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CAT ELC Issues

Yahoo Message Number: 72871
You should all see this from the CAT group:

Rich 2002 Magna

Posted by: "w9gas" garyspires45@... w9gas Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:40 am (PDT)

Allow me to introduce myself. My username, 'Spike45' can be found on other Motorhome user forums. I am currently a Cummins Inc. Field service engineer working in the Cummins Filtration business unit. Our products are branded Fleetguard. I have been here 21+ years with 20 years prior as Caterpillar employee in various positions. The last one as a field engineer on the then 3116 truck engine prototype program.
If you look me up on iRV2.com Caterpillar or Cummins engines on their Powertrain Forum, you will see that I post a lot with cooling system issues and answers plus I deal with filtration issues, as well. I am a cooling system, coolant, and chemical specialist these past 18 years. I can also be seen on the BLuebird and Foretravel Forums for engines.
In regards to this topic of the coolant and the pH, I am assuming that you are not currently using CAT ELC, is that correct? I am familiar with the test strips you are using but will question the validity of the pH test with such low miles of operation that you have. I think you said 39,000. For a coolant to have degraded to a pH of 7.0 in such short time is most unusual. You do not mention any other issues. Before blowing money on changing out the coolant, you should confirm that the pH really is that low. You possible could test the pH with swimming pool water test strips. If your coolant is not ELC, some one mentioned the normal operating range for conventional (not OAT) HD coolant as being in the 8.0 to 10.0 range. That is correct. In my job, I have seen VERY few coolants with a pH like that. When they did test that low they were accompanied by a strong odor and some discoloration (darker). No mention of that from you. I really doubt your coolant has that pH. Even if you did, there is nothing that is safe to add to your cooling system to bring pH up. To do so would require a degree in chemistry, seriously. Adjusting pH is not for the untrained. It is far safer and cheaper to dump the coolant and start with new coolant. If you truly have such a pH level, you should also be able to see some radiator corrosion plus the possibility of a rust colored coolant. A 7.0 pH will cause rust formation and discolor the coolant. If you do not have any other symptoms, hold off on that changing. It would be expected if you had 500,000 miles on the coolant.
I noted that Brett mentioned that CAT ELC does not require use of test strips. FYI to all who use Caterpillar ELC or similar OAT coolants from Chevron (DELO ELC) or Shell Rotella ELC, these formulas do contain nitrite and molybdate! You can test them with Fleetguard CC2602 test strips, test strips from Baldwin and Donaldson, also. While the sales hype from Caterpillar says that no testing is needed and no addition of SCA you are adding an SCA dose when you use the CAT extender liquid. It is a concentrated version of nitrite and molybdate. The actual organic acid used does not deplete much. However, I am going to this length to make you aware that if you lose the nitrite level in CAT ELC, you will have very little actual cavitation pitting protection. Without nitrite in CAT ELC, you essentially have Dexcool, a very light duty automobile coolant. Please do not discount what I say because I am a 'Cummins guy'. My interest is in providing honest, sound maintenance advice and solutions. It really does not matter to me whose products you use. It does matter how you use them and that you have the truth about various coolant products.
Use of CAT ELC if maintained correctly will provide excellent service IF you do not have soldered copper radiators and other heat exchangers. The organic acid in this ELC and the others I mentioned is called 2-ethyl hexanoic acid. It will aggressively attack lead solder and cause such corrosion that core tubes will be plugged off from corrosion 'bloom'. This same coolant will readily attack silicon rubber coolant hose. If you use this coolant now hopefully you are using Gates Blue Strip (EPDM) coolant hose or similar EPDM material hose. This hose material is impervious to the attach that the organic acid, 2-EH, will have on silicon rubber.
My purpose in this post is to provide more knowledge so you can make informed decisions about your MH maintenance.
If you want to use an OAT (organic acid technology) coolant to simplify your mainteneance consider the 2nd generation OAT coolants such as Shell Ultra, Chevron Delo Nitrite Free, Final Charge, and Fleetguard ES Compleat OAT. All of these products have one thing in common, they do not contain nitrite. Neither can they be tested by simple means to see if everything is 'good to go'. Use of any of these coolants should provide very good cavitation pitting protection. They will not require any SCA maintenance. They will require use of an extender at 300,000 miles into the expected 600,000 mile operating life. As with any coolant you MUST refill low coolant levels with a coolant that the same or very similar. You cannot refill with plain antifreeze and water especially without an add SCA or other inhibitor for pitting protection.

I look forward to participating on this forum.

Kind regards,
Gary Spires
W9GAS

The Coolant Guy

Re: CAT ELC Issues

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 72881
Rich,

Because these coolant issues have always seemed to be an area of great mystery to many of us on this list, this 'coolant guy' would be a great addition to this forum even though he is probably not a CC'er. Any chance of recruiting him here?

Dave Trotter

01 Intrigue 11215

Re: CAT ELC Issues

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 73019
Folks, about 9 days ago the last post at the bottom was posted to our group. Just below my text is a response posted to the CAT RV group yesterday by Brett Wolfe, the CAT RV Group moderator.

Lee
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Lee Zaborowski

07 Intrigue 12153, Cat C-13
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Below is an official response from Caterpillar Corp that should address a number of questions about Caterpillar ELC Coolant.

Brett

Cat ELC is a premium grade coolant which uses organic additives and nitrites to provide superior cavitation protection far exceeding the capability of conventional coolants. Unlike conventional coolants that rely on silicates to protect against cavitation and hybrid coolants (coolants using both organic and silicate technologies), Cat ELC does not require the use of silicates for cavitation prevention. The organic additives interact with the surface preventing cavitation without forming an inorganic silicate coating that impedes heat transfer and can cause premature wear of water pumps. Cat ELC is a balanced formulation having a pH buffered system and corrosion and scale inhibitors for the maximum protection of iron, aluminum, and copper. ELC provides all of this protection while delivering 600,000 miles (12,000 hours) of performance.
Cat ELC has been designed specifically for Cat engines and has received rigorous field testing in multiple on-road and off-road heavy-duty applications. It provides the best protection for all Caterpillar engines.

Some common myths concerning Cat ELC and its components:

1. The pH range for Cat ELC (and other organic additive coolants) is too low.
 All organic based coolants will have pH values between 7.5 and 10. Conventional coolants will have higher pH values.

2. Nitrites in the coolant will attack solder joints and form "solder bloom".
 Nitrites will indeed react with solder joints, but only at very high concentrations (i.e. >4000 ppm). Cat ELC contains a small amount of nitrites (500) to supplement the cavitation protection of organic additives. Extensive field and laboratory testing has demonstrated that this level of nitrites is not detrimental to the integrity of solder joints and will not form "solder bloom".

3. If nitrites in Cat ELC are either consumed or removed, the resulting coolant will act like a light duty automotive coolant.
 The organic acids in Cat ELC provide the primary source for prevention of cavitation. Nitrites are merely a supplemental additive above and beyond what is required by ASTM D6210 "Standard Specification for Fully-Formulated Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Heavy-Duty Engines". Laboratory and field data has shown that nitrites provide extra cavitation protection over nitrite-free organic-based coolants. Cat ELC has performed well in the ASTM D7583 "Standard Test Method for the John Deere Coolant Cavitation Test", demonstrating about 4 times the protection provided by nitrite-free organic-acid coolants. In addition, Cat ELC contains scale inhibitors that are not present in automotive coolants such as Dex-cool as well as additives that prevent glycol burning and oxidation.

4. The organic additives in Cat ELC will attack silicon rubber hoses.

Compatibility testing between Cat ELC and several common rubber materials has been performed. Cat ELC is compatible with silicone and other hose, seal, and gasket materials that have been tested.

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