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Outage on 30 Amp service

Yahoo Message Number: 66929
This online community has been so amazingly supportive as we get acquainted with our coach. Thank you!

Maybe someone has a suggestion on this problem:
We're on our 2nd outing in our CC. Our 1st outing was on 50 amp service at the park. This time we got a space with 30 amp service. Main breakers kept shutting power down. All would be fine for about 2 seconds, then "click," main breakers would drop out. I would then dutifully check everything including sources of power draw, power up the coach and 2 seconds later, "click," main drops.
Short solution was to move to a 50 amp space resulting in no problems since then. A fifth wheel rig took our place at the old 30 amp space and has been there for four days with no problems at all.
In my reading it seemed that the problem might be under-voltage on the old site, causing the surge protector to shut down, but the fifth wheel doesn't seem affected.

Any ideas on how to isolate the problem?
Second, another coach owner said the majority of sites they find around the country are 30 amp. Is that true?

Thanks for any suggestions!

Ron Wilbur

04 Intrigue OVTS #11799

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66931
Hi Ron,

We definitely need 50AMP service to use our coach. We can limp by on 30AMP provided we only use one A/C unit and do not cook with the advantium. I would imagine your coach is the same.
We have had no problem finding RV parks with 50AMP service in our travels all across the country. I would recommend buying the "Big Rigs Best Bets" book http://rvbookstore.com/shop/detail.aspx?m=2&p=509 and checking out parks at

http://rvparkreviews.com/ These reviews let you know if the park has 50AMP available and whether or not they are big rig accessible.

Best regards,
Marta

07 Allure 31501

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66933
Hi Ron. 30 AMP service is not uncommon, especially at state and county parks, so you do need to get to the source of the 'problem.'
Here is a quick and dirty troubleshooting list that should get you started . . . I'm sure others will have more to say.
* When you plug in, you should monitor what your surge protector and main panel of amps/voltage readouts is saying to confirm they are within acceptable limits?
* Be sure you are not pushing the 30 AMP ceiling with too much stuff on. Get familar with the list of amps needed for each type of appliance, etc.
* When you first plug in, your coach batteries may be drawing a lot of power to recharge. Perhaps you have batteries in less than top shape. How old are they? Also, you can set your Inverter to hold down the battery charge rate.
* Sometimes, when on a 30 amp post, you can reduce problems by flipping off the 20 amp outlet.

--

Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13

Author of 'RVers BEST PUBLIC CAMPGROUNDS' Find it at https://www.createspace.com/3459109

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66934
Ron, Marta has some good book suggestions. You might also check my book 'RVers Best Public Campgrounds,' also available at the RVBookStore. It lists the AMP service for all the Public Campgrounds in the book.
I would contend, however, that 50 AMPs is not a must for our coaches, as all the Dry Campers in the group would argue.

Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13

Author of 'RVers BEST PUBLIC CAMPGROUNDS'

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66935
I had something similar happen. The cause was that I had been running my AC's using my generator set and when shut down I happened to do it when the AC's were not cycling on and I simply turned the generator off leaving the AC's and the thermostat on. We stopped at a friend's home and plugged in to 15 amp power using adapters with the shore cord so as to run the fridge and battery charger, etc on AC. Of course as soon as the thermostat called for cooling and tried to start the AC's the home's circuit breaker popped. This happened so fast that I though there was something wrong with the home's wiring but after trying a couple different circuits in the home I happened to be standing under one of the AC's while somebody reset the home's circuit breaker and heard the AC just begin to cycle on before the home's circuit breaker popped.
As I said it happened so fast I wouldn't have noticed it if hadn't been standing right under the AC.
This may not be your problem since you say you can hear the main breakers "click" out. You don't state whether it's the coach breaker or the park breaker/ For the circumstance above it would have to be the park breaker.
Check to make sure your thermostat is not set to use the AC's (heating or cooling) and is off.

Jim M

'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL 400

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66936
If you are on thirty amp service, then you can only run 1 air at a time. Make sure the floor heat is off, the batteries up to full charge etc. Also turn off most of the Quartz lamps in the ceiling and use the Florescent fixtures in the occupied area of the coach only. Turn off the electric element in the Hydro-hot... You may have to turn off the one air to use the GE advantium oven. If you are in cool weather then you can turn on the hydro-hot heating element and the floor heat as you are not using the air. You might want to consider getting some of the silver insulation with the bubble plastic for the front windows and the window over the bed. By covering just those two areas you will cut your hydro-hot usage in half. You may also have to run the Refer on LP to further lower electrical consumption. If I turn off everything except for two airs, I can run both at low speed if the voltage is over 120 VAC.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66937

If you watch the amperage draw the amount going to charge the house batteries the first hour or so after a day traveling is quite high - particularly if you are on 30A.
We usually watch until the amps drop to just a few before adding more appliances.

50A site avoids the problem of course.

Bob (rthandren@...)
'05 Inspire 51178

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66942
Ron,

I don't know what the climate is where you are so I'm just going to guess your not running the a/c. My best guess is that the battery charger is drawing so many amps that if you turn on anything that draws any current your over 30 amps. You have 3 1/2 times more current available when your on a 50 amp service than on a 30 amp. You can use your remote panel for you charger/inverter and limit the amount of bulk charge you allow your charger to use. Which is a good idea anyway. It is best for your batteries if you limit them to 8/10 amps each which will reduce the heat in your batteries during recharging. Many of the applications out there are all electric and have more batteries on board therefore allowing a larger overall bulk charge rate without boiling your batteries. Most charger/inverters will give you a larger bulk charge than what is best for longevity of your batteries. If you set the remote like your on a lower amperage service it will limit the amount of charge to your batteries and therefore draw less amps from your shore power. I leave mine set at Kevin Burns

00 Affinity, #5865

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66943
Ron,

I have had the experience of the "COACH" not liking the 30 AMP service, simply put, not letting the power into your coach. This normally happens when you have a 30 AMP GFGI at the pedestal. The "work-a round" is to have a 50 AMP to 30 AMP adapter and disable your ground going into the pedestal by cutting it off or wiring one yourself and not attaching the ground to the 50 AMP side, I have found this at some state parks.
You are limited to the AMPs you can draw with 30AMP. 50AMP service is actually two separate 50AMP legs being fed into your coach for a total of 100 AMPS, so as you can see, you are limited to the amount of power that you can draw.

I hope that this helps.

Dan Nigro

08 45' Intrigue 12233

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66944
Kevin,

I know what you are thinking but you are not saying it quite right. You have 30 amps available on a 30 amp service and 50 amps available on a 50 amp service. The difference is that the 50 amps is at a voltage of 240 volts while the 30 amp is at 120 volts. The net result is that 50 amps at 240 volts provides 4 times the amount of power (watts not amps) as 30 amps at 120 volts.
Yup the battery charger is very often the culprit in blowing 30 a breakers when you first arrive. I agree with setting the charge rate low when on shore power particularly 30 amps but when charging with the generator, which can handle the load, it might be more economical to boost the charge rate a bit.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66945
This is not correct. In a 50 amp service, there are two 50 amp circuits each with the 120 volts for a total of 100 amps or 12,000 watts fed to the coach. If you measure voltage across the two circuits, yes you will measure 240 volts. If a 240 volt potential was applied to the coach bad things will happen. That it the reason you cannot plug your coach into a 240 volt electric dryer plug at your house.
In a 30 amp service, you will only have 3600 watts so you can see there is a huge difference.
Total up the wattage of all the appliances you have running. When you get an electric heater, electric water heater element(if you have one), the microwave, and the TV all on at once, you are over the 3600 supplied by 30 amps. The battery charger is not the culprit here.
I suggest going to the following website and read about 30 and 50 amp circuits. It will explain everything. http://www.myrv.us/electric/
Don

'02 Intrigue #11427
'02 Intrigue #11427

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66948
Don the 30 amp service is 30 amps at 120 volts. The 50 amp service is effectively 50 amps at 120 volts on each leg , or 100 amps of use at 120 volts . The red to white wires are 50 amps at 120 volts, and the black to white wire is 50 amps at 120 volts equaling 100 amps useable versus 30 amps useable at 120 volts

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66950
Don,

I agree with your description of 12,000 vs. 3600 watts. I was actually wrong in what I fat finger typed as it should have been 3 1/3 in lieu of 3 1/2 times. And It would probably be a good idea to turn off the electric element in the water heater if you have propane option as well if your on 30 amp service. However I disagree you on the battery charger not being the culprit. My charger will draw close to 20 amps on it's own if I don't regulate it down. I don't think it is the only cause but it could be using 2/3's of his available power. I understand though what Don Seager is saying about the generator using less fuel charging the batteries at full tilt (Charging them in a shorter time) but I use Lead acid batteries and Interstate Batteries suggested to me that I not let them charge at over 8 to 10 amps for battery life. I also get acid splattering and increased corrosion in my battery bays if I charge full tilt. I think most RV'ers that hate lead acid batteries do so because they over Bulk rate charge them causing evaporation and corrosion while increasing battery maintance and reducing battery life.
Kevin Burns

00 Affinity #5865

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66952
Wow! You are an awesome group of folks. In less than a day you have given me so much great information on this issue. I can see that I have so much yet to learn.
Thank you! And my bride thanks you, as well.
Is it safe to say that it will always be a bit iffy, and require some judicious energy management, when we stay in a 30 amp site?

Ron Wilbur

04 Intrigue #11799

snip//
Don,

Quote
I agree with your description of 12,000 vs. 3600 watts. I was actually wrong in what I fat finger typed as it should have been 3 1/3 in lieu of 3 1/2 times. And It would probably be a good idea to turn off the electric element in the water heater if you have propane option as well if your on 30 amp service. However I disagree you on the battery charger not being the culprit. My charger will draw close to 20 amps on it's own if I don't regulate it down. I don't think it is the only cause but it could be using 2/3's of his available power. I understand though what Don Seager is saying about the generator using less fuel charging the batteries at full tilt (Charging them in a shorter time) but I use Lead acid batteries and Interstate Batteries suggested to me that I not let them charge at over 8 to 10 amps for battery life. I also get acid splattering and increased corrosion in my battery bays if I charge full tilt. I think most RV'ers that hate lead acid batteries do so because they over Bulk rate charge them causing evaporation and corrosion while increasing battery maintance and reducing battery life.
Kevin Burns

00 Affinity #5865

//

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66955
Is it safe to say that it will always be a bit iffy, and require some judicious energy management, when we stay in a 30 amp site?

Dear Ron,

You are absolutely correct IMHO in the above statement :-)!

Best regards,
Marta

07 Allure 31501

Re: charge amp regulation

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66958
Excuse the ignorance but I have a Trace 2500 Watt inverter w/remote and I don't see any option in the setup mode that allows me to specifically control the amperage of the charger - just an option to select a percentage of the maximum charge rate which I believe is 100 amps. Does selecting a reduced percentage proportionately reduce the charge amperage for all all three stages as well as the 120 VAC draw? I figured the default "max" was the usual one to use. Does setting it at less than max reduce the max amperage during all three charge stages as well as increasing the time to float?

Jim M

'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL 400

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66959
Now I'll add my 2 cents too. When we pull into a campground with 30 amps, BEFORE I connect, I go into the 2 inverter panels and dial-down the input capacity for both inverters to 10 amps each or I have even dialed them lower if I knew I was going to need more electric for things like A/C or water heaters. Then I plug in the coach. This limits my inverters to draw no more than 10 amps each and still leaves 10 amps for other non-inverter items. It also means that I have to watch when I turn on the electric water heaters and will only be able to turn on one of the 2 heaters at a time usually. Also, we have a volts-amps-cycles read-out right over the front entry door. THis I monitor very carefully when first arriving at a campground. Yes, you do have to know a lot about volts and amps and your motorhome's wiring configuration. Like which appliances draw their electric from the inverter system and which draw their electric directly from the pedestal. No one ever said it was easy, but once you know your vehicle, it's pretty easy.

bill n barb, poconos of pa, 1998 cc prevost 40' xl #30365

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66962
I agree with the previous posts, the most important thing for us is to turn the max inverter draw on both inverters down before we plug in, to 10 amps each so the charger does not hog all the power. Batteries are fully charged when we arrive so not needed anyway. Other than that 30 is totally manageable on our all electric coach, Marc 05 affinity #6429

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66963
I put my frige on propane when connected to 30 AMPs.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66964
Other Don, No offense intended but I will have to defend my knowledge of 120/240 volt services. It was how I made my living as a Power Distribution Engineer.
A 120/240 volt 50 amp service is rated at 50 amps on each leg at 240 volts not 120 volts. The fact that the neutral point is connected 1/2 way between the 240 volts on the transformer secondary coil is not the point. If the load is balanced between the two legs and drawing 50 amps the current in the neutral will be zero. The neutral current is always the difference between the current in the two 240 volt legs. The reason is that the 2 -50 amp currents are of instantaneous opposite polarity (not 180 degrees out of phase) and when they add together returning to the power source they effectively cancel each other leaving only the imbalance current to travel back to the source on the neutral. For there to be 100 amps anywhere on a 120/240 volt service the current on the two hot legs would have to have a difference of 100 amps. If one leg were drawing 0 amps the other leg would have to be drawing 100 amps. Clearly this would pop one of 50 amp breaker. Good thing too as the neutral current would be 100 amps and the wire size is only rated for 50 amps.
A 240 volt 50 amp properly wired RV plug always applies 240 volts to the RV. I just applies it to two separately wires section of the power distribution in the coach. Usually there are no 240 volt appliances in most coaches but you still can measure 240 volts if you measure between the 120 volt legs of two circuits that are connect to different high sides. On exception to this is one of the two AquaHot heaters that have 2 electric elements. They are the larger 16 gallon size. AquaHot offers it in two configurations. In one each of the heater elements are 120 volt elements. In the other one is a 240 volt element and you must be connected to a 50 amp service to use it. Before someone asks Aquahot units can not be retrofitted with a second element.
As for dryer or stove plug usage I am not going to get into that can of worms. There are a number of different ways to connect 240 volt appliances depending on the manufacture and state difference in codes. I will say that to connect to a 240 volt source you it must also have the neutral present. Also if you don't run a ground connection there are dangers there as well.
Yes I agree that certainly the charger is not always the culprit for popping the 30 amp breaker when you first plug in. However the problem with it is that not everyone is aware of the potential for it to be the straw that broke the camels back. The charger left on 100% available can draw up to 100 amps at 12 volts or 10 amps at 120 volts. This is 1/3 of the available 30 amps and one can spend a lot of time chasing his tail if not aware of the ability to adjust the percentage of available.
Hope I haven't offended anyone. I seem to have developed a knack for that lately. It all happened when I turned 70.

Don Seager

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66966
Marc,

One trick that a lot of fulltimers that workamp use is to snake an extension cord into the coach from the 20 amp outlet found on most campground pedestals. This provides an additional 20 amps and usually we plug the space heater into it but anything that uses less than 20 amps will do. Toasters, hair dryers and coffee makers all represent a pretty high draw.
Camping World marketed a device that allowed you to plug into both the 30 and the 20 amp outlets at the pedestal and combine the available current to 50 amps (not to me confused with the 50 amps available with a 240 volt 50 amp connection). I had one for a while but the big problem that I ran into is that it is not compatible with 20 amp GFI plugs now found at most newer RV parks. Pops it immediately. I have when I was going to be parked for an extended period crept out in the dark of night and changed the GFI to a regular outlet and switched back when I moved on. I do NOT recommend this. I eventually gave it away.

Don Seager

2004 Allure 31046

Re: charge amp regulation

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66967
Jim M.:

Page 12 of the manual describes how to set the inverter with respect to shore power. It states:
"The inverter monitors the ac power being drawn by both the battery charger and the ac loads connected to the inverter. If the current draw approaches the shore power circuit breaker rating, the battery charger reduces the amount of current supplied to the batteries to provide the maximum current to the ac loads. Set Shore Power ensures the battery charger does not exceed the shore power circuit breaker rating. This setting should match the shore power or generator's circuit breaker rating. The default setting is 30 amps."
This was followed by a diagram illustrating the set shore power selections.
When on 30 amp shore power, I usually set the inverter to 15 amps and selectively turn on other electrical devices as others have described.

Chuck Penque

03 Intrigue 11673

Re: Outage on 30 Amp service

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66970
Yes DW uses the 20 AMP extension cord trick for the iron when we're at a 30 AMP pedestal.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: charge amp regulation

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66972
I interpret this to mean that if you set "Select Shore Power" to 15A then when/if other loads to the system reach 15A the inverter/charger shuts off so it draws no further current. How does this effect the other setup option of setting the percentage of the max charge rate? I presume the two have some relationship. Unfortunately, the manual doesn't make a suggestion as to the desired setting for commonly encountered situations. One would usually interpret the default as being the best for general use. I don't really have a problem using the system except for the one occasion I shut down the generator while the AC/thermostat was "on" but the AC not running and had the shore power circuit breaker pop when I later plugged in to a 15A outlet. Clearly a mistake on my part but not so obvious when trying to figure out why the source breaker is tripping.

Jim M.

'02 Intrigue #11410 ISL 400