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Surge protector

Yahoo Message Number: 74047
I was wondering if my 96 Intrigue had some kind of surge protector installed at the factory.
Dick. 96 Intrigue 10203

Re: Surge protector

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74060
Best way is to track the power line into the coach, to see if you can spot one. But, at least on all of the Progressive units we've had (Grand total of two: 1) 30A for our Bounder 2) Or Allure came stock with a 50A.), you will see a time delay from when you plug in for power, until when the 'check the condition of power' cycle is complete. Can be 30 seconds +, time delay. If no time delay for power in the coach when plugging in, good chance it does not have one.

Best of luck,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Surge protector

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74067
Quote from: zitrone 1000

I was wondering if my 96 Intrigue had some kind of surge protector installed at the factory.
Dick. 96 Intrigue 10203
Well, sorry to say, my coach does not have a surge protector.
Checked the fuse panel, and the 110 schematic and could not find one.
Debating if I should purchase Auto former.
Thanks for the help. Dick

Re: Surge protector

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74071
IMO, Surge Protector 1st, Autoformer 2nd. Keep the Surge Protector infront of the Autoformer, if doing both.

Best of luck:)!
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Surge protector

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74073
Dick, there was a surge protector of some sort in my original "96 Intrigue. I was told by cc that it should be adequate but I got nervous and when the coach was about 2 yrs. old I had a Surge Guard Auto power RV 50 amp. installed and it has saved me many times especially on low voltage. It was mounted in the compartment over the bed next to the electrical box, they drilled a couple of holes for the wires. For some reason it had to be mounted upside down, maybe wires were too short. Have to move wife's pillows to read it when hook up elec. but no issue to read it upside down. Had it done at a FMCA rally. Jim Veen, '96 36 ft. Intrigue, #10299.

Re: Surge protector

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74078
Sorry to disagree but the autoformer should be first. If you have a low voltage condition the autoformer will boost the voltage before it goes to the surge protector. Otherwise the surge protector will shut off the power before the autoformer has a chance to boost the voltage.

John Pratt
2006 Allure

Re: Surge protector

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74083
John - No worries on being sorry! And, I stand corrected, not the first time and will not be last... I did not look before I typed, I assumed I was 'protecting' the Hughes from high spikes... Bad assumption. (I still have not looked, but what you typed seems the way it should be.)

IMO - I was wrong:)!

Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: power question plz

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74094
Recently, I have had problems occurring only in middle of night with my 50 amp service shutting down and starting up again every 5 min or so -- really weird because it only occurs in the middle of the night -- when I spoke with the office of the campground here they told me to switch to 30amp - so far, on 30, it hasnt occurred. with the electricity shutting down and starting up every 5 min or so a few times on several nights, would that have damaged in any way my electrical system?? Do you folks feel it was in the power connection to my coach or something going wrong with my coach? thank you..
jan

06 Inspire 51898

Re: Surge protector

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74095
I agree with Smitty...

if the surge protector is installed downstream from the autoformer, you are leaving your $600.00 autoformer un-protected...
Most surge protectors only protect from voltage spikes... The very expensive surge protectors that will protect your coach from low voltage will not do so until the line voltage drops to around 104 Volts AC...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: power question plz

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74096
Your surge protector should be the model that also protects against low and high voltage. Your power source voltage was probably going too low or too high. The strange part is that it should have been happening on the 30 amp plug also.

Re: power question plz

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74097
Jan...

The campground has wiring problems...
And they are aware of it, or would not know to advise you to switch to 30amps to "fix" the problem...

I suggest you find a campground with adequate wiring...

buck

k7wn. '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: power question plz

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74099
From Jan's description of the problem, it sounds to me that her surge protector was shutting down due to low voltage...
After a "shut down", the surge protector will re-boot and re-connect power after a few minutes "rest"...
As to "it should have been happening on the 30 amp plug also", There are a myriad of reasons why it would work on 30 amps but not on 50amps...
Jan didn't tell us whether she actually went out to the shore power box and physically switched the line from the 50 amp plug to the 30 amp plug... Possibly she just changed her "power sharing" to 30 amps at the coach's power distribution panel... Either action would have limited the amperage draw, which would keep the line voltage from dropping...
Plenty of other reasons why it isn't happening at 30amps... Possibly a "lazy" 50 amp breaker in the shore power box, poor or loose connections or other wiring problems...
Without being there with my bevy of "flukes", I would bet that the campground has in-adequate wiring, that they know it, and thus tell anyone that has power problems to switch to 30 amps...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: Surge protector

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74100
Has anyone heard of a combo gadget that does both jobs in one unit? Seems like a better idea.

Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure, 30226

Re: power question plz

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74110
I was in a RV park that was operating on a generator which is a recipe for varying voltage. My surge protector kept shutting me down.
I switched to a 110 outlet and got through the night not without some apprehension about my electronics.

Dan 2006 Allure 31348

Re: Surge protector

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74116
Buck,

John pointed out that the Autoformer would help with lower voltages, doing what it is intended to do - raise/stabilize power. I could see his point. I have to go look at my setup, as I do not know what is online first on my rig... The protector would take away the benefit of raising the lower power?

Still has me thinking:)!

Best,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Surge protector

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74119
Smitty...

John is correct in that the function of the autoformer is to maintain the line voltage at a constant level...
The function of the surge-protector is to protect the coach from high voltage/amperage spikes and, in the case of some surge protectors, from lower voltage... The surge-protector will not raise the low voltage, it simply shuts down when the line voltage drops to around 104 volts...
John suggested that the autoformer be installed first in line from the shore-power, his reasoning being that surge-protector would not allow the autoformer to do it's job if installed downstream from the surge-protector ...

My points are:
1.) IF the autoformer is 1st in line from the shore power, it WILL NOT BE PROTECTED from high voltage/amperage spikes...

2.) If the surge-protector is installed 1st in line from shore power the autoformer WILL BE PROTECTED from high voltage/amperage spikes...

3.) Since most surge protectors don't shut down unless the voltage drops to around 104 volts, it will not prevent the autoformer from stabilizing the voltage until the line voltage drops below 104 volts...

If the line voltage drops to the point that the surge protector shuts down, it is time to crank up and move to a campground that has sufficient wiring to maintain a reasonable voltage/amperage level...
One other note about autoformers... Some campgrounds prohibit their use due to the fact that they think the autoformer uses more "electricity" and causes the line voltage to drop...
This is simply not the case... autoformers are extemely efficent, core and hysteresis losses are usually less than 2%... The autoformer actually helps keep the voltage up in the entire campground by preventing additional amperage draw from the coach's systems/appliances as the campground line voltage drops...
To "sum up"... methinks it best to install the autoformer in one of the coach's bays so the campground won't know you have one... and, install it down-stream from the surge-protector...
Kind of a long-winded answer to your query Smitty... short answer is: IMHO, placing the autoformer downstream from the surge protector would NOT take away the benefit of the autoformer...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: Surge protector

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74120
I believe the autoformers all have surge protection built in also. All the Country Coaches that I know of have the more expensive surge protectors that protect against high and low voltage also. This is an important feature as you are much more likely to encounter high or low voltage than a spike or surge. Put your autoformer where you want but it will not work if you put it downstream from the surge/voltage protector. Its job is to raise voltage when it gets too low. If the surge/voltage protector sees low voltage in the line ahead of the autoformer, it will shut the line down. The $600 autoformer is now doing nothing.

John Pratt

2006 Allure 31308

Re: Surge protector

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74125
John, Buck - I'm again changing my opinion...
I do have the Progressive first in line, as it does more then protect for too low/too high/spikes. It also checks that the camp ground is wired correct (reversed polarity, open ground/neutrals). It has a better Joules rating ranges. It does cut off at a low of 104V, but I'm OK with this.
The Hughes RV450 is protected, and is also handling 104V up support, and providing more 'stable' power during internal surge needs within the coach.
So, I think I have this wired the right way. We have this in the cabinet space behind the bedroom TV. Progressive came hard wired from CC, and we added the RV450 downstream from this. I do not hear any humming, which I was asked once before on another board.
I sure can see it the way John talked about it too. But, I figured if it drops below 104v, I probably don't want to be on that parks power grid anyway:)!
I sure enjoy this board, and learn so much from all of the nice people who share their knowledge. I may have this wrong, but, it works, and I think I will keep it this way.

To each their own...

Best,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017

They verify that the CG pedestal is wired correctly before allowing power into you RV and disconnects it if problems occur after plug in. This includes high/low voltage, high/low Hz, reversed polarity, open ground/neutrals,
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Surge protector

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74126
Smitty...

Sounds to me like you have the situation well in hand...

Remember: "wrong", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder...

buck

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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Re: Surge protector

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74129
One point

Autoformers do make conditions for the other people in the campground worse. In order for them to 'boost' the voltage to a usable level it has to draw more current which causes an increased voltage drop on the feed line.
The statement that if your surge protector trips out on low voltage it is time to move is valid. Low voltage causes more issues that surges simply because they are more numerous.
In my opinion (which is worth what you paid for it) save the money, space and weight on the autoformer and just make sure you have a good surge protector.

Dave

aka Billy Byte (trusty hound)
2000 Allure #30443

Re: Surge protector

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74139
Hi David,

I'm not an electrician (proved that in this string:)!), but I've read this same comment on other boards. But, I've also then read from others - that this is not the case.
Good recent string over on Escapees about all of this. Some of that gang have strong electrical background.
One comment from Jack Mayer was about 30 or 50 Amp breakers in a RV Power Pole, will 'cap' what you can pull in. Can't pull more then the 30 or 50 Amp.
I just don't have enough knowledge to state one way of another. I did not put in the Hughes to cause problems for others in the park. But I do not feel that I am. If anyone is having problems with a low voltage situation, they should not be talking with those that have Autoformers, they should be talking to the park management that rented them a spot with inadequate power. That is how I look at this.

Just my opinion.

Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Surge protector

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74145
I have been watching this surge protector thread with great interest. No body has addressed the issue of a "open neutral" situation. If the neutral line comes open, you will have 240 VAC entering your coach which will do a lot of damage. Does your surge protector offer open neutral protection?

Chuck B
SOB

Re: Surge protector

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74147
Yes, the Surge Guard (I looked, it was not Progressive.) does protect from neutral...

TRC site has spec's on this.

Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Surge protector

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 74151
Dave...

Your statement: " Autoformers do make conditions for the other people in the campground worse." is simply not valid.
Also, your statement: "In order for them to 'boost' the voltage to a usable level it has to draw more current which causes an increased voltage drop on the feed line", is not valid when considering the TOTAL amperage drawn by a motorcoach...
Modern transformers (autoformers) operate at an efficiency in excess of 98%... Yes, there is a small loss (less than 2%) due to core losses and hysteresis, but it is minimal when compared to the increased amperage drawn by the coach's systems and appliances while trying to operate at reduced line voltage...
Without getting into a long-winded explanation of "power"(usually expressed in "watts"), Let me say that "Power" is a constant... As line voltage drops, the coach systems/appliances draw more amperage to maintain the "Power" level... Conversely, as line voltage increases, amperage drawn by coach systems/appliances decreases...
When considering the electrical draw of the coach and autoformer as a system, It becomes obvious that the autoformer, by keeping the coach line voltage at a reaonable level, reduces the total amperage drawn by the coach systems/appliances when compared to coach systems/appliances struggling to operate at the ridiculously low voltages available in some campgrounds...
To sum up, The benefits of the autoformer in reducing TOTAL coach amperage far outweigh the small losses that occur in the autoformer...

Nope, I do not sell autoformers...

buck,

k7wn, '99magna5653, Cat C10, Allison HD4060, SantaFe toad

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