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Charging Batteries

Yahoo Message Number: 8444
Please, can one of the electrical garu's help me solve a question in my mind.
Am having problems with the engine battery staying charged and have noted that when charging with the generator, the voltage at the inverter controller is 14.4 to 14.7, which I assume is plenty to allow the echo charger to divert charging to the engine battery, as I have to assume the controller is actually reading the house batteries.
Conversly, when the engine is running, even at cruise speed, the same reading is only 12.4 to 12.6????? I am thinking this is not even enough to fully charge the house batteries and thus none is getting to the engine battery when charging with the alternator, or cruising, and possibly the reason my enging battery is not getting and staying fully charged.
Is this an indication that the alternator is not providing the proper output, as I recally in studying "Learning to Live on 12 Volts" that a minimum of `12.8 was always the cut off for alternators or generators charging the boat batteries, and I used a manual controller which took them to 14.4 volts normally, after bulk charging was completed.

Please, comments in laymans terms

Regards

Ron and Molly, '01 Intrigue # 11262, San Diego

Re: Charging Batteries

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8479
--

Ron and Molly:

A few points to consider while trouble shooting your problem; Forget the meter on the dash. while it may be correct , it is mostly to alert you to change of status.
As stated by others a quality meter should become part of your standard equipment. Most electrical houses carry a good selection, even radio shack can provide good ones.
I would start with every thing off and the disconnects off and measure the voltage of the engine battery and the house batteries. On the house measuring the nominal voltage of one, gets both at the same time as they parralleled. You would have to lift a terminal to get seperate voltages. At this point that is not important.
Of course you wrote the voltages down.
Start the engine and now read the batteries again. If all is correct the voltages on all should be close to each other as all batteries are now in parrallel.

Now if not there are several things to check If the engine battery is up to say 13.6 or higher then your alternator is putting out. (forget about what it does after you shut the engine down fo the time being) If the house batteries voltage does not rise much there is a problem with the oil pressure switch that CC installs to combine the batteries when the engine is running. This can be verified by having someone press the battery combiner switch on the shifter console while the engine is running while you are looking at the coach batteries voltage. It should go up indicating a state of charging.

All is not lost if this oil switch does not work but understand the only time your house batteries will be on charge is when you are running the generator or when you are connected to campground power.
Personally mine has worked this way for more than 2 years.(oil switch not working)

Now back to that engine battery, after shutting down the engine look at that engine battery voltage . If it is down again, say at 12 volts or less and dropping some, you are most likely looking at a bad cell.
Mine hung in that condition for several months but a check of the specific gravity of each cell will probably show the weak or failed cell.
If your inverter is doing it's job of getting the house batteries up (especially if it is the only sourse of charging the house bsatteries) there will be little reserve to put charge into the engine battery. It is not as powerful a charge by a long shot like your alternator.
If, and I say if you trust a local battery supplier to investigat the condition of the engine battery , they can verify a bad cell . I would not let them advise you about your charging capabilities.

Last resort and maybe "your" best resort is find a good CC dealer.
I, for one, prefer to understand and track out my own problems. It becomes enjoyable after a point really understanding how this stuff works.

I truly hope this has been of some assistance.

james M. Green Intrigue 11021 "Rollingghetto"

- In Country-Coach-Owners@yahoogroups.com, Bodie6413@a... wrote:
Quote
Please, can one of the electrical garu's help me solve a question in

my mind.

Quote
> Am having problems with the engine battery staying charged and have

noted

Quote
that when charging with the generator, the voltage at the inverter
controller is

Quote
14.4 to 14.7, which I assume is plenty to allow the echo charger to

divert

Quote
charging to the engine battery, as I have to assume the controller

is actually

Quote
reading the house batteries.

Conversly, when the engine is running, even at cruise speed, the

same reading

Quote
is only 12.4 to 12.6????? I am thinking this is not even enough to

fully

Quote
charge the house batteries and thus none is getting to the engine

battery when

Quote
charging with the alternator, or cruising, and possibly the reason my

enging

Quote
battery is not getting and staying fully charged.

Is this an indication that the alternator is not providing the
proper output,

Quote
as I recally in studying "Learning to Live on 12 Volts" that a

minimum of

Quote
`12.8 was always the cut off for alternators or generators charging

the boat

Quote
batteries, and I used a manual controller which took them to 14.4
volts normally,

Re: Charging Batteries

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8493
I find that when troubleshooting 12VDC low voltage problems, it is best to start at the source. The battery is most likely the culprit. I see that you have a 2001 coach. So, I assume that you still have the original battery. The best way to check the condition of a battery is to check the specific gravity and do a load test.
Since most people do not have the equipment to do a load test, then a good hydrometer is the tool of choice. Any specific gravity above
1.265 is a good cell and is fully charged. Any cell that is not
within .010-.025 points of the other cells is suspect of being bad.
A good load test can verify this. Of course any cell that has no indication at all is dead and the battery is in need of replacement.

Jim Hughes

2000 Allure #30511

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8512
In a recent coach wiring discussion someone mentioned the existence of a spare wire from the dash to the rear of the coach.
I am in the process of installing a Toad brake system and *really* need to locate that wire. In the schematics, I have found a wire #425 Red which runs from the RC plug to the DC-3 plug and is shown as not used.
Problem is I have not been able to locate the RC or DC-3 plugs. I found DC-1 and DC-2, in the shift console, but no joy on the ones I need.
Is this the wire that was discussed? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Any help is greatly appreciated!!
Dave

2000 Allure 36'

#30444 blt. Sept. 1999

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8513
Dave:

I found some spares (three of them I think) that were coiled up in the front dash area. They were tucked into the outside (right) corner behind the panel in front of the passanger seat. The other ends were in the right (curbside) rear

behind the air intake/filter panel. All the spare wires are spare on each, IE they

are not part of any connector. (that I have found)

Good luck.
Jim

2002 Intrigue #11446

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8520
Thanks, Jim.

This gives me a place to start. Found a cable with 6 spares under the domestic fuse panel in the service bay as you suggested. I have not found the other end yet. I did find three spares in the right hand dash area, but they do not connect to the ones under the fuse panel. Looks like I'll be getting a cable tracer in the morning as was suggested by another poster.
Dave

2000 Allure 36'
#30444

Jim Cook wrote:

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Found !!!

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8527
Ahhhh! sweet success!!

I located a wire running from the service bay to a well concealed hidey hole, just behind the HWH leveling computer box panel. The cable tracer was just the ticket, picked up the signal just above the HWH box and a hand reach behind it fished out a pair of spare wires - one of which terminated in the service bay. Some rainy day I'll find out where the other one goes. Took less than 10 minutes.
Thank You Max, for an excellent suggestion and also Jim for showing me where to look.

Dave

2000 Allure 36'

#30444 blt. Sept. 1999

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Found !!!

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8535
Dave:

Glad your found them. I too had to use a Fox and Hound to find my wires.
My effort was the other way around.. I found the ones up front (they were easy in my Intrigue) but could not find them in the rear rear of the MH.

Bless Country Coach for putting in spares!
FYI: I have also found spares (one end of them anyway) under the gas range, behind the water heater and under the fridge.

Jim Cook

2002 Intrigue #11446
www.al7rv.net

ps: Dave are you installing a US Gear system? If so I wonder were you picked

up the brake light lead. ( I used a small relay in the dash rather then the

diode at the pressure switches).

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Found !!!

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8536
Jim,

Yes, I am finding them all over the coach as well. When I find some "spare" time I may track them down and document their locations for some future use.

It is a US Gear system. I have not yet chased down the brake light switch lead, although I did find the wire # in the shift console.
Hopefully it will show up somewhere under the dash. I did not like the diode arrangement either. Friday I ordered some relays which should be in hand Monday evening. I am installing relays for all the Toad lights, that is tail lights, turn signals, and brake lights.

Jim Cook wrote:

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Found !!!

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8537
Dave:

I did the same thing on my Jeep. The relays are driven by the MH. I get much brighter lights by using the Jeep battery to run them! It's great.
Also

installed a marine type circuit breaker to feed the US battery charger CB.
I had the marine breaker in stock, it has a built in 'switch', I liked the idea

of being able to remove the 12v from the brake light connector with the switch.

I did not use the US wires, I put spares in the towed lighting cable to use.
Used the brake lead (control, not lights) for the US gear signal. The connector had a pin for the a 'charge' lead so I used that one for the DC battery charger power..

Clean, neat, works great.
Jim

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8542
Dave,

What exactly is a cable tracer. Cost? Where can one get one?

Thanks
Steve

Intrigue #10673

Quote from: Dave Hills\[br\
]
Thanks, Jim.

This gives me a place to start. Found a cable with 6 spares under the > domestic fuse panel in the service bay as you suggested. I have not > found the other end yet. I did find three spares in the right hand

dash

Quote
area, but they do not connect to the ones under the fuse panel. Looks > like I'll be getting a cable tracer in the morning as was suggested by > another poster.

Dave

2000 Allure 36'
#30444

Jim Cook wrote:

>Dave:
>

>I found some spares (three of them I think) that were coiled up in

the front

Quote
dash area. They were tucked into the outside (right) corner behind

the panel

Quote
in

>front of the passanger seat. The other ends were in the right

(curbside)

Quote
rear

>behind the air intake/filter panel. All the spare wires are spare

on each,

Quote
IE they

>are not part of any connector. (that I have found) > >

>Good luck.
>
>Jim

>2002 Intrigue #11446
>
>

>

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8543
It's made up of two parts a tone unit and a probe.
You connect the tone unit to a wire (or two wires) an ground. You can then use the probe to 'sniff' out the wire in another location, the probe has a speaker that lets you hear the tone when you get near the correct wire.

Home Depot has them in the tool section with the telephone wire and connectors. The model they sell is most like telephone folks use. I have a 'fox and hound' model that can be used on hot AC power circuts. Both work fine in the MH on 12volt (or dead) wires.

Jim

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8544
Sorry, cost is about $80 or so. I've seen some models as low as $60 and some as high as $180.00. They all work about the same just differ in being able to handle 'live' voltages.
Jim

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8550
David:

Yes it will work on fully insulated wires. The probe on the end of the sniffer is covered with plastic to avoid contact with exposed terminals and wires. Telephone type of unit(s) do not do a good job of filtering out the power hum you get on 120/240 AC. They will work but sometimes the hum makes it hard to hear the tone. Telephone type units also may not stand being connetected to 'live' power. CHECK THE BOOK!

Know what your doing when working with live AC. ! PLEASE !!!
Fox and Hound (as they are called) units are made for AC power work. Filters installed in the probe reduce the level of the AC hum and allow you to hear the tone on the wire.
A lot of factors affect how well your can hear the tone (by induction), most of the time by getting within 12 inches of the wire you will start to hear the tone (it's a warble) and as you move the probe closer to the correct wire the tone gets real loud.
If you want to get real crazy you can use the tone and sniffer to find underground pipes and wires. You need a pickup up coil with amp for use with the sniffer. It's not a good as 'real' underground locating equipment but it will work pinch.

Good luck!

Jim Cook

2002 Intrigue #11446

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8560
It consists of two devices, a "tone generator" and a "sniffer". You attach the generator to the wire you wish to trace and use the sniffer to probe around where you think (hope) the wire may go. As you approach the wire the sniffer will beep and the closer you get the louder the beep. It is VERY sensitive and I picked up my wire about 2 feet away from it's location. From there it was easy to pick out, although it was hidden behind a wood fiber panel.

I got mine at Altex electronics. They have stores in San Antonio, Austin, Dallas and Houston, I think, and you can also order from their web site.

http://www.altex.com/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=467b1cb078a858647583ed8ea42cddd1&keywords=711k&osCsid=467b1cb078a858647583ed8ea42cddd1&x=0&y=0
It is item #711K and is $99. A well made - made in USA product as well. I live just north of Austin, so I picked one up at the store here.

This will get a lot of use on my coach.

Dave

2000 Allure 36'

#30444 blt. Sept. 1999

rheavn wrote:

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8567
Dave,

Confirming Jim's comments. I have a 2000 40' Allure and have used the spare wires as well. They is a pair of wires marked with a label "D". One end is butt capped and is in the "dog house" in front of the passenger seat. They come up in a bundle of wires through the floor in the far right corner. The other end is located inside a loom bundle in the right rear compartment where the water/fuel filters and DC panel are. Look in the upper right hand corner where the wiring comes into that compartment close to the DC fuse panel is. There are a total of three pairs that are butt capped in that bundle. Use the pair marked "D". The wires are 12ga and are continous. The two other pair are located in the kitchen and bedroom areas.

Good luck....

Jim Hughes

2000 Allure #30511

Quote from: Jim Cook

Dave:

I found some spares (three of them I think) that were coiled up in

the front

Quote
dash area. They were tucked into the outside (right) corner behind

the panel

Quote
in

front of the passanger seat. The other ends were in the right

(curbside)

Quote
rear

behind the air intake/filter panel. All the spare wires are spare

on each,

Quote
IE they

are not part of any connector. (that I have found) >

Good luck.

Jim

2002 Intrigue #11446

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8580
Thanks, Jim,

Good info. I did locate the needed wire, but none I found had a marker on them.
Dave

2000 Allure 36'

#30444 blt. Sept. 1999

Jim Hughes wrote:

Re: 2000 Allure - Spare Wire Location ??

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 8597
Dave,

On my coach the pairs were marked 'B' - bedroom; 'G' - Galley & 'D' - Dash.
Jim

2000 Allure #30511

Quote from: Dave Hills\[br\
]
Thanks, Jim,

Good info. I did locate the needed wire, but none I found had a

marker

Quote
on them.

Dave

2000 Allure 36'

#30444 blt. Sept. 1999

Jim Hughes wrote:

>Dave,
>

>Confirming Jim's comments. I have a 2000 40' Allure and have used > >the spare wires as well. They is a pair of wires marked with a > >label "D". One end is butt capped and is in the "dog house" in

front

Quote
of the passenger seat. They come up in a bundle of wires through

the

Quote
floor in the far right corner. The other end is located inside a > >loom bundle in the right rear compartment where the water/fuel > >filters and DC panel are. Look in the upper right hand corner

where

Quote
the wiring comes into that compartment close to the DC fuse panel > >is. There are a total of three pairs that are butt capped in that > >bundle. Use the pair marked "D". The wires are 12ga and are > >continous. The two other pair are located in the kitchen and

bedroom

Quote
areas.
>

>Good luck....
>

>Jim Hughes

>2000 Allure #30511
>

>-