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ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Yahoo Message Number: 80197
I've thread dived via search spot checking thru 738 hits... with no luck.
I have a call into the local Cummins Cal Pacific in San Diego (El Cajon) area, but not having much luck making 'contact' with anyone as of Friday. Suspect next week I can get their official answer back...
What I wanted to know, for those with the ISL and two stage Jake's, is:

1) Have you been able to have your ISL Jake and Allison re-flashed to choose a different gear when engaging the Jake?
2) Have you been able to have your Jake engage while in Cruise Control?

My 2004 ISL two speed Jake, down shifts to 4th gear when engaged. I have not been able to get it to work while in Cruise Control mode.
I would like it to engage in 6th if possible, and then let me manually control down the gears as needed. I would also like it to engage when needed, if set to on, while the Cruise Control is on.

I also would welcome input on other settings to consider.

TIA, be safe, have fun,
Smitty
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80198
Quote
Quote from: GSmith77_7"
Smitty,

The answer is yes, maybe. I'm not sure about setting it to 6th but it can be reset to 2. I cannot figure out why you would want to increase your workload by manually shifting all the time. If you get it set to 6th gear then I think you may not have Jake at all, (not sure about that.) Also I think I can guarantee you that you won't get the best fuel mileage by manually shifting. The cruise control is smarter than you and will do a better job. Get it set to 2 (best for mountain driving) and enjoy the ride. As for Jake with cruise control it seems that some folks can and some can't. How to change it is a mystery to me.
BTW, include your coach info when posting. That allows folks to more accurately help you.
Lyle Wetherholt
04 Intrigue 11740
> I've thread dived via search spot checking thru 738 hits... with no luck.
> I have a call into the local Cummins Cal Pacific in San Diego (El Cajon) area, but not having much luck making 'contact' with anyone as of Friday. Suspect next week I can get their official answer back...
> What I wanted to know, for those with the ISL and two stage Jake's, is: > > 1) Have you been able to have your ISL Jake and Allison re-flashed to choose a different gear when engaging the Jake? > > 2) Have you been able to have your Jake engage while in Cruise Control? > > My 2004 ISL two speed Jake, down shifts to 4th gear when engaged. I have not been able to get it to work while in Cruise Control mode.
> I would like it to engage in 6th if possible, and then let me manually control down the gears as needed. I would also like it to engage when needed, if set to on, while the Cruise Control is on.

I also would welcome input on other settings to consider.

TIA, be safe, have fun,
Smitty

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80199
Smitty Can't answer all your questions, specifically, but, there are a couple of things you should know.
1 The jake brake will not kick in at an RPM safer than the transmission can handle. My 06 Dynasty showed 2nd when it went into jake. That doesn't mean that the trans was in second. If you were going 65 over the crest of a hill and speeded to 70 when you put on the jake , the display would show 2nd, in my case but really would likely be in 5th. You can actually go to the trouble to find out which gear shifting down. If you manually shifted to 4th and the trans was over revving in that position, it would , say stay in 5th , even though the display reads 4th. That is why you have to learn what speed the trans kicks down.
2 Lets' say you are going down a long hill, say the road to Laughlen, approaching from the east, where the grade is probably 6 or 7% for about 7 miles, if you left only the jake on , and it got past 2500 RPM in any gear, which the usual max RPM, the trans will shift up to the next higher gear, regardless of what you have it set for. You could be in big trouble at that point as you service brake may not be able to slow the coach. The trans is set to protect itself. When I engage the jake and it is not slowing enough , I hit the brakes , hard for a short period , to get the jake to a speed where the jake is effective. If your brakes overheat and you are still speeding up , you are somewhat screwed.
My current coach with an ISX shows 4th when I put the jake on. It has a 3 stage jake, but more importantly has a 14.9 L engine. the amount of jake available is proportional to the engine cubic inches. The ISL is only 8.9 L, and therefor does not have as much compression braking available.
My ISL did not have the Jake tied into the cruise, but the ISX with 4000 series trans, does and it kicks in at about 5 to 6MPH over the set speed. You will have to check with Cummins/Allison to find if this can be programmed for your combination of ISL/3000 trans.

Hope this helps

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025 ISX 650/ 4000 series Allison

Hope this helps

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80201
Lyle, Ron - thanks.

If it is ajustable option, I will probably go with default gear of 5th. I would liken brake assist at a higher speed. As long as I can downshift lower when wanted.
The early research indicated no to the cruise control and Jake working together, but thought I would ask if others had found away to do this with the ISL.

Sorry I blew signing off without my rig info! Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80202
My engine brake will engage while in the cruise mode at 5 to 6 mph above the set speed. I had my

system set to automatically seek second gear as I drive the mountains of Colorado and the hills of

California, Oregon and Montana quite often. If I am driving above 60 mph and approaching an

unknown grade I cancel the cruise control approaching the grade. If I know the grade is going to be

above 6 % then I reduce my speed to 57 when I engage the engine brake and it immediately engages. I

run 12 R tires which are the same diameter at 315 so depending on your tire diameter you may have to

lower your speed. The engine brake has little effect in 6th just notable in 5th and effective in 4th. But

if you are required to travel a 7% plus grade you had better slow into the 40's with stepper grades

requiring you to be in 3rd and in the thirties. One of my favorite 11% grades in California requires me

to be in second gear and in the 20's/ Your oil pressure should be above 40 lbs. if not, change oil or

check for polution from the cooling system or the injection pump.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Original Message:
-----------------

From: GSmith77_7 gsmith77_7@... Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:00:37 -0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

I've thread dived via search spot checking thru 738 hits... with no luck.
I have a call into the local Cummins Cal Pacific in San Diego (El Cajon) area, but not having much luck

making 'contact' with anyone as of Friday. Suspect next week I can get their official answer back...

What I wanted to know, for those with the ISL and two stage Jake's, is:

1) Have you been able to have your ISL Jake and Allison re-flashed to choose a different gear when
engaging the Jake?

2) Have you been able to have your Jake engage while in Cruise Control?

My 2004 ISL two speed Jake, down shifts to 4th gear when engaged. I have not been able to get it to

work while in Cruise Control mode.
I would like it to engage in 6th if possible, and then let me manually control down the gears as needed. I would also like it to engage when needed, if set to on, while the Cruise Control is on.

I also would welcome input on other settings to consider.

TIA, be safe, have fun,
Smitty

mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80204
My ISL 370 Jake Brake works even when the cruise control is engaged. It was like that when I bought it used in 2004.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80206
I've thread dived via search spot checking thru 738 hits... with no luck.
I have a call into the local Cummins Cal Pacific in San Diego (El Cajon) area, but not having much luck making 'contact' with anyone as of Friday. Suspect next week I can get their official answer back...
What I wanted to know, for those with the ISL and two stage Jake's, is:

1) Have you been able to have your ISL Jake and Allison re-flashed to choose a different gear when engaging the Jake?

Yes it can be set to downshift to any gear 2 thru 6

2) Have you been able to have your Jake engage while in Cruise Control?

With a wiring change in the coach it will work like this. For some reason they were wired to not be able to use both... Most vehicles are not wired this way, ie trucks, etc.
My 2004 ISL two speed Jake, down shifts to 4th gear when engaged. I have not been able to get it to work while in Cruise Control mode.

See above

I would like it to engage in 6th if possible, and then let me manually control down the gears as needed. I would also like it to engage when needed, if set to on, while the Cruise Control is on.

See above

I also would welcome input on other settings to consider.

TIA, be safe, have fun,
Smitty

Mikee

Yahoo! Groups Links

info/terms/

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80207
Smitty, These are not direct answers to your questions, but some info for you.
I suggest you call the Cummins Customer Care number: 800-343-7357 I've had great luck with them either guys or gals all seem to know their product very well, you just have to have your Engine Ser. # when you call. I talked with them last week and got all my questions answered very well.

1. My ISL 370 Jake Brake I keep engaged all the time. When on Cruise Control mine engages down to 4th gear assuming RPM's are not to high, if so it engages to 5th, then to 4th.

2. If I let it do its thing my coach resumes to Cruise Set Speed automatically. It does not shut off the Cruise unless I hit the Brake or the Cancel Buttom on Smart Wheel.

3. Reading my Engine Features & Parameters under "ENGINE BRAKE CONTROL" it reads: Cruise Control - ENABLE, CRUISE CONTROL SPEED DELTA FOR MAXIMUM ENGINE BRAKE: 11 MPH, CRUISE CONTROL SPEED DELTA FOR MINIMUM ENGINE BRAKE: 4 MPH

Thanks, Mike 03 Allure 1st Ave. #30898

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80210
Quote
Quote from: GSmith77_7"
Smitty,

You should read Ron's answer again--slowly. After you have digested his fine comments go ahead and set your default to 5th and we will pick you up from the bottom of a steep hill someday! Since you don't have to have the Jake on (it is selectable)why do you want to set default at 5th??? It makes no sense. If you want to do your own shifting then just don't turn the jake on. The jake brake may be the most important safety item on your coach. USE IT.
Lyle Wetherholt
04 Intrigue 11740

Lyle, Ron - thanks.
> If it is ajustable option, I will probably go with default gear of 5th. I would liken brake

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80212
A little dramatic isn't this? There are still trucks on the road today that do not have any exhaust brake, Jake, engine or otherwise. They do save brakes, but units can be driven safely without them. Years ago there were no engine brakes and everyone got er done. Driving technique is far more important than an engine brake. And an engine brake cannot fix stupid..... Bad driving technique will not be rescued by an engine brake. It they were the end all be all they would be mandated....

Mikee

MIkee

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80213
Think it depends on what part of the country you live. If in the west, then an engine brake is a must. The railroads have fought this battle for years, now they have dynamic braking, about the same thing as an engine brake in principal. In the east railroads do not bother to buy dynamic braking on there engines. Before Jake brakes log trucks in the west had a water system to cool the brakes. When Jake brakes came along the water systems were removed. Before engine brakes, run away trucks from loss of brakes was far to common. Now days it is not heard of.

Engine brakes are set up the way they are on our rigs for a very good reason. Anyone who thinks they are smarter then the years of experience has taught the designers and make changes are asking to be in the headlines as a "run away" ending in a wreck of death are at the very best a huge tow bill to pull one out of a run away truck ramp. Not to mention the carnage that will occur to the underside of the coach. A escape truck ramp will totally destroy all the underside fiberglass storage bins at the very least, as the design of a escape truck ramp is to absorb the speed by having the rig sink in very loose gravel. Leave your engine brakes alone for your and others safety on the roads.

Dramatic? No not at all. Real life in the mountains of the west. Where brakes are a limited commodity to be treated with great respect.

Leonard

97' Magna 5418

Oregon - no matter which way I go there are mountains to cross.

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80214
I had my 07 build year cummins/allison reprogrammed to "shift hunt" (their term for the gear where shift sequence stops) to 2nd. Have a friend who had his revised to 5th so as to manually downshift below 5th when needed. Shift hunt is an Allison program feature and takes maybe 15 minutes to hook up, reprogram, reboot & check.
Cummins software is where the cruise "parameter" for Jake useage is set. You can have Jake work or be disabled while cruise is active. Similarly, takes ~15 minutes.
Don't know why, but the combo on mine of shift hunt 2nd & jake enable in cruise has the jake disabled in cruise. The tech at Cummins in West Sacramento was able to verify both settings & unable to get jake active despite the enabled program setting. Bad software is my suspicion, pretty much gotta be. However, I've got the DPF (pre-DEF) engine, and earlier engine/trans ECU builds can probably achieve full functionality. Mike

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80215
Quote
Quote from: Mbaul@...
Mikee,

Dramatic maybe, but sometimes you have to be dramatic to get some people's attention. I repeat my question to Smitty; why set default to fifth gear when you can just leave the jake off and manually shift all day long if you want to? Leonard's reply following mine was spot on! Just because they used to do it that way is not justification to not take advantage of one of the best safety devises to be employed on our coaches ever.
Lyle Wetherholt
04 Intrigue 11740
> A little dramatic isn't this? There are still trucks on the road today > that do

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80216
This line about safety and Automatic transmissions and how they interface with engine brakes has

brought back some memories I had for gotten. My first Motor home was a 98 Allure with an ISC330 and

a 3060 transmission. It had an exhaust brake, the small tires, and 330 HP.
While driving in the

mountains of New Mexico and Colorado on narrow roads with sharp turns it was such a pain and a

drudgery to have to select the correct gear at the right time to get the best effect when going down

grades of different degrees. It was not pleasant and was stressful deciding which gear I needed to be in and what speed I had to be at to get the transmission and exhaust brake to work efficiently. Taking

your eyes off the road selecting gears going down steep grades with tight corners was not my favorite

choice. When I bought the 04 Intrigue that weighed as much dry as the Allure weighed full made me

think that driving might be more stressful. I there fore had Gary with Allison reprogram the tranny to

seek 3rd when I took delivery at a CC home coming rally. We went to the coast and to Tillamook and

cut across one of Oregons narrow curvy roads from the coast to Salem. When I returned to the factory

with my post delivery fix list, the coach was programed to seek 2nd by Allison. It makes all the

difference in the world. I don't have to take my eyes off the road anymore all I have to do is negotiate to

grades and curves. I can tell by listening if I need to slow a bit by tapping the brakes. 7 or 8,9,or 10, 0r 12% grades use to worry me with the ALLURE, BUT THE INTRIGUE HANDLES THEM WITH EASE! IF you

want an experience, try Wolf Creek pass east to west in Colorado, or Hwy 29 near Calistoga, Calif. or

taking the short cut from Stanton to Cass West Virginia. The River Road near Santa Rosa is treat as is the decent into Crescent City California on Hwy 101. You will need the flexibility if you take Hwy 199 east out of Crescent city to I-5 , also.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731 Original Message:
-----------------

From: Lyle lylewet@... Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:25:00 -0000 To: Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80218
Lyle

Your right on the money, and the reference to large trucks is really not valid. Almost all large trucks have a manual transmission, and if you are in the right gear you have a built in engine break.

Steve

06 Allure 31299

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80219
Hi All - Thanks to you all for your posts, and for the few PM's I've received too - much appreciated. A few would have helped me more, if I knew for sure that the engine in your coaches had ISL's or Cat's. For example, some 04 to 06 Intrigues could have either. A Big Cat Jake, is much difference then an ISL's Jake...
I've concluded that I may not fully understand how my specific coaches ISL and Jake are interacting with each other. Thought I did, but enough comments have popped up that makes me really wonder if I do.
For example, it is possible I'm not seeing the Jake activate while in cruise control, because the cut in speed is too high for what the Allison will allow RPM's wise. So, I will test this on my next monthly exercise the rig drive, on a hill I know and setting the cruise to 50 to see what happens with Jake activation then.
Another example of where I may not be clear, one that Don pointed out to me, is the actual gear that Allison allows a Jake assist to downshift to. May not be the indicated 4 on the panel. He suggested I set the Silverleaf to display the actual Allison gear, and see what gear is kicking in. Very possible in some of my applications, that it is in 5th, though the trans panel shows 4 as the default gear for Jake.
Last assumption that may be wrong. When I'm say going down a grade in High Jake Mode, at say 35-40, and I hit the down shift to 3 - I don't think it is downshifting. (Will test this, when displaying the actual gear on the Silverleaf).
I understand the strong nudges to me, and other readers of a thread like this, to not try and 'out think' the engineers... Well, I have a few thoughts about this, as I work in aerospace with many 'engineers'. I also suspect Norcold and Workhorse had 'engineers' involved with those product failures - so I'm a bit calloused by 'engineers as all knowing' in general. I do respect the trade, but they are human and I always look out for myself, family and friends.
That being said, most of your message to me and others is the SEVERE DANGER of braking and maintaining control in mountain situations. I TOTALLY AGREE AND THANK YOU FOR BEING SURE I (and others) UNDERSTAND THIS.
I've heard enough feedback, to go do some more fact finding on what my rig is doing, and see if it is doing what I think it was... Then, I can reflect a bit more and see what I feel is the right choice.
I do appreciate all of the input, and cautions - some worded a bit more frankly then I feel was warranted. But, choose to believe it was done with good intent.

Best to all,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017 ISL
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80220
Hi Smitty,

My engine is Cummins 370 ISL chipped to 400 ISL.
Yes I have viewed my Silverleaf to know what gear the tranny is in with Jake engaged. Note my default for the Jake Brake is 4th gear.
You are correct if you're in Cruise and as example start down a steep hill at 65 mph your coach will probably first seek 5th gear if speed/rpm is to high for 4th, then when will seek 4th gear when rpm is low enough...you can brake to help this occur.
Smitty, you can manually arrow down to 3rd gear (over riding 4th gear default) but the coach won't go there until the computer agrees with the speed/rpm is safe for the coach to go into 3rd gear.
Thanks Mike 03 allure 1st Ave. #30898 Cummins ISL 370 chipped to 400

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80235
Why would you want your Cruise on, with your Jake Brake on. I have a friend who just retired from over the road driving, and I will ask him. He drove for 36 yrs/ and no accidents.

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80242
And how many miles do you have driving class 8 trucks?

Mikee

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80243
If there was an absolute right way for it to work, the programming would not be changeable. He has his opinions, just like you do. And they seem to differ on this subject. Neither one is wrong, just different.

Mikee

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80244
What is the difference between an automatic and manual, either one needs to be in the correct gear to be effective? It is just a matter of procedure to get it in the right gear.
And for your info, The percentage of automatic class 8 trucks is growing every day. More and more are going to automatics, partially because of today's drivers.

Mikee

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80246
I think there is an ECM setting that can be changed to allow the cruise control to be on while the Jake brake switch is on. On mine, as soon as the Jake brake engages, the cruise control releases, and then will automatically reset after the Jake brake disengages.

Larry, 03 Allure, 30856

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80247
Larry I would doubt that the cruise is "releasing " The jake kicks in when you are about 5 or 6 MPH over the cruise set speed. therefore there is no throttle at that point, as you are over the set speed. Mine jake lets go at about 2 MPH over the set speed. Again , since you are higher than the set speed the cruise in engaged , but not active. There would be no reason to shut the cruise off, as the cruise only kicks in when you get below the set speed. I also can't imagine that these aren't ALL programmable items( depending on the age of the ECM-which can be updated )

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80248
Sounds good Ron. Thanks for the clarification.

Larry

Re: ISL and Allison and Jake Brake setting options?

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 80253
I frequently leave the Jake switch on with cruise control if I am in hilly country where conditions allow me to maintain a specific speed, but I want to prevent over speeding on the longer downhill stretches. The Jake cannot engage until the throttle circuits sense a closed throttle, which in cruise control occurs when the speed exceeds the selected speed. At that point, the Jake engages. Speed slows, cruise control asks for power, the throttle is no longer closed, the Jake deactivates. Essentially, you create speed control above and below your set speed.

Stuart Thornton, 2005 Allure, ISL, #31217