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Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Yahoo Message Number: 88483
I have a continuing problem with the complete loss of power overnight when boondocking. I have not been able to resolve the problem for a year and a half. I am hoping someone else with an Intrigue or Magna has been able to solve the problem. Maybe my coach is the only one with the problem so I am open to suggestions as where to look. I can fully charge my coach batteries, unplug from 50 amp in the late afternoon and even with the audio/visual breaker cut off and all other appliances cut off (residential refrigerator plugged into a separate outside 120 source), my house battery bank will go down to 11.8 by 6:00 a. m. at which time the gen-start will activate and start the 10K generator.

I have replaced the batteries (now have four pair of Trojans) and the Xantrex inverter that was beginning to malfunction with a Magnum at Inverter Service Center, Whitehouse, TN (Nashville) where they unable to find the answer. I have been to Fountain RV in FL and they couldn't solve the problem. I talked with Silverleaf and they said it wasn't their unit that caused the problem. Something is causing the power drain. I've been told that a short somewhere would not cause the problem. (We have been boondockers for 14 years including a long a 4 months without plugging into electricity, so I know about phantom loads, etc. If I use the microwave for over 5 minutes, I start the generator and run it off the generator so I arm charging the batteries and not drawing them down.) We even have 500 watts of solar panels on top. We should be able to go several days without charging the batteries (even with the refrig. drawing about 11 to 12 amps an hour).
We should be only using less than half the battery bank in a couple of days with conservative use of electrical appliances and any sun will allow the solar to add to the bank during the day. Something is causing the drop from 12.6/12.5 (floating) to 11.8/11.7 overnight. If I am parking with others I have to cut off the gen-start so it won't wake them up at 5:30 or 6:00 a. m., then use the Battery Boost to get the generator started later. (Note that the inverter controller/battery monitor is new as a result in changing the inverter. Also, the battery monitor attached to the solar panels matches the read out of the inverter monitor either exactly or within one tenth. I have even used a meter to read the batteries in the morning to be certain they were really at 11.8 or lower.
Do I have the only coach that has had this problem? Like the little kid says, "Why me? Why me?" I am really frustrated. This problem really interferes with our basic lifestyle. Is there something in the electrical system of a 2006 Intrigue Ovation II (Magnas are exactly alike) that can possibly cause this?

Gene Merryman

2006 Intrigue Ovation II
CC #12005

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88485
Hi Gene - Not why this thread seems to be the start, but reflects 'Re:'? So, if this is a thread that has already been responded too, sorry to add to it...
I have no magic answer, as I'm just above novice on the electrical side of things. But, I have spent some good coin, sometimes also two or three times on the same problem - not to have it corrected. So, I can at least say 'I hear and understand your frustration!'.

Some sharp vets on this board, hoping they can help.

My thoughts would be the basics:

- It was bad before and after the inverter and related stuff was swapped out - New batteries. (Could be worth a double check that one does not have a freakish bad cell.) - Standard check for good grounds on all of the main wires. When in doubt, remove clean and put back on.
- What else has not been replaced, would be the next logical step. Transfer switches? Main power off switch? Door area off switch? - Did you have the problem before adding the Solar? If not, a double check of the wiring from the control? When dark at night, can you see any draw going back towards the SP control?
OK - Now, I'll step aside and let people who know some stuff step in. Please let us know when, not if, you find root cause - so we can all learn from your headache!

Best,
Smitty

04 Allure 31017
04 Allure Sold to a nice new owner! Now enjoying a 07 Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600 #6775
"We're ONDROAD for THEJRNY!" (Toad and Coach license plates, say Hi if you see us!)

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88487
The best way to isolate and find it is to put an amp meter in line and start disconnecting and pulling fuses till the draw goes away then fix that circuit. If you are in the Maryland area I can help you do this.

Mikee

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88494
If you are in float charge at 12.6-12.5, I would suspect your new batteries. They should gloat above 13 V.
The way Lifeline tested mine was to remove them from the coach, charge one pair at a time and do a load lest until the pair was at 50% SOC. then they tested the second pair, etc. they wanted a week to properly test 3 pair.

Bob Wexler

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88502
I am having the same problem with my coach. I want to sort out the correct procedure to determine the current draw on each circuit. I would ask anyone, with experience, please share their knowledge with me. I particularly want to clarify the following.
Do you have to have a meter to cover the total range of all the circuits? Do you put the meter or a shunt in series with the battery and the disconnect switch? Would a better method be to insert the meter probes across the individual circuit fuse? If, hopefully, I find a circuit with a higher than normal draw what things would I look for (Disconnecting appliances checking grounds etc)? Thanks

Fritz 1998Allure 30223

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88504
Mikee gave a good suggestion and it could be done easy with a clamp on AMP meter/ Volt meter. There are some out there that are somewhat reasonably priced now.

John

05 Inspire

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88505
Fritz,

A regular ammeter must be "in line" on each circuit to give you the reading of current draw (amps). You may be able to get a reading on a "clamp" ammeter if it is sensitive enough. Just clamp it over each suspected circuit wire and take a reading. I purchased one at Home Depot for about $80 but I have not used it on lower amp measurements yet.
Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure 30226

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88507
Daron

I think a clamp on metre is used for ac. A meter has to be in series with a dc circuit in order to read dc. Fritz From:

daronha@... ;
To:
;

Subject:

Re: [Country-Coach-Owners] Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down Sent:

Sat, Jun 8, 2013 6:14:01 PM

Fritz,

A regular ammeter must be "in line" on each circuit to give you the reading of current draw (amps). You may be able to get a reading on a "clamp" ammeter if it is sensitive enough. Just clamp it over each suspected circuit wire and take a reading. I purchased one at Home Depot for about $80 but I have not used it on lower amp measurements yet.
Daron Hairabedian, 98 Allure 30226

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88510
Most hand held Meters are limited to 10 Amps DC so watch hooking the meter in series. Higher Amp DC meters use either use a shunt or are "clamp on", I happen to have a clamp on DC meter that reads up to 500 Amps. It comes in handy.

Judy n Joe

98 Intrigue 10578

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88519
Gene,

Bob is correct, at float you should be at 13.2 or so. Something is wrong. The first two things to check are your new inverter and then your batteries. Your inverter needs to be set properly. I do not have a Magnum, but a Xantrex so I cannot tell you how to do it. How many DC amps is the inverter/charger kicking in at bulk when you discharge the batteries at least 30%? How many DC amps at float?

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88521
Actually, I got a very nice clamp ammeter at Sears that does both AC and DC for about $60 a few years ago. It works, even on my solar panels. Of course you have to do one wire at a time.

Rich 2002 Magna

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88525
Fritz,

You could start by putting a DC ammeter in place if each circuit's fuse. Look for unexpected flow You also should turn everything off and disconnect the battery and see what current is flowing...if any.
Clamp on ammeters are for AC.
Good luck.
Scott

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88529
You are correct and they do float at 13.2. I meant to say the individual battery banks check out to 12.6 (I have checked each individual battery and had techs check them). All of the batteries have been load tested by several different techs. The batteries I replaced actually checked out O. K., but because of their age and a real good price on the Trojans, I replaced them when I replaced the inverter.

I have gone through the settings on the inverter several times and Butch Williams checked it when I had him work on the problem during a week stay at Fountain RV in FL. I don't think that is the problem.
I am interested in learning more about "back feeding" relative to the solar system. Since few others seem to have this problem, may be it is related to the solar. May be I have a diode that has failed, or was not put in the system when it was transferred from my Allure to this coach.

Gene Merryman
2006 Intrigue
CC #12005

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88531
Clamp-on ammeters are great for AC, because they are measuring the change in the magnetic field resulting from the current flowing first one way, then the other. If you are measuring DC, however, all you can measure is the strength, in total, of the magnetic field. Now, if you are talking high level DC current flow, that is fine because ambient magnetic fields can be ignored. But if you want to measure a few amps, you cannot do it accurately unless you use a series DC ammeter.

Al Colby

2000 Intrigue 10979

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88532
I recently purchased an ammeter that has a short cord which plugs into a 12v fuse location And reads the current for that particular fuse location. Bob 06intrigue 12047

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88533
I use a DC clamp on ammeter that reads from 100 milliamperes to 200 amps The new Technology uses a device called a Hall affect sensor My meter was over $200 Bob 06 intrigue 12047

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88534
Yep...I am out of date...happens to us retired guys. "Hall effect" sensors are wonderful things.
Scott

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88536
I still say lower lever DC amperage measurements can only be done accurately in series. This is from Wikipedia if you look up "Hall Effect":

Disadvantages compared with other methods
Magnetic flux from the surroundings (such as other wires) may diminish or enhance the field the Hall probe intends to detect, rendering the results inaccurate. Also, as Hall voltage is often on the order of millivolts, the output from this type of sensor cannot be used to directly drive actuators but instead must be amplified by a transistor-based circuit.

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88537
Bogart Engineering make a DC monitor unit, Trimetric that shows all DC components amp usage and voltage in batteries. I check before going to bed if any amps are draining the batteries. You will also get a reading for how many amps any appliance are using or light are draining in your system. I installed the Trimetric in my sailboat and it removed all uncertainties about battery usage and state of charge. I am planing to install a Trimetric in my older CC Affinity 1996. Instructions are very detailed and easy to follow.

http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetric/manuals

Tom Buka

1996 Affinity, Cat 3176B 48,000 miles Sent from my ASUS Eee Pad

corralitos95076 wrote:

Clamp-on ammeters are great for AC, because they are measuring the change in the magnetic field resulting from the current flowing first one way, then the other. If you are measuring DC, however, all you can measure is the strength, in total, of the magnetic field. Now, if you are talking high level DC current flow, that is fine because ambient magnetic fields can be ignored. But if you want to measure a few amps, you cannot do it accurately unless you use a series DC ammeter.

Al Colby

2000 Intrigue 10979

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88602
I solved the same problem by removing and cleaning up the ground cables coming from the battery where they attach to the frame and reinstalling them. I had tested for the bad ground by hooking a set of jumper cables from the negative battery post to the frame and the units voltage held up as it should. The bad ground bled off the voltage. Good luck

Paul Burlingham
2006 Allure

Re: Electrical Problem/battery draw down

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 88623
Thank you for that idea. I'll remove and clean mine.
I unhooked all of the wiring from my solar panels to see if that was a factor, but it didn't help.

Gene Merryman

2006 Intrigue Ovation.