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Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Yahoo Message Number: 90920
I spent he weekend swapping the Norcold for a nice new Samsung RF197ACPN. It came REALLY fast from Reno, just 2 days after I ordered! I will make another post with some tricks on that install.

I initially tested the Samsung on shore power and everything was great. It cooled down really fast. I then swapped the plug circuit in the electrical panel to a breaker that is powered from the inverter. I turned it back on and immediately had a problem. The fridge started but the inverter started beeping and within about 10 seconds it showed and overload error and shut down. I shut off the other inverter breakers (to eliminate any other load) and tested again with the same result. :-(

Here is my inverter/battery setup:

Xantrex RV2012 (2000 watt modified sine wave - original equipment with the coach) RC7/GS Remote Panel
Echo Charger

2 E.P.M (Deka) Batteries (not sure of the model - nothing shows on them. They measure 20.25 long x 11 wide x 10 high.)

My Batteries picture Deka Battery Specs PDF - 8D? It looks like these are marine grade and not true deep cycle. Not sure if they are original or not.

So I have done a few other things to troubleshoot/isolate the problem:

1) I pulled the breaker cover and put an ammeter on the 120v circuit going to the Samsung plug. Upon startup it shows the Samsung is drawing about 1.2 amps. The Samsung compressor then starts and it jumps to 4.2 amps, and quickly settle back to 2.8 amps. The Xantrex then shuts off in an overload condition.
I checked the voltage at the battery during startup and it drops as low as 11.7 volts when the Xantrex overloads.

2) I wanted to determine if I was lacking battery capacity (or if my batteries are toast) so I isolated my 2 12v chassis batteries and hooked my Xantrex up to them. The same overload occurred. I know they are not deep cycle batteries, but think they should have worked for a test.

3) It doesn't seems that the load from the Samsung is enough to put the Xantrex into overload mode, even considering the inrush of the compressor motor starting. The Xantrex has a surge rating of 44 amps AC, but it doesn't say for how long.

4) I fully charged the EPM/Deka batteries, isolated the load from them and have let them sit 4 hours to allow the surface charge to dissipate. They are reading 12.7 volts now (which would indicate close to 100% charge). I have not done a load test yet nor checked the specific gravity. I have not done an equalization charge to them either.

Because we are relatively new to the coach, I can't say that we have much experience with the current battery runtime and how they perform on their own (without generator or shore power)

How do I isolate it as an inverter or a battery issue? If it is the batteries, I'm not sure I want to put a nice new set of deep cycle batteries in with the older Xantrex and echo charger.

Thoughts?
Dan

2006 Allure 430 with tag and warm drinks currently :-) #31344

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90921
Dan,

Will the inverter run you microwave? It should.

Barney

07 Inspire 52059

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90925
Dan,

It sounds like you have been systematic with your tests but Barney brings up a good question to test the capability of the battery/inverter combination which still does not isolate which might be the problem.
I can tell you that I had pretty much the same setup when I switched to Samsung (on my previous 05 Inspire) and it worked great so I wouldn't just assume that the older generation (MSW) inverter is at fault.
Batteries appear to be 8D's and Deka is a good brand so a load test and or a specifc gravity test should give some indication.

John

08 Intrigue
10 Ford Escape

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90929
Thanks for the good ideas. I did some more tests.

1) The microwave will not run, it errors out with the same overload condition as the as the Samsung. It draws about 3 amps before overloading. This did run before, so something has changed.

2) I grabbed a blow dryer that draws 1200 watts on high and about 600 watts on low and plugged it into the microwave outlet. It will run just fine on low and draws 5.1 amps, but switching it to high causes the same overload and subsequent shutdown. When you switch to high, the amp reading doesn't increase much, but it sounds bad, like not enough juice and the inverter immediately errors.

3) To eliminate any errors with the coach wiring and isolate the inverter, I removed the 120V feed to the coach, right at the inverter and replaced it with a short section of cord with a receptacle on the end. I plugged the blow dryer in and fired up the inverter and had the exact same errors as before. Runs OK on low, errors on high. I did hear the internal fan kick on right before it errors, but it shuts off when it overloads.

Blow Dryer test at inverter - isolated from coach
4) In the warehouse for the printing company I manage, I noticed we have a small Zamboni that cleans the floor. I opened it up and found 4 6 volt Deka 8C6V batteries in it, 330 AH and each weighing 100 lbs! Very nice batteries! They had a full charge and were only a year old, so I quickly pulled them and hooked them up, 2 each in series (to get 12v) and then those 2 12v sets in parallel (for capacity), so roughly 660 AH. They tested at 12.8 volts with no load.

8C6V Deka Batteries - 660 AH
I tried the microwave and it still would not run. The blow dryer hooked up right at the inverter also tested the same, OK on low and overload on high.

So at this point I have all but eliminated the batteries as an issue and am about 99% sure that my Xantrex has seen better days!

I also checked the setup menu on the RC7/GS panel and didn't see anything that would affect load. Is there anything else to check before I go inverter hunting?

Inverter Choices
It seems that the Magnum MS-2812 is the favorite in RV land. Is there anything else to consider? What about Outback? I know that Midnight Solar also makes very good components, but I don't think they make an inverter yet.

I would love to have a connected inverter, meaning that it is accessible via an interface for management or setup (logging, diagnostics etc.) via a network interface (wired or wireless) or maybe even via an app. This would be awesome to see trends and particularly if I ever hook it up to a solar array. Anyone doing this?

Thanks for the direction!
Dan

2006 Allure 430 with tag
#31344

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90933
Dan, Prior to running a load test on batteries I would call the Xantrex Tech Support group (Snyder Elect) @ 800-670-0707 I've found them to be very good at helping you run through troubleshooting while at your unit.

Mike 03 Allure 1st Ave. #30898

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90944
I've got the Magnum MS2812 PSW inverter and it seems to work fine.
Magnum Energy at least picks up their phone and returns calls in a reasonable length of time. Something to consider along the support lines these days. Good quality high power electronics equipment is expensive. You can use the existing RJ11 connector and cable for the remote control. You'll need to make a new beauty plate to mount it, however, in the existing Xantrex hole. As for auto gen start, I had to run an additional wire to get that capability working. Have never used this. And the communications link to the Silverleaf will be broken which isn't a big deal.

I've got pictures of the battery bay before and after the replacement. The internet sucks right now so I can't get the links.
You can visit www.muniac.com and look at the bus pictures to see how this was all done. I need to make two riser brackets. Good luck.

Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90946
Old inverter out:

http://muniac.smugmug.com/Travel/Country-Coach-2006-430-Allure/i-Nh7nPqj/0/M/Battery_Bay-M.jpg Magnum in:

http://muniac.smugmug.com/Travel/Country-Coach-2006-430-Allure/i-xNzNvSs/0/M/IMG_3270-M.jpg
Best - Scott

2006 Allure 430 40' #31349

(Bus-Stead Lemon) My Allure Page http://www.muniac.com/Allure%20Page.html

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90948
Scott, my MS2812 is toast right now and I think it will need to be replaced (just got off the phone with Magnum...very helpful folks). Did you do anything to improve air flow/ventilation in that small space? Mine has two muffin fans. Both churn but only one seems to really move any air. Also, all the wires and stuff in front of the inverter looks like it will be a bear to R & R the heavy thing.

Gary

Re: Swapped Norcold for Samsung - won't run on Xantrex

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 90952
Thanks for the number. I called them and after 15 min on hold, got voicemail. They did call me back in about 2 hours, so not too bad.
We determined that the internal circuitry is damaged. The end all test is putting a pure resistive load on the inverter and seeing how it responds. Resitive loads do not have any inrush surge and have a power factor of 1, so ideal for testing. A heater (without a motor or fan), lightbulbs, quartz lamps etc. work well for this.
They do not repair the units and say there are not any user replaceable parts inside. I may crack it open to see what I can find.
So it appears that Xantrex and Norcold are half brothers or part of the same family or something, for one must have gotten lonely when the other was gone! Lets just hope that my aluminum radiator isn't part of that family! :-)
I am looking at Outback Inverters. They have a great following in the Solar community and do have an interface (Mate3) that is fully accessible and configurable via a network. I'll post what I find.

Thanks for the direction in troubleshooting the issue.

Dan

2006 Allure 430 with tag
#31344