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Time for new tires

Yahoo Message Number: 83859
I know that this topic has been discussed on many occasions and I am trying to find those previous discussions using the Country_Coach_Owners messages in YahooGroups. It should be intuitive, but how do I navigate my way through the gazillion messages to find those that discuss replacement tires? Only a day or 2 worth of messages are displayed at a time and using the Find command to look for "Tire" has been a slow and tedious and frustrating search process. Could someone point me to some of those discussions and I could also use a tutorial on how to do a global search through ALL of the messages over the past year or years.
My 2002 Intrigue had its original Toyo tires replaced at about 5 years and the current Michelin XZ2 (12R 22.5) tires are showing no wear but a lot of sidewall cracking. I just stopped at Les Schwab in Anderson, CA and replacement Michelin XZE tires run over $800 each (ouch!) whereas the M143 Toyo tires are about $200 cheaper. And Bridgestone 250F are in the $500 range. That's quite a spread for tires that have to be thrown away every 5 years because of age and checking. I would really like to use the same Toyo tires that came with the coach but am afraid to because of the peeing contest that arose between Toyo tire and Country Coach a few years back. Are Toyo tires still verboten on Country Coach???
Looking for tire suggestions as well as navigation aid through the years of messages to read what has already been said on this subject. I'm looking to stay with 12R 22.5 rather than the P295 size ... although I would consider going to P315 if someone has had experience with them fitting OK. How come they don't make a P305?

Thanks, Steve B

2002 Intrigue #11382 (36-foot)

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83864
We had Toyos on our '04 Allure. We talked to Pat at Pro Tires in Denton TX and told him we had Toyos and he said "you have a Country Coach, don't you?" As a mid price tire, he recommended B F Goodrich ST230's. He worked for Buddy Gregg and changed tires on many Country Coaches and Prevost. He came to our RV site, changed the tires, did an alignment, checked the ride height. That was about 4 years ago and many miles and we are very happy with the Goodrich tires. They are owned by Michelin and the tires are made in America. They are load range H.

Lonny & Diane Livingston
'04 Allure #31065

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83866
Your not the only one to have the XZ2 fail due to cracking. Les Schwab in Junction City bought back the remaining time my XZ2 should have lasted. I put 315's Continentals on my coach. They have a 7 year warranty versus 5 years for the Michelins. By the way Michelin does not cover side wall cracking. As I mentioned previously, I've seen XZA2, XZ2 and others cracking as young as 12 to 18 months, but not XZE. Every time at a rally or a RV park I take a stroll I look at owners tires. The issue is not prevalent. My best guess is 2 or 3 out off 100. I've owned Continentals previously, when I had Toyo issues on my former 98 Allure with 275R70's that were under rated, by not only by Toyo, but Michelin, Goodyear, etc. That's when I changed to 275 R 80's. I drove them for 3 years, with a much superior ride than the Toyo. The 315's I am using now ride better and are quieter than my original 12R Toyo and ride as well as the XZ2, but because of the all-weather tread design are just a tad noisier like the Michelin XZA2. I run the same pressure as the 12R even though they are a larger tire with a higher weight rating, because I occasionally sustain speeds above 66 to 67 miles per hour on the flat lands of West Texas where the speed limit is 80 mph. 115 lbs front and Tag, 107 to 110 lbs drive axle. Read the fine print on the Continentals, on a 8.25 rim you can only inflate to the rating of the rim. And the carrying capacity is reduced a certain percentage. If you drive over 70 there is a further rating decrease. But they still surpass the 12R at 120 lbs by a significant margin. You can inflate Continentals to the published weight tables, unlike Toyo and Michelin which have to be inflated to the CC placard. With your lighter weight coach, that should be a significant difference. TWI 2004 intrigue 11731

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83867
Oh the Continentals are of German design, but built in the USA. I could have bought XZE cheaper at home in El Paso, but by the time I added mounting, old tire removal , the new stems, and balancing Les Scwab was cheaper. Then I would have had to pay sales TAX and a state mandated tire disposal fee in Texas. Plus, Redmond tire would not buy back my remaining time on the Michelins. I guess being a steady Junction City Les Scwab buyer is worth something beside a hand shake.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731.

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83871
Thomas I would be interested in knowing where you got the information to make the statement "You can inflate Continentals to the published weight tables, unlike Toyo and Michelin which have to be inflated to the CC placard ". At Les Schwab in Junction City, when I picked up my coach, I showed them the weights and calculations from the Michelin Weight Tables Plus 5 pounds, and they inflated the tires to those pressures and adjusted the Smartire accordingly. They had me sign a paper saying that I knew these were different than the coach placard. Also, when the CC engineer , when questioned the tire pressure ratings ( even though they are not close to the weight tables) , he told me that that CC used the pressures that Prevost uses, and , I quote , " if it is good enough for Prevost , It's good enough for CC ". As has been previously discussed, these pressures are a CYA so they don't get sued-per Firestone / Ford. I believe your statement to be incorrect

Ron Baran 09 Magna 7025 20,000# front end

-

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83872
Type tire doesn't matter, you should weigh your coach and use the tire inflation tables included with any tire manufacturer booklet. The placard actually just shows the maximum tire pressure, and as you said it is a CYA placard. I ran my original Toyos over 50,000 miles and a little over 6 years, inflating them according to the weight tables, never had a problem and they had a lot of tread life left but I replaced them as a precaution due to their age. No cracking or any other problems. I am now nearing the time to change from my current Goodyears which I have also inflated according to the weight tables in the tire book which the dealer provided.

Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83874
Thomas

You state that Michelins have to be inflated to the placard on the coach and not the Michelin wheel weight table.
I have not read that elsewhere. Can you share the basis of that statement?

Michael

2008 Allure 31683
--

Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83877
Walt,

Why do you say that? Hopefully you have some personal experience to share with us. I have an 'o4 Inspire and I'm on my second set of TOYOs. Wouldn't trade them for all the Michelins in the world (and I had Michelins on a previous coach). My six tires cost me just over $2,400 out the door. That's about half the price of your Michelins.

George

'04 Inspire 51061

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83878
Steve

Let me give you some facts about the CC/Toyo dispute that may allay your fears of Toyo tires and allow you to judge them on a more objective basis.
CC put the wrong spec Toyos on some 1995-2000 Allures and Intrique coaches resulting in overloaded tires. Further, they put the wrong inflation pressure placards on the coaches, and had actual axle weights exceeding the GAWR on the vehicle placard. Further they communicated poorly with their customers and with Toyo which led Toyo not to recommend their tires for Any Country Coach, thus the pissing match you refer to.
Individuals have different experiences with various tire brands, but there is no evidence that Toyos are not suitable on a Country Coach or any other coach provided the tire is of the proper size and has the proper load rating for the actual GAWR of the axle it is fitted on. In that respect Toyos are no different than any other tire.

George Harper
04 Allure 31093

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83882
Well, you see I don't have a 20,000 lbs front end, only 14,500 and the coach was fitted with 12R's with rims rated at 120 lbs. Not the maximum pressure of a 315 at its recommended maximum load. So I have to use the charts, other wise the wheels will fail, the beads will slip off the rim under high impact, wheels will fail and a bunch of other things could happen, etc etc. Plus I have a ISL 400 instead of a C-12 or on later units a C-13. So I don't need the pressure for the rears either, other wise I'd tear up shocks, break radiator mounts, etc which are symptoms of too much tire pressure. Folks have who have failing shocks, cracked fiber glass, broken hangars and mounts, separated wall paper, broken seals on windows, cracked seams, leaking slide rooms etc, all of which could be caused by overly stiff ride from over inflating tires. Now I don't believe you should under inflate either. Continentals charts includes what pressure to add for given speeds, rim size, weight, and road conditions. All Michelin used to say was fill to the chart and add 10 lbs if you drive at high speeds or under severe conditions. I loved my Michelins, but once burnt, twice cautious. That's why CC filled to the Max pressure to prevent law suits. If Michelin, Goodyear, Toyo, etc had been thorough and CC done exhaustive testing the issue would never had arrived. "Native" engineering and depending on the words of others is what caused CC all their tire problems. Placing the ride height valves backwards on Allures and Intrigues was a prime example!!!
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83883
CaLL Country Coach and ask Kevin Kiscowin, call Doug Rutherford, for VP of Chassis and director of service at CC, at Coach Glass and they will tell you that CC said fill to the placard, with no exceptions. Call Mr. Obermier at Primere Coach, he was the chief engineer at CC, he'll tell you the same. I set at a Seminar in Harrisburg this Summer, given by Les Schwab and CC and they say fill to the placard. But I have a special case. I up graded my tires. It's just like when I upgraded the tires on my 98 Allure from 270 R 70 to 275R80. Then the chart for the R70 didn't apply, same story for today. For the gent with the Magna, if his coach originally came with 315's and he went to 365's the placard would n't apply would it??
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83884
I agree, but also had two 12R Toyo's fail on my 04 Intrigue front end. They were 3 years old with 28,000 miles. That and the quieter and smoother ride was why I went with Michelin. Three years later due to cracking on all 8 tires I went with Continentals. The tire wear was perfect with even tread depth and no visible edge wear. I was looking for ward to another 3 or 4 great years of tire life.
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83886
OK Thomas, not that I doubt you but perhaps you could provide published reference rather than he said she said. This is a critical issue and whilst I do not doubt your sincerity your statements fly in the face of published procedures and settings that I have seen. Surely you do not run your coach on hearsay but documented instructions which provide you with comfort? Too often one can be missled by well meaning but interlectually challenged "experts"

Michael

2008 Allure 31683
--

Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83887
I am not sure that a coach manufacturer would be the authority on this, I would think the tire company would be the source of valid load specs for their tires. Micheline says this at their web site:

Load & Inflation Tables

For RV use only, Michelin displays tire loads per axle end in the load and inflation tables, as we recommend weighing each axle end separately and using the heaviest end weight to determine the axle's cold inflation tire pressure. For control of your RV, it is critical the tire pressures be the same across an axle, while NEVER exceeding the maximum air pressure limit stamped on the wheels.
To select the proper load and inflation table, locate your tire size in the following pages, then match your tire's sidewall markings to the table with the same sidewall markings. If your tire's sidewall markings do not match any table listed, please contact your Michelin dealer for the applicable load and inflation table.
Industry load and inflation standards are in a constant state of change, and Michelin continually updates its product information to reflect these changes. Printed material may not reflect the latest load and inflation standards.
In the load and inflation tables, SINGLE means an axle with one tire mounted on each end, while DUAL means an axle with two tires mounted on each end. The loads indicated represent the total weight of an axle end in an RV application. When one axle end weighs more than the other, use the heaviest of the two end weights to determine the unique tire pressure for all tires on the axle. The maximum cold air pressure for each axle may vary, depending on their weights. These tables are applicable for all RV axles, whether or not they are power-driven.
To download the Load & Inflation Tables click DOWNLOAD at the bottom of the page.
http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/tires-retreads/load-inflation-tables.jsp
I have always used the tire manufacturer load tables to determine amount of pressure for each tire, I had the coach weighed and used that and the load tables. My placard states 120 lbs! If you wanted a really rough ride then I guess you could pump them up to that level but that would not be my choice since my tires booklet shows that I don't need to do that.

Ray

2000 Intrigue 11040

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83889
George

As I have stated here before many times, in 2008 I had two Toyo tires on my front steering wheels blow out. If I had not gained control of the coach I would not be here today writing this email.

Walt

2004 Inspire

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83890
George

Glad you like your Toyo tires. I can not say the same. In the third year of use, I lost two inside duels in less then a year. I would not put Toyo' s on my coach.
Wayne. 2003 Magna

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83891
Steve where did you get a $500 price range for Bridgestone F250's? They were over $800 when I was looking!

Vick Welsh

99 Intrigue 10714

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83892
If you look at the tables do you see a 12R anywhere? Do you notice the tire pressure you need for the 275 R 70 for 13, 500 lbs on the front axle. Well in 98 thru 2000 in order to reach that rated pressure with more than 800 more lbs on the left front than the right it was beyond the rating of the wheel and tire. What they publish today is different from what they published in 98 and 99. Look back at the postings from 98 & 99 to early 2000 and you;ll get confirmation about inflating tires as recommended by CC. Or join the CC Friends group and attend the rally in Albany next year and listen to what CC says about tires and ask them about what they said back then. Call john at Les Schwab in Junction City, they supplied all of the tires for CC and most of Monaco s. Tire manufacturers still don't stand behind their tires, especially Michelin, its the dealer and the coach manufacturer you have to deal with if you have tire issues. You want to hear double talk, speak to a tire rep at a FMCA rally. CC depended on the tire manufacturer on the 275R70, and what did it get them, recalls, pissed off owners, and destroyed coaches. I had four different sets of 275's sent to me over a 6 month period for the front axle. Telegrams, phone calls, registered letters were a monthly event concerning tires, over loading, tire pressure confirmation, ride height valves, etc. You think radiator issues are a pain! Refrigerators a worry. Well, compared to tires in the late 90's, they are no sweat! TWI 2004 intrigue 11731

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83893
I'm putting Hankooks on the front tomorrow morning. I posted it on the rv.net site and got nothing but positive opinions. I already have 4 on the rear and seam to be doing just fine

Steve & Jane

1998 Intrigue

#10557

______

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83894
Thomas - You wrote that you put on Continental 315s. I'm assuming that the 315 is the radial size and if so glad to hear that they fit as far as dual tire spacing. I was concerned about that. What is the model number of the Continentals that you installed?? I spoke to the Les Schwab tire store in Junction City by phone today and one of the tires they mentioned was Continental HSL1 which come in a 315 size. They also mentioned the Continental HSR2 which comes in a 12R22.5 and a Bridgestone R250 that also comes in a 12R22.5.
Thanks, Steve B

2002 Intrigue #11382 (36-foot)

Re: Time for new tires Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:03 am (PST) . Posted by: "thomas w insall jr" marslf56 Your not the only one to have the XZ2 fail due to cracking. Les Schwab in Junction City bought back the remaining time my XZ2 should have lasted. I put 315's Continentals on my coach. They have a 7 year warranty versus 5 years for the Michelins. By the way Michelin does not cover side wall cracking. As I mentioned previously, I've seen XZA2, XZ2 and others cracking as young as 12 to 18 months, but not XZE. Every time at a rally or a RV park I take a stroll I look at owners tires. The issue is not prevalent. My best guess is 2 or 3 out off 100. I've owned Continentals previously, when I had Toyo issues on my former 98 Allure with 275R70's that were under rated, by not only by Toyo, but Michelin, Goodyear, etc. That's when I changed to 275 R 80's. I drove them for 3 years, with a much superior ride than the Toyo. The 315's I am using now ride better and are quieter than my original 12R Toyo and ride as well as the XZ2, but because of the all-weather tread design are just a tad noisier like the Michelin XZA2. I run the same pressure as the 12R even though they are a larger tire with a higher weight rating, because I occasionally sustain speeds above 66 to 67 miles per hour on the flat lands of West Texas where the speed limit is 80 mph. 115 lbs front and Tag, 107 to 110 lbs drive axle. Read the fine print on the Continentals, on a 8.25 rim you can only inflate to the rating of the rim. And the carrying capacity is reduced a certain percentage. If you drive over 70 there is a further rating decrease. But they still surpass the 12R at 120 lbs by a significant margin. You can inflate Continentals to the published weight tables, unlike Toyo and Michelin which have to be inflated to the CC placard. With your lighter weight coach, that should be a significant difference. TWI 2004 intrigue 11731

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83906
The problem is simple. The coach mfg choose the smallest least costly tire and wheel to carry the load they expect. They don't always anticipate option like Tile floors and the cargo we choose to carry. As a result we are often overloaded for the chose tire. My SOB had a tire recall in the late 90s like CC. When I replaced my tires I went with Toyos, but I up sized them again. After 7 years, no complaints, except it's time to replaces them again.

Bob Wexler
SOB

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83915
"Glad you like your Toyo tires. I can not say the same. In the third year of use, I lost two inside duels in less then a year."

You just didn't give them a fighting chance.:-D

Ken

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83916
Vick, that was the number that the tire guy at Les Schwab in Anderson, CA told me (at least that was the number I remember when he was talking about Michelin versus Toyo versus Bridgestone). I could very possibly have heard wrong but he seemed to be making the point that Michelins were very high and others were significantly less. I didn't get anything in writing since I was just feeling them out for tire options.

Steve B

2002 Intrigue #11382 (36-foot)

Vick wrote: "Vick" vickwelsh Steve where did you get a $500 price range for Bridgestone F250's? They were over $800 when I was looking!

Vick Welsh

99 Intrigue 10714

Re: Time for new tires

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 83917
Sounds unusual that only the inside duals went bad. Are you sure the tires were properly sized? Not enough clearance would cause this to happen.

George

'04 Inspire 51061