air.
On reporting dyno's here is a quote from Jon at Brazil's on a before/after dyno on a ISC 8.3. Talking with Brazil's, they see a bit more out of the ISL 8.9.
Copy Start:

Banks does not have a muffler, but AeroTurbine makes one that works very well on the diesel pushers. We dyno test them when installed at the shop and usually see big gains in torque on the tune of 60-85 ft. lb. tq. and about 35 HP. One of the best and safest improvements you can for economy and power on a diesel pusher! ___

Jon Brazel - Engine Performance Technician Brazel's RV Performance Center & RV Park Copy End:

So, I'm leaning now towards the AeroTurbine. See what that does by itself. I'll keep the AFE box & filter on hold for now.

Still researching propane injection.
On the Allison. I had conversations with a San Diego tech that has been working on Allison's on many applications for 25 years. His comment was that especially in Motor Homes, Allison left a 15-20% safety margin on their torque ratings. He has seeen many 3000 with Synthetic fluids, coupled with mod'd engines putting out 1350+ lbs of torque. In his opinion, safely. (Yes, a risk, and not Allison approved, but it passes my filters as being realistic about the 'safety' margin.)
Anyone that reads this later, I would still welcome input on all three of the ones I'm considering, or others you know of. The cautions from the gang so far, has me pulling off of the AFE Filter for now - I want real world experiences. I'm not planning on any of these mod's within the next few months, it will be early next year before I start doing any of them. (Having fun now with the wireless and phone amplifications and internal wireless routers now - learning lots!)
Just as a repeat, I'm not looking to race or be the winner in hill climbs, not important at all. I'm looking for just a bit more 'in motion' power to help on climbing hills. I remain a rookie with our rig, but so far I like everything about our Allure - we're enjoying the process of learning, as we dial this coach in for our upcoming 'permanent part timing' (on the road, 6-9 months a year is the plan, then home for major holidays and medical tune-ups!)

Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #13 – October 31, 2010, 05:52:46 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64954

I am a real fan of K&N filters. I had a 94 Explorer that was underpowered but the new air filter made a big difference. I was happy with it after making the change. Same with a 2000 Infiniti QX4. I installed one in our first coach - an E450 with Ford's V10. Both of my current cars are outfitted with them. If there was one for the 8.9ISL, I would go for it. As you note, the ability of these filters to allow more combustion air really helps.

Nate Richards
04 Allure 31043

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #14 – October 31, 2010, 07:07:09 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64956

Smitty,

I am no diesel engine expert but isn't the 370 ISL detuned to 370 hp by the ECM? The ISL can be programmed to run at a range of hp from 350 to over 400 if I remember correctly. Will you have to rechip it to be able to take advantage of the gadgets you are adding to increase hp above 370?
Right or wrong I have always been of the opinion that it is the drive train components that are the major determining factor in selecting engine hp. A 7% increase may also be a 7% increase in the stress on the drive train. Begs the question of why CC chose to limit the hp of the ISL in both your coach and mine to 370 hp with and engine that is capable of 400 plus hp. That during a time when more hp meant more sales.
I sure don't know all of the ramification of your plan but I do see a possible red flag. If I expected to have my coach last 10 years like you have stated I would make sure that I fully investigated the upgrade plans with some engine and drive train experts.
Yes I am playing the devil's advocate here but sometimes that isn't a bad thing.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #15 – October 31, 2010, 09:23:56 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64959

Compared to gasoline engines diesels consume much larger amounts of air. The 2-3 liter gas engine versus a 9 liter diesel alone is a huge difference. Considering diesels operate at wide open throttle all the time it becomes clear the amount of air compared to a small gas engine is huge. This requires a large efficient filter system to protect the engine.
If oil bath filters are so good why did the industry switch to paper? Because they are cheaper and more important, more efficient at filtering air. Somewhere I have a study comparing a GM diesel using a K&N versus factory paper system. The amount of dirt getting past the oil/cloth filter was much larger than the paper and that was comparing apples to apples. The old saying about no free lunches applies to filters that permit more air for performance. Without other modifications, for instance increasing the area of the filter to permit more filtration, more dirt will get through. The size of such a filter would make it impossible to mount in the space available for most any vehicle.
The proof in the pudding is diesel engine manufacturers can void the warranty if you use a non equivalent filter system and there is evidence of wear from dirt getting past it. I believe both Cat and Cummins have made such statements.
I run K&N products on my cars, particularly my muscle rods which see very low mileage compared to the motor coach so I am not against the product - just not on my diesel engine. It is a great performance product but not at the potential expense in this specific case.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #16 – October 31, 2010, 09:32:09 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64960

As an example the cat C9 can be had up to 600hp, maybe more, for marine applications.
For motor coaches the biggest limiting factor is heat. A boat has essentially an unlimited cooling system, a coach is limited to what it can reasonably carry with it.
If you increase the hp with something like a chip also add exhaust temperature monitoring equipment and shut down when things get too hot. What's too hot - I don't know but there have been posts on the topic on this and the Cat lists. From those who have added chips apparently the temps can rise FAST and without a gauge you have no clue.
I am an inveterate hot rodder but plan to leave my diesel alone. Others have posted great results with chip replacements - just make sure the stocker is there when you go to a dealer and beware that heat.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #17 – October 31, 2010, 10:00:20 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64964

I am a member of the Land Cruiser Association, a worldwide organization. We considered K&N filters, and I did a test on them. I put a blob of grease downstream of the K&N filter, and several dusty off road adventures later, found lots of grit in the grease. I went back to my OEM filter and gave the K&N away to a guy I did not like much. Possibly the RV model is different? On my Intrigue, the side mounted radiator kicks up tons of dirt, completely covering the batteries in their bay. I want to keep that out of my engine. The only way I would use a K&N is as a sleeve (pre filter) over the original filter, counterproductive to help increase air flow.
225,000 miles on the Land Cruiser so far, good compression and oil pressure. Oil and oil filter change every six thousand miles, dino oil, not synthetic. Synthetic lasts longer, but I like to dump the junk that accumulates between changes. New air filter every year or so. The air filter has a kinetic dust separator housing to keep some out of the filter, something I have seen only on construction or farming equipment. That is something I can support for my Cummins ISL 400.
Jack Nichols, 2003 Intrigue 11527

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #18 – November 01, 2010, 05:32:41 am

Yahoo Message Number: 64967

I put an Aero Turbine muffler on my last coach with a Cummins 300 ISL. I could feel the difference when I drove it off the lot. It might have been a little louder but, mostly just a lower (and more pleasant to my ear) note. I think you'll like it.

Greg

'03 Intrigue 11571

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #19 – November 01, 2010, 10:46:55 am

Yahoo Message Number: 64977

Don

My 04 Allure Seaside 33 ft. with the Cummins ISL came from the Country Coach factory rated 400 hp.

George Harper
04 Allure
31093

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #20 – November 01, 2010, 11:26:41 am

Yahoo Message Number: 64978

Smitty, I don't think the mods you are considering are going to help you with the situation you described below. Talk to any trucker and they will tell you that once you lose the speed on a grade you won't get it back. Diesel engines are momentum engines. Once you get them going they will keep going. Once you slow down they don't accelerate like a gas engine. Our coach has a 525HP Cat and weighs 46000 loaded. It runs up most 6% grades at 50 but if I have to slow like you, I don't much speed back until I crest the hill.

Bob

'05 Intrigue 11872

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #21 – November 01, 2010, 02:18:19 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64987

George & Don,

Very interesting - the '04 Allure brochure I have indicates they all came with ISL's rated at 370 hp, regardless of floor plan. I thought the Intrigues came with 400 hp ISL's.

Nate Richards
04 Allure 31043

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #22 – November 01, 2010, 02:32:14 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64988

Thanks Bob,

The little hill I slowed down and then started back up again on in San Diego (52E, heading over to Santee). Was not near 6% grade. The non tag Intrique ISL was able to gain back speed, but the tag ISL in my Allure coach, could not. So I was thinking that just a little more omph would make a difference.
I'm running at about 39K lbs, when towing our CRV. Compared to yor 46K lbs with the Big CAT. If your not picking up speed on the 6% grades, I then doubt if my Allure with the Aero Turbine would do any better. At most, I'd see 1300lbs torque, probably closer to 1275.

To All,

One of the nice thing about this board, is the hands on experiences and info sharing. I sure appreciate the input so far.
Will still keep researching, but Bob's posts is making me think that the small amount of extra power, will not make a noticeable difference climbing the steeper grades.
My experience on the last trip, is something that could have still take place even with more power, as the variables don't always match up. Sometimes, people are just going to have to wait, no matter what...

I'll keep learning as I go, and researching.

Thanks again for all of the input.
Best,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #23 – November 01, 2010, 02:43:30 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64989

Nate - Take this with a grain of salt. But, I was told by one gent that has owned 5 CC's over the year, and had personal relationships with the CC gang. That sometimes when a customer would order a Allure, they could snag a chassis from the intrique line, as they are the same chassis. Especially towards the end of the 04 year. Though I've never seen a Allure with the optional CAT, I have ran into a few 04 Allures with the ISL 400 in them. I assumed these were Intrique chassis pulled over to support the Allure custom order.
Not worth anything, but shared what this gent said. I do agree I don't see anything in the literature about ISL 400's being available as an option. Just like with the ISL350 to ISL370 to ISL400 of those vintages of coaches, many were using the engine HP to further distinquish the lines betwee entry/middle/high coaches.
I could see for the order of a custom coach, the 'borrowing' of the ISL 400 Intrique chassis...

Some how the got into several rigs.
Best,
Smitty

Re: 04 Allure ISL 8.9 370 - Scotty would say 'More power?'

Reply #24 – November 01, 2010, 02:52:03 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 64991

George and Nate,

CC seldom made these kind of upgrades consistent with a model year. Practically the only thing that can be tagged to a model year is the body style and even then there are some end of model year or beginning of the model year that appear to be a hybrid of both with names like Special Edition, 5th Avenue or Bob Lee Special.
The 400 ISL first appeared in the Intrigue with a transition for the Allure late in the 04 model year. With the rate at which CC introduced changes during any given model year it was about impossible for them to keep their brochures current.
Note that George's 04 Allure is 47 coaches newer then mine and 50 newer than Nate's.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

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